The LeBron James Thread

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  • ex carrabba fan
    I'll thank him for you
    • Oct 2004
    • 32744

    #6706
    Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

    So to all the MJ/Kobe fans, do you believe Kobe or Wade or Durant or anyone could have taken any of James' teams to a ring?

    I just want to see you actually type 'yes'.

    Comment

    • Brankles
      Banned
      • May 2003
      • 5113

      #6707
      Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

      The only games Cleveland won were games 1 and 3, right?

      Game 1

      LeBron: 35 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 turnovers, +7

      Mo: 20 points, 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 turnover, +23

      Shaq: 11 points, 4 rebounds, 0 assists, 1 turnvoer, +1

      Ant: 7 points, 9 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 turnovers, +11


      Game 3

      Bron: 38 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 turnover, +30

      Mo: 12 points, 3 rebounds, 7 assists, 0 turnovers, +20

      Shaq: 12 points, 9 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 turnovers, +22

      Ant: 20 points, 12 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 turnover, +27




      So if he wasn't dropping 35, 7 and 7, they were going to lose. How many other stars had that kind of responsibility on their shoulders?

      Comment

      • Jasong7777
        All Star
        • May 2005
        • 6415

        #6708
        Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

        Well we damn sure know that Lebron couldn't and then all together stopped trying. Picked up his tent and moved to Miami to play second fiddle. Guess he'll get that title now.
        Redskins, Lakers, Orioles, UNC Basketball , and ND Football
        PSN: Jasong757
        Xbox Live: Monado X

        Comment

        • wwharton
          *ll St*r
          • Aug 2002
          • 26949

          #6709
          Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

          Originally posted by Brankles
          And my point is that the Cavs didn't have a chance of winning with the way that LeBron's supporting cast was playing. A few "mediocre" games from LeBron and that's all it took for them to get knocked out of the playoffs from the Celtics. Other players on other teams had the luxury to have an off game and LeBron didn't.

          LeBron's teams were so good because LeBron was so good. They won 66 games playing "give the ball to LeBron and watch" basketball. And when teams schemed around that in the playoffs, the Cavs lost. There was no one to defer to, no one to help carry the team when LeBron was tired or his jumper was off.

          So yes, LeBron had some bad games. The difference between the Cavs and the Lakers/Celtics/Magic was that Cleveland wasn't capable of winning when their superstar had an off night, but those teams were.



          Are you saying there's another player alive right now that could have won a championship with that team? Because that's a whole other Pandora's Box I don't really want to get into right now, and it involves Dwyane Wade and Kobe Bryant failing with similar supporting casts.
          How were they playing? I watched all the games too and have spent years of watching games from more of a coach's perspective than a player or fan's perspective. I think you have the impression that it was similar to game 7 of the finals where Kobe was getting double and triple teamed, kicking it to wide open teammates on the wing or taking advantage of them not double teaming Gasol in the post. This was nothing like that. The wrong players were on the court for one, but even ignoring that, Jamison was never used properly. There wasn't much of an offense to speak of. Either James decided to pound the rock into the ground or Brown instructed him to do so... unless there were nothing but spot up shooters and offensive rebounders around him, that's not the best look for a team to succeed. So the talk of James quitting, well yeah... if that's the gameplan on offense and the guy in the middle of it quits, it's going to be pretty impossible for the players around to pick up the slack.

          The stats have been posted, the career averages of the players are known. The season averages of the players are known. We'll never know if that team could win a championship bc it no longer exists but there are much more logical reasons to collectively determine it's failure than ignoring things we do know to support the argument "his teammates sucked".

          Comment

          • Brankles
            Banned
            • May 2003
            • 5113

            #6710
            Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

            Originally posted by Jasong7777
            Well we damn sure know that Lebron couldn't and then all together stopped trying. Picked up his tent and moved to Miami to play second fiddle. Guess he'll get that title now.
            Michael couldn't do it. Kobe couldn't do it. Wade couldn't do it.

            But LeBron was supposed to do it. And when he couldn't you call him heartless and not a leader.


            As much as I dislike LeBron, it really sucks that people think this way about him

            Comment

            • wwharton
              *ll St*r
              • Aug 2002
              • 26949

              #6711
              Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

              Originally posted by Brankles
              The only games Cleveland won were games 1 and 3, right?

              Game 1

              LeBron: 35 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 turnovers, +7

              Mo: 20 points, 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 turnover, +23

              Shaq: 11 points, 4 rebounds, 0 assists, 1 turnvoer, +1

              Ant: 7 points, 9 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 turnovers, +11


              Game 3

              Bron: 38 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 turnover, +30

              Mo: 12 points, 3 rebounds, 7 assists, 0 turnovers, +20

              Shaq: 12 points, 9 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 turnovers, +22

              Ant: 20 points, 12 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 turnover, +27




              So if he wasn't dropping 35, 7 and 7, they were going to lose. How many other stars had that kind of responsibility on their shoulders?
              It REALLY doesn't work like that, and honestly if you don't know that (I think you're stretching to prove a point) it's not really worth trying to explain.

              Comment

              • King_B_Mack
                All Star
                • Jan 2009
                • 24450

                #6712
                Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

                Originally posted by Brankles
                The only games Cleveland won were games 1 and 3, right?

                Game 1

                LeBron: 35 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 turnovers, +7

                Mo: 20 points, 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 turnover, +23

                Shaq: 11 points, 4 rebounds, 0 assists, 1 turnvoer, +1

                Ant: 7 points, 9 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 turnovers, +11


                Game 3

                Bron: 38 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 turnover, +30

                Mo: 12 points, 3 rebounds, 7 assists, 0 turnovers, +20

                Shaq: 12 points, 9 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 turnovers, +22

                Ant: 20 points, 12 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 turnover, +27




                So if he wasn't dropping 35, 7 and 7, they were going to lose. How many other stars had that kind of responsibility on their shoulders?
                Responsibility? They scored 100+ in both games. Didn't realize that 35 and 38 made up such a large part of 100 now.

                Let's look at the Lakers' losses to the C's

                Game 2

                Kobe: 21 points, 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 5 turnovers, -9

                Pau: 25 points, 8 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 turnover, -12

                Artest: 6 points, 5 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 turnovers, 0

                Bynum: 21 points, 6 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 turnovers, -1

                Oh noz they suck, they need Kobe to score 30 or more just to win

                Game 4

                Kobe: 33 points, 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 7 turnovers, -8

                Pau: 21 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 turnovers, -9

                Artest: 9 points, 7 rebounds, 3 assists, 0 turnovers, +1

                Bynum: 2 points, 3 rebounds, 0 assists, 1 turnovers, +1

                Game 5

                Kobe: 38 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 turnovers, -6

                Pau: 12 points, 12 rebounds, 0 assists, 1 turnover, -7

                Artest: 7 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 turnover, 0

                Bynum: 6 points, 1 rebound, 0 assists, 1 turnover, -12

                So in addition to the myth that Bron got no help from his squad and won games by himself, we have the myth that Kobe can have off nights and win cause his team performs in the playoffs. Those seem like fairly comparable numbers to what the Cavs guys did against the C's in their loses.

                Originally posted by ex carrabba fan
                So to all the MJ/Kobe fans, do you believe Kobe or Wade or Durant or anyone could have taken any of James' teams to a ring?

                I just want to see you actually type 'yes'.
                Durant? Probably not, too young and he's likely to put up the same numbers as Bron (minus the rebound totals)

                Wade and Kobe? I'd say yes, with THIS team that Bron had they'd win a title or at least make it past Boston. It wasn't impossible, the Cavs just quit following they're "leader's" example.

                Comment

                • Jasong7777
                  All Star
                  • May 2005
                  • 6415

                  #6713
                  Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

                  I guess my point is that we really don't know what that team could have accomplished. So saying that they would have never won is not true cause we don't know. And bringing other superstars into the convo is a waste of time, because we don't know if they could have won with the cavs or not.
                  Redskins, Lakers, Orioles, UNC Basketball , and ND Football
                  PSN: Jasong757
                  Xbox Live: Monado X

                  Comment

                  • BlueNGold
                    Hall Of Fame
                    • Aug 2009
                    • 21817

                    #6714
                    Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

                    Originally posted by capp34
                    To the guys that are saying Lebron was the reason that Cleveland could not bring in talent to put around him. REALLY!!! Bosh could have went to Cleveland in a sign and trade but he chose not to. I wonder why? It sure wasn't because of Lebron.
                    Umm, no ****. Cold as hell Cleveland.....or nice and sunny Miami with Wade and James? Decisions, decisions.

                    Originally posted by King_B_Mack
                    Responsibility? They scored 100+ in both games. Didn't realize that 35 and 38 made up such a large part of 100 now.

                    Let's look at the Lakers' losses to the C's

                    Game 2

                    Kobe: 21 points, 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 5 turnovers, -9

                    Pau: 25 points, 8 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 turnover, -12

                    Artest: 6 points, 5 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 turnovers, 0

                    Bynum: 21 points, 6 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 turnovers, -1

                    Oh noz they suck, they need Kobe to score 30 or more just to win

                    Game 4

                    Kobe: 33 points, 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 7 turnovers, -8

                    Pau: 21 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 turnovers, -9

                    Artest: 9 points, 7 rebounds, 3 assists, 0 turnovers, +1

                    Bynum: 2 points, 3 rebounds, 0 assists, 1 turnovers, +1

                    Game 5

                    Kobe: 38 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 turnovers, -6

                    Pau: 12 points, 12 rebounds, 0 assists, 1 turnover, -7

                    Artest: 7 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 turnover, 0

                    Bynum: 6 points, 1 rebound, 0 assists, 1 turnover, -12

                    So in addition to the myth that Bron got no help from his squad and won games by himself, we have the myth that Kobe can have off nights and win cause his team performs in the playoffs. Those seem like fairly comparable numbers to what the Cavs guys did against the C's in their loses.



                    Durant? Probably not, too young and he's likely to put up the same numbers as Bron (minus the rebound totals)

                    Wade and Kobe? I'd say yes, with THIS team that Bron had they'd win a title or at least make it past Boston. It wasn't impossible, the Cavs just quit following they're "leader's" example.
                    Wait, wait, wait. The same Kobe that has quit on his team in the past as well? The same Kobe that, if it wasn't for Pau Gasol and the rest of that stacked Lakers team, has never been able to beat Boston by himself, which he would've had to do were he on last year's Cavs team? Sorry, but I don't see it.
                    Originally posted by bradtxmale
                    I like 6 inches. Its not too thin and not too thick. You get the support your body needs.



                    Comment

                    • ex carrabba fan
                      I'll thank him for you
                      • Oct 2004
                      • 32744

                      #6715
                      Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

                      No it isn't a waste of time to bring in other franchise players. It builds context.

                      We don't know what other players could have done, but I wouldn't expect a ring with Kobe or Wade at the helm of any of those Cleveland teams. With James, a lot of folks, including myself expected a title.

                      For the last time, James' teammates didn't "suck", so stop even posting that nonsense or implying that's what anyone's saying. I saw a post with that garbage in it.

                      Like I said we've all seen what "the greatest player of today" did with Cleveland level talent, and he got absolutely nowhere and cried and cried and cried and cried to the media and demanded a trade.

                      That same player quit on his team in more ways than one.

                      Comment

                      • Brankles
                        Banned
                        • May 2003
                        • 5113

                        #6716
                        Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

                        Originally posted by wwharton
                        How were they playing? I watched all the games too and have spent years of watching games from more of a coach's perspective than a player or fan's perspective. I think you have the impression that it was similar to game 7 of the finals where Kobe was getting double and triple teamed, kicking it to wide open teammates on the wing or taking advantage of them not double teaming Gasol in the post. This was nothing like that. The wrong players were on the court for one, but even ignoring that, Jamison was never used properly. There wasn't much of an offense to speak of. Either James decided to pound the rock into the ground or Brown instructed him to do so... unless there were nothing but spot up shooters and offensive rebounders around him, that's not the best look for a team to succeed. So the talk of James quitting, well yeah... if that's the gameplan on offense and the guy in the middle of it quits, it's going to be pretty impossible for the players around to pick up the slack.

                        The stats have been posted, the career averages of the players are known. The season averages of the players are known. We'll never know if that team could win a championship bc it no longer exists but there are much more logical reasons to collectively determine it's failure than ignoring things we do know to support the argument "his teammates sucked".
                        The Lakers tried building around Kobe after Shaq left. They gave him spot-up shooters, rebounders, role players. Then after missing the playoffs once, getting knocked out of the playoffs twice, they decided to build a team like every other championship team ever built... by giving him talent and not just role players. Same with Wade. The Heat were Cavs-level until Wade got a late-prime Shaq, who averaged 20 a game that year.

                        You've acknowledged it many times in your argument. Teams cannot win with just one player. But somehow, the Cavs won 66 games playing very stupid basketball because they had one very good player. And they won the six seasons before that playing the same way.

                        The Cavs formula was wrong. Their coaching was bad. Their roster lacked championship talent. Yet for two years in a row the Cavs were front runners for the title. What was the common thread between their Finals run years ago and their season-best team this last year? Not Big Z. It was LeBron.

                        Whatever they put around him, he won. Year after year. Different coaches, different GMs, different teammates, he won. Not championships, because no one before him has ever done that with what he had, but he won games and got his teams deep into the playoffs.


                        I really don't see anything else LeBron could have done except kept averaging 35, 7 and 7 and winning games almost by himself, but how long would that have lasted? His body wears down, he plays the Magic, then the Lakers and it's unlikely he beats either of those teams like that. What he was asked to do has never been asked out of anyone else. He plays two bad games, and you all label him a loser and a sidekick.

                        You ignore his roster, his coaches, and look only at the success of his team. A team that was built around him, but at the same time built to fail. And when LeBron didn't drop his 35, 7 and 7, and played like a human his last two games, he gets blamed for the failure.

                        His role players were compliments not supplements. His coach was a yes-man, a guy who made his career off of riding LeBron's coattails. And while Kobe's GM was bringing in Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom and Ron Artest, LeBron's GM was bringing in Antawn Jamison, Jamario Moon, Anthony Parker and a near-retirement Shaq.


                        For some of you, he can't win this argument. He looked worn out and disinterested against the Celtics and you can't look past that.

                        I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt and look at it from the perspective of history, of other NBA legends, of current NBA stars and the standards they were asked to win under.

                        Expectations for LeBron to win a title with what he was given is unprecedented. But if you really think he should have accomplished those expectations, and that he was a quitter and a follower for not accomplishing those goals, go ahead and believe that. But you're really disregarding everything that has happened in basketball before him, in the NBA and even on the college level, and it's unfair to LeBron.

                        Comment

                        • Brankles
                          Banned
                          • May 2003
                          • 5113

                          #6717
                          Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

                          Originally posted by King_B_Mack
                          Responsibility? They scored 100+ in both games. Didn't realize that 35 and 38 made up such a large part of 100 now.

                          Let's look at the Lakers' losses to the C's

                          Game 2

                          Kobe: 21 points, 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 5 turnovers, -9

                          Pau: 25 points, 8 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 turnover, -12

                          Artest: 6 points, 5 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 turnovers, 0

                          Bynum: 21 points, 6 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 turnovers, -1

                          Oh noz they suck, they need Kobe to score 30 or more just to win

                          Game 4

                          Kobe: 33 points, 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 7 turnovers, -8

                          Pau: 21 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 turnovers, -9

                          Artest: 9 points, 7 rebounds, 3 assists, 0 turnovers, +1

                          Bynum: 2 points, 3 rebounds, 0 assists, 1 turnovers, +1

                          Game 5

                          Kobe: 38 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 turnovers, -6

                          Pau: 12 points, 12 rebounds, 0 assists, 1 turnover, -7

                          Artest: 7 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 turnover, 0

                          Bynum: 6 points, 1 rebound, 0 assists, 1 turnover, -12

                          So in addition to the myth that Bron got no help from his squad and won games by himself, we have the myth that Kobe can have off nights and win cause his team performs in the playoffs. Those seem like fairly comparable numbers to what the Cavs guys did against the C's in their loses.
                          If you want to compare Pau Gasol, Ron Artest, Lamar Odom and Andrew Bynum to the Cavs supporting cast, I think you've proven my point about the extremely high expectations people have had for LeBron that have never been had for another player. It's a sign of how good LeBron is.

                          Comment

                          • Brankles
                            Banned
                            • May 2003
                            • 5113

                            #6718
                            Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

                            Originally posted by Jasong7777
                            I guess my point is that we really don't know what that team could have accomplished. So saying that they would have never won is not true cause we don't know. And bringing other superstars into the convo is a waste of time, because we don't know if they could have won with the cavs or not.
                            Like EC said, it's important because it brings context. Name another player who was asked to win a title where his best player was of Mo Williams' caliber.

                            Comment

                            • jeebs9
                              Fear is the Unknown
                              • Oct 2008
                              • 47568

                              #6719
                              Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

                              Originally posted by King_B_Mack
                              Responsibility? They scored 100+ in both games. Didn't realize that 35 and 38 made up such a large part of 100 now.

                              Let's look at the Lakers' losses to the C's

                              Game 2

                              Kobe: 21 points, 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 5 turnovers, -9

                              Pau: 25 points, 8 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 turnover, -12

                              Artest: 6 points, 5 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 turnovers, 0

                              Bynum: 21 points, 6 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 turnovers, -1

                              Oh noz they suck, they need Kobe to score 30 or more just to win

                              Game 4

                              Kobe: 33 points, 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 7 turnovers, -8

                              Pau: 21 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 turnovers, -9

                              Artest: 9 points, 7 rebounds, 3 assists, 0 turnovers, +1

                              Bynum: 2 points, 3 rebounds, 0 assists, 1 turnovers, +1

                              Game 5

                              Kobe: 38 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 turnovers, -6

                              Pau: 12 points, 12 rebounds, 0 assists, 1 turnover, -7

                              Artest: 7 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 turnover, 0

                              Bynum: 6 points, 1 rebound, 0 assists, 1 turnover, -12

                              So in addition to the myth that Bron got no help from his squad and won games by himself, we have the myth that Kobe can have off nights and win cause his team performs in the playoffs. Those seem like fairly comparable numbers to what the Cavs guys did against the C's in their loses.



                              Durant? Probably not, too young and he's likely to put up the same numbers as Bron (minus the rebound totals)

                              Wade and Kobe? I'd say yes, with THIS team that Bron had they'd win a title or at least make it past Boston. It wasn't impossible, the Cavs just quit following they're "leader's" example.
                              Same numbers as LeBron.....wow....wow....KD is going to get assist?...

                              None of my business..
                              Hands Down....Man Down - 2k9 memories
                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IHP_5GUBQo

                              Comment

                              • jeebs9
                                Fear is the Unknown
                                • Oct 2008
                                • 47568

                                #6720
                                Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

                                I'm telling you...No matter what LeBron does....hate will come his way...Until he wins a championship. People are going call him a quitter...and anything else they can think of.
                                Hands Down....Man Down - 2k9 memories
                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IHP_5GUBQo

                                Comment

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