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Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat
It will be a straight to dvd release called "I Love You Man 2".Redskins, Lakers, Orioles, UNC Basketball , and ND Football
PSN: Jasong757
Xbox Live: Monado XComment
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Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat
I keep hearing about Antoine Walker going through similar stuff with his posse. I don't know the back story to that. Anyone willing to tell?Comment
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Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat
Lol, but if you want a summary: He was a bit too generous with his money, and supported his huge entourage and his family (about 70 people total). Now he's broke.
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Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat
I'm going to try not to write a book responding to everything so let me know if I leave something out.
I'm not really comparing an NBA team to a HS team, playing pick up ball or playing in college, bc you're right there are HUGE differences including the ones you mentioned. I'm talking more about my experience evaluating "that" player from different perspectives as a coach and a teammate. In short, I'm saying that after the fact you're looking at the entire team and saying "Lebron carried them, these other guys didn't do this or weren't consistent, etc." That type of evaluation only happens after the fact and the same group can be evaluated different based on the results (whether they won it all, how far they went, how bad they were beat, etc).
Instead, I would evaluate in a more predictive manner. In that sense you'd need to look at the potential of each person involved and the team as a whole (coach included). In that sense, coming into this past season we could predict that the Cavs would do very well... which they did. We could also predict that getting Jamison would give them a better chance in the playoffs. They didn't reach their potential.
Basically if we took your evaluation we'd say they DID reach their potential and just weren't very good besides Lebron and that's just not true. Brown was never considered a great coach but we'd expect him to put the pieces in the right places for success and he didn't. We'd expect Lebron to play consistently around his high level... especially in crunch time and he didn't. And we'd expect the other players to reach their potential and this is where it gets fuzzy. I'd say they DID but not consistently. And I'd also say what kept them from reaching it has a lot to do with Brown and James (as described in earlier posts).
Yes, it's still possible that everyone doing as expected wouldn't be enough to win it all... and it's possible that group just wasn't good enough. My point is we'll never know because it was very clear that James dialed it back for whatever reason, the entire team quit on the coach at some point, the coach had a horrible rotation and gameplan, etc. If Lebron had resigned with the Cavs, they got a new coach and went into next season, we would predict that they are again title contenders unless we just evaluate the upcoming season based on the last thing we saw from the previous season which is never a good way to look at things (ask sports betters).
Again, I think you're looking at it wrong. I can't just wait for the game to end, look at the score board and then evaluate the situation based on that. Did the D1 player work to make the other players better to give them a chance? Or did he loaf because he knew the odds were against him? Did he just try to do everything himself because he didn't let the coach do his job, just assuming the others weren't going to cut it?And I'm wondering from your personal point of view, when you coach and play, what do you think of a great player on an average team losing to a good player on a good team? Oftentimes I would see a D1 player on an average team that would get knocked out in the playoffs early to just better overall teams, however those teams that win might not get any guys into upper-level schools because they're not cut out for D1 ball.
Or if you were coaching, and playing a team that was better than you at every position except where your star player was at, would you be disappointed at your star player if your team lost? Would you think he was a loser or lacked leadership?
That's kind of how I view LeBron's situation and how he's the best player in the league and he's on an average team that becomes out manned at almost every position when they start getting deep into the playoffs. Where guys like Dwight and Paul Pierce continue to knock him out but most don't consider them better players, they're just on better teams.
If the superstar has great basketball sense and court vision then they should know they're drawing attention and know the best places to pass the other players on the floor the ball. They may have a teammate that's worthless besides shooting 3's so they drive toward his defender and kick it to him for wide open shots. They may drive to dish to the center when his guy is forced to help. Good leadership means they know when and how to get other players involved and will help make sure they know where they should be to help him out. Lebron does all of this, but when he stops, as the engine, the entire car stops running. That's why it's not about him having a bad game or two, it's about quitting... and in terms of our discussion, not knowing what the end result would be if he didn't.
Here's a scenario for you... a boy and girl bring their report cards home. The boy gets all C's and his parents praise him for passing all of his classes. The girl has a few A's but mostly B's and their parents are disappointed. Is this fair? On the surface it doesn't appear so. But if the boy has struggled to pass and finally got over the hump, and the girl is a straight A student who inexplicably took a step back, this would be the normal reaction. That's how I look at the situation. I expect James to play like one of the best players in the NBA. When it's clear that he's not, and it's not bc the D was tougher or he's hurt but something else, then I'm disappointed. Even if they win the game, I'm disappointed. If he gives his all throughout, they're actually running an offense that's getting the other players good looks and they're just blowing it, then I'll put all the weight on the supporting cast.Comment
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Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat
I think you're asking a mighty lot out of what the Cavs had, which is great if you're the Cavs coach, but bad if you're comparing it to the potential of other teams.
The Celtics, Magic and Lakers all had better coaching and better players. These teams peaked in the playoffs (except maybe Orlando). You had Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG, Perkins and Big Baby playing at an extremely high level and fairly consistently. Then you had a defensive mastermind of Tom Thibodeau scheming LeBron and outthinking Brown. There were the Jordan Rules and last playoffs there were the James Rules.
If you're expecting the best out of the Cavs you also have to expect the best out of the other teams. You have to respect your opponents, and the Celtics were worthy of that respect. Man for man, minus LeBron, they were better than the Cavs.
The Cavs needed to play at their peak to get deep into the playoffs. They needed to be maxed out in their potential. Those other teams had the luxury of playing their B or C game and still winning, the Cavs did not.Yes, it's still possible that everyone doing as expected wouldn't be enough to win it all... and it's possible that group just wasn't good enough. My point is we'll never know because it was very clear that James dialed it back for whatever reason, the entire team quit on the coach at some point, the coach had a horrible rotation and gameplan, etc. If Lebron had resigned with the Cavs, they got a new coach and went into next season, we would predict that they are again title contenders unless we just evaluate the upcoming season based on the last thing we saw from the previous season which is never a good way to look at things (ask sports betters).
I'll concede that LeBron did not show up for at least one of the games against the Celtics, but does that completely remove what he did the rest of the season?Again, I think you're looking at it wrong. I can't just wait for the game to end, look at the score board and then evaluate the situation based on that. Did the D1 player work to make the other players better to give them a chance? Or did he loaf because he knew the odds were against him? Did he just try to do everything himself because he didn't let the coach do his job, just assuming the others weren't going to cut it?
If the superstar has great basketball sense and court vision then they should know they're drawing attention and know the best places to pass the other players on the floor the ball. They may have a teammate that's worthless besides shooting 3's so they drive toward his defender and kick it to him for wide open shots. They may drive to dish to the center when his guy is forced to help. Good leadership means they know when and how to get other players involved and will help make sure they know where they should be to help him out. Lebron does all of this, but when he stops, as the engine, the entire car stops running. That's why it's not about him having a bad game or two, it's about quitting... and in terms of our discussion, not knowing what the end result would be if he didn't.
And what the rest of the NBA legends and Hall of Famers have never accomplished before?
Does that make everyone before him who couldn't win with an All-Star reserve PG, a 33 year old undersized jump shooting PF and a 37 year old, overweight center, as players who lack heart and leadership?
Yes, I understand that LeBron did not give his full effort in the playoffs last year. Kobe's done the exact same thing multiple times... but for some reason he has the reputation of being the Black Mamba, a relentless competitor and a great leader and teacher to his teammates. Yet LeBron takes this team further than anyone else playing today could, and he fails to show up in a playoff series and he's now written off as a sidekick by so many.
You're asking LeBron to deliver a 4.0 in courses no one else has ever delivered all A's in. Jordan took the same courses and got a 3.5, and he's the greatest of all time. Kobe got a 2.7 in those classes when his tutor Shaq left. Magic and Bird took easier courses and got 4.0s. They never had to take those hard courses. Jordan eventually got a 4.0 after his course load lightened up. Kobe and Pierce have been taking gym class and wood shop for the last three seasons and you're praising them for getting their A's.Here's a scenario for you... a boy and girl bring their report cards home. The boy gets all C's and his parents praise him for passing all of his classes. The girl has a few A's but mostly B's and their parents are disappointed. Is this fair? On the surface it doesn't appear so. But if the boy has struggled to pass and finally got over the hump, and the girl is a straight A student who inexplicably took a step back, this would be the normal reaction. That's how I look at the situation. I expect James to play like one of the best players in the NBA. When it's clear that he's not, and it's not bc the D was tougher or he's hurt but something else, then I'm disappointed. Even if they win the game, I'm disappointed. If he gives his all throughout, they're actually running an offense that's getting the other players good looks and they're just blowing it, then I'll put all the weight on the supporting cast.
Sometimes studying for those courses that no one else can get A's in wears you down and you let up. And then sometimes while you're studying, your teammate is sleeping with your mom and you can't think about studying.Comment
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Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat
This part of the convo is just going in circles. You're evaluating after the fact (back to the "hindsight is 20/20"). Rondo's name wasn't even mentioned with the others going in, and I still maintain that Rondo has been allowed to shine bc of the attention the others get AND their ability to recognize that and put him in the right position. No matter how you feel about Rondo going forward, I doubt there were more than a couple of Wildcat fans that predicted his play going in. That would mean that he overachieved. There also weren't an "James Rules" unless they were made by Mike Brown. The Celtics are a great defensive team, but as has been laid out in this thread, Lebron did his thing. When he didn't, it wasn't because of the defense. He took himself out of the game. This isn't like trading cards or grading every position to determine a winner. The Cavs as a team was every bit as good as the other top teams, which is why they had the number one seed. They underachieved, and that includes Lebron.
Could've grouped this with the earlier one. They didn't seem to be working so hard on their way to 66 wins. It's easy to say "the other teams were saving it for the playoffs" or "the other teams peaked in the playoffs" or "the playoffs are a different animal" but that doesn't mean you totally ignore the best record over an 82 game period. You also can't ignore something we agree on... Lebron and the team quit at some point in the Boston series. That, along with the fact that they not only were NOT swept but did some damage in their wins, says that winning that series was not out of the question... and not only by maxing out potential. Playing what we can call their "A" game, they destroyed the Celtics.The Cavs needed to play at their peak to get deep into the playoffs. They needed to be maxed out in their potential. Those other teams had the luxury of playing their B or C game and still winning, the Cavs did not.
I'm talking about the value of the rest of the team and the possibility that with only minor changes, the Cavs could've won a title. I don't know what you're asking in terms of James based on that. I said he quit because I believe he did. I don't believe he's much of a leader because of many things he's done during his career, including the Decision (he shows a lot of immaturity and the traits of a follower). I think there's a misconception that I hate him or don't think he's insanely talented.I'll concede that LeBron did not show up for at least one of the games against the Celtics, but does that completely remove what he did the rest of the season?
And what the rest of the NBA legends and Hall of Famers have never accomplished before?
Does that make everyone before him who couldn't win with an All-Star reserve PG, a 33 year old undersized jump shooting PF and a 37 year old, overweight center, as players who lack heart and leadership?
Yes, I understand that LeBron did not give his full effort in the playoffs last year. Kobe's done the exact same thing multiple times... but for some reason he has the reputation of being the Black Mamba, a relentless competitor and a great leader and teacher to his teammates. Yet LeBron takes this team further than anyone else playing today could, and he fails to show up in a playoff series and he's now written off as a sidekick by so many.
I don't think what anybody has or hasn't accomplished before matters though. As they say, records are made to be broken. Players do what no one has done before all the time. But I'll also repeat, there have been many players with resumes similar to Mo, Jamison, Shaq, etc. that were elevated to quality championship pieces AFTER winning the championship. Just like before the season, the view of these players after a season would be different if they won it all.
Not at all. I'm asking Lebron to explain how a straight A student comes home with a report card full of B's. I sat in on some of his classes and they didn't appear any harder than the ones he had before, but he seemed to check out in the middle of the final and I want to know why. Maybe it's because his teammate slept with his mom, and of course (if true) he's not going to say that, but what I don't like is him saying "I just spoiled you with all those good grades. That's why you can't handle this B I got." I also don't want to hear that he wants to transfer to an easier school so he doesn't have to work as hard to get A's.You're asking LeBron to deliver a 4.0 in courses no one else has ever delivered all A's in. Jordan took the same courses and got a 3.5, and he's the greatest of all time. Kobe got a 2.7 in those classes when his tutor Shaq left. Magic and Bird took easier courses and got 4.0s. They never had to take those hard courses. Jordan eventually got a 4.0 after his course load lightened up. Kobe and Pierce have been taking gym class and wood shop for the last three seasons and you're praising them for getting their A's.
Sometimes studying for those courses that no one else can get A's in wears you down and you let up. And then sometimes while you're studying, your teammate is sleeping with your mom and you can't think about studying.Comment
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Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat
I'll just address this because the rest of our argument is getting really repetitive, but I think it explains it in a nutshell. Your standard of success is a 4.0. Whether it's a gym class or Physics 12, a player needs to get a 4.0.
No player has ever gotten a 4.0 in Physics 12, even if they tried their hardest. Einstein (Jordan) tried and got a B+. He gave it his all and came up short. Then he started taking easier classes, that's when he started getting his 4.0.
Kobe tried Physics 12. He actually cried and pouted his way into Physics 12 because he thought he could handle it. He was tired of getting 4.0s in gym class and wanted more of a challenge. When he got to Physics 12, he got a D. Then he retook the class, and got a B- for two semesters in a row. Knowing he could never possibly do it (because no one before him has), he pouted again until his guidance counselor moved him back to gym class, where he continues getting As.
LeBron was placed in Physics 12. He had no choice. He stayed in Physics 12 and got better each semester. He even got an A- one semester but fell short in a really hard Finals. He continued doing well but still kind of fell short of that A each year. After studying so much every semester for the entire semester long, he got tired at the end. This showed mentally and physically. Like the greats before him, he never truly failed, but he never truly succeeded. Now he's taking finger painting.
My whole point is that your standard for LeBron is extremely harsh. Yes, had the Cavs been completely clicking each night, they could have won a championship. You could say that about 5 or 6 other teams, too. Yes, LeBron is immature and yes, he has questionable moments with lack of judgment or heart... but as a whole, he's not much different than any other legend who has come up short playing on a bad team. To say he's a sidekick or a follower is also saying that there may only be 3 other players in NBA history that are NOT those things. He led his team to 66 wins, to the Finals, the ECF, to division titles and conference titles and regular-season best records. Nothing about that says to me that he's a loser, a follower or heartless to me. And in the context of other NBA greats, he doesn't stand out as the loser and the least determined of the bunch.Comment
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Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat
This is pretty much a different way of saying the same thing we're talking in circles about (which is understandable as I'm doing the same thing). So predictably, I'm going to say no, that's not a good example of what I'm saying... for a couple of reasons.
First, I don't care if Lebron never wins a title. I personally don't use rings to evaluate a player. In many cases they are icing on the cake. In Lebron's case, rings in Cleveland could've vaulted him to an unthinkable level but that's hardly my standard. That was just a possibility that he gave up on. But the Cavs did not need to be clicking on all cylinders every night. A team that wins 66 regular season games has proven they find ways to win when everything isn't clicking. And also like I just said in the last post, they may have won this year if Lebron (and others) didn't quit at important times in a game or two... we'll never know. You're assuming that winning this year was out of the question and I just don't understand that when you know he quit in those games. Take that out of it and I'd probably be on your side, but it happened and can't be ignored.
Your other examples don't fly because my analogy with grades is all about expectations. When I expected Jordan to get straight A's he got straight A's. If you want to give Kobe a B+, A- or whatever, the grades that he got have been what I've expected him to get or very close. I'm not sure why you want to compare anyway because I'm only talking about Lebron but if you want to put them in the analogy the way I intended, so be it. Both Kobe and Jordan worked their way through adversity and ended up on top. Lebron transferred to an easier school.
You want to talk about drafting Pippen and trading for Gasol, but neither player were established enough to assure anything (and we can include Phil in the Jordan years) at that time. Again, hindsight is 20/20. You want to talk about Kobe crying for help but that wasn't a Lakers team that won 60+ games two years in a row and then Gasol was brought in and Kobe stuck around to see if it would work. Jordan and Pippen didn't win right away but they stuck around as the team continued to be built into a powerhouse. And both cases are ignoring what I've repeated over and over... players with the same resume look different AFTER winning a championship. Throwing out names like Lamar Odom, an old Ron Artest and Derek Fisher is a joke if we're not talking about a championship team. We can even include the oft-injured Bynum in that mix.
To quote you, "he's not much different than any other legend who has come up short playing on a bad team." That's you calling it a "bad" team (that's for ex), and the difference here is that the two examples you presented wanted their team to be better one way or another and the standings and playoff results show that Lebron's team was better than those teams you're comparing them to. And yes, I say playoff results because this year they ran through the first round and the 2nd is a what if because the superstar quit.
Loser and heartless are your words. Being a follower is in someone's personality. He's shown frontrunner tendencies which is consistent with followers. He's made horrible decisions that seem to be tied directly to the advice of his friends. He specifically said he's happy about not having to be as dominant in games. He seems like a follower.
Now I will say that if he's a follower, with the amount of talent he has he makes a perfect side kick. Garnett is a perfect side kick too. So was Pippen. I don't know why you're insulted by these thoughts (or think they're insults to him). It's almost like Barkley saying "I'm not a role model." Just because the guy has all the talent in the world doesn't mean he's got the personality, killer instinct and maturity to be a leader of a championship team. Sometimes you have to put the things that make you go Ooooo and Aaaaaah aside and just look at them as people.Comment
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Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat
No..No.....don't answer the question with a question...lol Just answer the question.Hands Down....Man Down - 2k9 memories
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IHP_5GUBQoComment
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Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat
lebron james has the most natural gifts to play basketball.
kobe bryant has the most skills of any basketball player i can recall.
as for which one of these distinctions equates to "talent" is up to you.xbox gt - bmorerep87
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That's a damn fine post man. Sums up the way a lot of us feel about the team in a very easy to understand manner. I especially like the analogy with the kid's report cards.
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