The LeBron James Thread

[jeebs9]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

^^I agree with statement^^

I was just watching this play from 2009 playoffs vs Pistons. There is this play where LeBron is around the dotted line charge area. And there is a turnover on the other side of the court (above the free throw line). And LeBron James has either a rocket pack attached to his back or something. He beats everyone down the court for a fastbreak dunk. Stuckley looks like he has a chance to foul him. But he is just too fast. Stuckley was at the top of the key. Thats Karl Malones body, with Iverson type speed...and a finish like Kobe. I mean its scary....

[hawaikui]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

That's a little shortsighted isn't it? Kobe was one of the most athletic players ever in his younger days. I will say LeBron is more athletic than Kobe ever was, but it's alot closer than comparing LeBrons basketball skill with Kobes, which isn't close at all.

I would say the gap between their athletic abilities is as huge as that between their skill levels. Kobe maybe the most skilled offensive weapon the NBA has ever seen(yes, more so than MJ even I do think MJ is the better player, but let's not get into this), but I don't know if I have ever seen a basketball player as gifted as James is with that combination of power, speed and leaping ability.

[The15thunter]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

^^I agree with statement^^

I was just watching this play from 2009 playoffs vs Pistons. There is this play where LeBron is around the dotted line charge area. And there is a turnover on the other side of the court (above the free throw line). And LeBron James has either a rocket pack attached to his back or something. He beats everyone down the court for a fastbreak dunk. Stuckley looks like he has a chance to foul him. But he is just too fast. Stuckley was at the top of the key. Thats Karl Malones body, with Iverson type speed...and a finish like Kobe. I mean its scary....

exactly. usually with players of elite physical prowess in sports history, they're ahead of their time. jim brown, wilt chamberlain, oscar robertson, magic johnson, these guys are prototypes that have proven to be decades ahead of their time. with lebron, i don't think time will show that he is a prototype that will be followed, he seems to just be a standalone anomaly.

[wwharton]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

exactly. usually with players of elite physical prowess in sports history, they're ahead of their time. jim brown, wilt chamberlain, oscar robertson, magic johnson, these guys are prototypes that have proven to be decades ahead of their time. with lebron, i don't think time will show that he is a prototype that will be followed, he seems to just be a standalone anomaly.

Yeah, the only comparable example (imo) is Shaq and considering the position Lebron is able to play he dwarfs Shaq too.

[The15thunter]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Yeah, the only comparable example (imo) is Shaq and considering the position Lebron is able to play he dwarfs Shaq too.

yeah, shaq plays a position where size, physical strength and footwork are paramount. so for him to be that tall, that big, that strong and that coordinated was certainly unfair.

however, lebron has more size, strength, speed and footwork advantages to his positional counterparts when compared to shaq, as well as being an overall better basketball player.

[jeebs9]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

I would say the gap between their athletic abilities is as huge as that between their skill levels. Kobe maybe the most skilled offensive weapon the NBA has ever seen(yes, more so than MJ even I do think MJ is the better player, but let's not get into this), but I don't know if I have ever seen a basketball player as gifted as James is with that combination of power, speed and leaping ability.

exactly. usually with players of elite physical prowess in sports history, they're ahead of their time. jim brown, wilt chamberlain, oscar robertson, magic johnson, these guys are prototypes that have proven to be decades ahead of their time. with lebron, i don't think time will show that he is a prototype that will be followed, he seems to just be a standalone anomaly.

Yeah, the only comparable example (imo) is Shaq and considering the position Lebron is able to play he dwarfs Shaq too.

I some might not feel the same way. But I think LeBron's passing is a major skill. I'm not saying Kobe (or Jordan for that matter) are not good passers. But his court vision is pretty damn good. Watching him weave this tight bounce pass between 3 Bulls defenders had that Nash/CP3/DWill feeling to it. It's not as great as Magic's/Kidd's passing. But its up there.

[The15thunter]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

I some might not feel the same way. But I think LeBron's passing is a major skill. I'm not saying Kobe (or Jordan for that matter). But his court vision is pretty damn good. Watching him weave this tight bounce pass between 3 Bulls defenders had that Nash/CP3/DWill feeling to it. It's not as great as Magic's/Kidd's passing.

no question, his passing and vision are tremendous, especially for someone who scores so much. anyone who says he isn't a great passer is wrong.

[wwharton]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

I some might not feel the same way. But I think LeBron's passing is a major skill. I'm not saying Kobe (or Jordan for that matter) are not good passers. But his court vision is pretty damn good. Watching him weave this tight bounce pass between 3 Bulls defenders had that Nash/CP3/DWill feeling to it. It's not as great as Magic's/Kidd's passing. But its up there.

I don't know if you're disagreeing or just adding to (probably the latter) but yeah, the man's built like a PF but has all the skills of a PG. I know I've argued in other discussions that LBJ's not as great of a passer as many think. I stand by that bc, as you said, he's not Magic in that regard. But with that said, he's still a pretty good passer and a great passer for his size. BTW, Shaq is also a great passer for his size and position. Gotta give the Big Ring chaser some credit there.

[jeebs9]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

I don't know if you're disagreeing or just adding to (probably the latter) but yeah, the man's built like a PF but has all the skills of a PG. I know I've argued in other discussions that LBJ's not as great of a passer as many think. I stand by that bc, as you said, he's not Magic in that regard. But with that said, he's still a pretty good passer and a great passer for his size. BTW, Shaq is also a great passer for his size and position. Gotta give the Big Ring chaser some credit there.

I actually would love to hear this...Why isn't LeBron a great passer?


Because to me Kidd and Magic are in a class of their own. They don't do those "look away" passes. They actually aren't looking....Its almost like they "feel" the open guy.

But I don't understand how you think LeBron is a good passer....

[wwharton]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

I actually would love to hear this...Why isn't LeBron a great passer?


Because to me Kidd and Magic are in a class of their own. They don't do those "look away" passes. They actually aren't looking....Its almost like they "feel" the open guy.

But I don't understand how you think LeBron is a good passer....

Lebron is a very good passer but he's not Magic, Nash, Stockton, etc. Do I really need to explain that?

Some people overrate him bc of how many assists he gets. The problem with that is A) he dominates the ball which means most points by other players will come off of passes from him or offensive rebounds and B) entire defenses are geared to stopping him from scoring which makes it easier for him to find open teammates in position to hit shots.

The earlier discussion was about him and MJ in terms of passing. Lebron is a better passer than Jordan but it's not as big of a gap as some may think. The difference is Jordan didn't trust anybody so he never wanted to pass the ball.

But again, even though Lebron could average 5 assists in his sleep (Iverson isn't a great passer) no matter his passing skills, he's still a very good passer and a great passer for his size.

[The15thunter]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Lebron is a very good passer but he's not Magic, Nash, Stockton, etc. Do I really need to explain that?

Some people overrate him bc of how many assists he gets. The problem with that is A) he dominates the ball which means most points by other players will come off of passes from him or offensive rebounds and B) entire defenses are geared to stopping him from scoring which makes it easier for him to find open teammates in position to hit shots.

The earlier discussion was about him and MJ in terms of passing. Lebron is a better passer than Jordan but it's not as big of a gap as some may think. The difference is Jordan didn't trust anybody so he never wanted to pass the ball.

But again, even though Lebron could average 5 assists in his sleep (Iverson isn't a great passer) no matter his passing skills, he's still a very good passer and a great passer for his size.

amongst the elite scorers in nba history, leborn is probably the most willing passer, with second place coming to bird.

[wwharton]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

amongst the elite scorers in nba history, leborn is probably the most willing passer, with second place coming to bird.

Exactly... he WANTS to pass which is very rare for a player with the ability to score the way he can. Wanting to pass doesn't make him a better passer, it just highlights his ability to pass more than some other great scorers.

[jeebs9]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Lebron is a very good passer but he's not Magic, Nash, Stockton, etc. Do I really need to explain that?

Some people overrate him bc of how many assists he gets. The problem with that is A) he dominates the ball which means most points by other players will come off of passes from him or offensive rebounds and B) entire defenses are geared to stopping him from scoring which makes it easier for him to find open teammates in position to hit shots.

The earlier discussion was about him and MJ in terms of passing. Lebron is a better passer than Jordan but it's not as big of a gap as some may think. The difference is Jordan didn't trust anybody so he never wanted to pass the ball.

But again, even though Lebron could average 5 assists in his sleep (Iverson isn't a great passer) no matter his passing skills, he's still a very good passer and a great passer for his size.

I mean I totally understand your 2 points. But they are a little flawed. Someone could easily say..."Don't you need the ball in your hands to get assist." lol I mean PG's dominate the ball don't they. Magic, Kidd, and Stockon dominate the ball. They have to they're point guards lol. Your second point actually fights with your next paragraph. Weren't defenses geared up to stop MJ and Kobe. Why don't they average more assist?

Basically....Some guys are comfortable making that beauitful pass and other are more comfortable shooting over 2-3 guys face. Its just different philosophy. Or different comfortable situations for each player.

And again..I just wanted to hear your point of view.

edit: Because at the end of the day. "2 points is 2 points"

[wwharton]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

I mean I totally understand your 2 points. But they are a little flawed. Someone could easily say..."Don't you need the ball in your hands to get assist." lol I mean PG's dominate the ball don't they. Magic, Kidd, and Stockon dominate the ball. They have to they're point guards lol. Your second point actually fights with your next paragraph. Weren't defenses geared up to stop MJ and Kobe. Why don't they average more assist?

Basically....Some guys are comfortable making that beauitful pass and other are more comfortable shooting over 2-3 guys face. Its just different philosophy. Or different comfortable situations for each player.

And again..I just wanted to hear your point of view.

edit: Because at the end of the day. "2 points is 2 points"

1) There's a difference between "run the offense" and "dominate the ball". I want to say that because not all pgs dominate the ball. Now that I've said that, yes, the guys you mentioned dominate the ball but that's not really the point. I don't think Nash is a great passer because he gets a lot of assists. I think he's a great passer because I've watched him and he's a great passer. Brent Barry was a great passer even though his numbers didn't show it. My point about dominating the ball is just a reason why some that just look at stats when determining things like this may be fooled into thinking Lebron is a better passer than he is.

2) I'm pretty sure I mentioned MJ specifically. There were times when missing a shot meant Jordan wouldn't even consider passing to you for the rest of the game (and would threaten to freeze out anyone else that passed it to you). The dude just didn't trust his teammates enough to rack up assists. I'm not even saying he's as good of a passer as James but I think it's closer than many believe. As for Kobe... what about him? He averaged 5 assists per game as a shooting guard and no one calls him a great passer. That's a perfect example of how a great player can get assists just because the defense is focused on him as I wouldn't consider Kobe a great passer.

The biggest difference though is that Lebron WANTS to pass. That doesn't make him great. Let me see if I can think of some examples to break it down more...

Nash makes amazing passes and racks up assists even though most defenders know he's going to pass.

Iverson racked up assists mostly because he dominated the ball and the entire defense expected him to shoot.

Lebron's in the middle. Both in terms of being a dominant scorer that gets the focus of the defense and being a good passer (better than Iverson, not as good as Nash).

[jeebs9]

Re: LeBron James Signs With Miami Heat

Here is a good question...WW....Who is a better passer LeBron or Rondo?

Also WW....I understood your point of view in the very first post.