The LeBron James Thread

[wwharton]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Regarding the top half, I don't think James is on his A game right now at all. He isn't shooting the ball very well (since game 1) and he isn't getting into the paint.

Regarding the bottom half, Kobe was the sidekick in the Finals runs with Shaq (or at least the first two, I honestly don't recall them all that well, but I know he wasn't the star of the series the first two times). He was a great complement to Shaq and had a huge role in the Lakers winning the title, and a ring is a ring, but Kobe winning 3 rings with Shaq =/= Michael winning 3 rings with Scottie. Michael was the alpha male and it was unquestioned for all 6 of his championships, and if LeBron wins a bunch of rings in the manner that he is winning this one, where it's been more of Dwyane Wade being a great leader, setting the tone for his team with his high energy and intensity, and James doing things here or there, Heat fans/LeBron fans will use those rings as part of what puts LeBron up near Michael Jordan's level in the same way that some people have done that with Kobe's rings. Kobe was the man in the last two championships, but the first 3 he was more of just a sidekick. But nonetheless, he has 5 rings so a lot of Kobe fans say he's as close to MJ as anybody else because of the way he played and the # of rings he has to show for it. If LeBron gets and 3 of them he plays the way he is right now, and then the last 2 he's the unquestioned leader (as Wade's body starts to fail him a little), people will say the same about LeBron and I just don't think that's right at all.

Sorry if that bottom half is written really poorly or unclear. I don't know why but I'm having a really hard time typing out my thoughts right now lol.

First part, he's not on his "A" game but that doesn't mean he's not playing well. It's similar to the talk of Gasol being the best player in the finals last year. Gasol did his thing, but Kobe's presence gave him the opportunity shine as well. Lebron is contributing on offense and is being a leader on defense, and is still the most dangerous player on the court in a fast break.

Second part, I think I understand what you're saying but I don't really agree with the line of thought. Basically, Kobe's 5 rings does put him close to Jordan... relatively speaking. By that I mean, who out there is closer? That doesn't mean that he's close enough to ever be considered better, just that he still has a nice comfortable place in history. The same is true with Lebron. I'm personally disappointed that he left bc a string of rings as the man in Cleveland would've given him the chance to be considered the best ever. Now it's going to take a lot more and I don't think it's possible personally, but the book hasn't been completed.

I will say it's not fair to assume what Heat or Lebron fans will do if/when he wins. That's just as bad as them saying "You know when he wins all the haters will find some reason to discredit it." Lets let it happen, see how they react and then respond accordingly. Just like the Kobe fans, any claims that he's on Jordan's heels fall on deaf ears. Doesn't stop me from appreciating him for what he actually is.

---------------------------

For the people still going back and forth about this, I don't get what's so hard to understand about the venom coming at James having MUCH more to do with how he went about things and even his attitude now than the fact that he went to Miami at all. I mentioned before that we don't hear ANYTHING about Amare and the talk about Melo going to NY completely stopped when he actually went there. There is no anger building up for when Dwight leaves Orlando.

Every one of those situations fall in the same category of all the arguments about "So a player in his prime can't do this" or "So it'd be ok if he went to Chicago" etc. There is a very clear reason why these other situations don't bother people like Lebron's. Hell, even Bosh gets a pass. I can only think people continue to ignore this because they just want to keep arguing.

[Drewski]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

For the people still going back and forth about this, I don't get what's so hard to understand about the venom coming at James having MUCH more to do with how he went about things and even his attitude now than the fact that he went to Miami at all. I mentioned before that we don't hear ANYTHING about Amare and the talk about Melo going to NY completely stopped when he actually went there. There is no anger building up for when Dwight leaves Orlando.

Every one of those situations fall in the same category of all the arguments about "So a player in his prime can't do this" or "So it'd be ok if he went to Chicago" etc. There is a very clear reason why these other situations don't bother people like Lebron's. Hell, even Bosh gets a pass. I can only think people continue to ignore this because they just want to keep arguing.

Great point. As a Laker fan, I'm obviously PULLING for Dwight to tell em he wants some LA exposure, but even as an NBA fan... I'm PULLING for him to leave and get somewhere he can have some help and have a successful career on more than an individual level. And I know multiple people who share the same feelings about D12. Funny how the complete opposite has happened with Lebron, and it goes back to your point... its all about how Lebron handled the situation. Which was poor, which is an understatement. I think Lebron is a HELL of a talent (SEE: my top five inclusion of him over Bird until I flipped the switch the other way), but I think his PR people and him personally have made him a very polarizing figure in the hoops world.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

First part, he's not on his "A" game but that doesn't mean he's not playing well. It's similar to the talk of Gasol being the best player in the finals last year. Gasol did his thing, but Kobe's presence gave him the opportunity shine as well. Lebron is contributing on offense and is being a leader on defense, and is still the most dangerous player on the court in a fast break.

Second part, I think I understand what you're saying but I don't really agree with the line of thought. Basically, Kobe's 5 rings does put him close to Jordan... relatively speaking. By that I mean, who out there is closer? That doesn't mean that he's close enough to ever be considered better, just that he still has a nice comfortable place in history. The same is true with Lebron. I'm personally disappointed that he left bc a string of rings as the man in Cleveland would've given him the chance to be considered the best ever. Now it's going to take a lot more and I don't think it's possible personally, but the book hasn't been completed.

I will say it's not fair to assume what Heat or Lebron fans will do if/when he wins. That's just as bad as them saying "You know when he wins all the haters will find some reason to discredit it." Lets let it happen, see how they react and then respond accordingly. Just like the Kobe fans, any claims that he's on Jordan's heels fall on deaf ears. Doesn't stop me from appreciating him for what he actually is.

You make good points man; I like this.

[WTF]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

With LeBron it's never just about the what, it's been about how. It all goes back to The Decision, a topic that even seemed relevant at Shaquille O'Neal's retirement party last week, when I wondered why O'Neal's departure from Orlando, bitter though it may have been, didn't create the same lasting animosity as LeBron's leaving Cleveland.

"On a business level, if he would have been straight up with the guy [Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert] and let the guy make moves to try to build his team, everything would have been all right," O'Neal said. "But you can't keep messing around with people [saying], 'I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.'

"Then this guy [says], 'All right, Mike [Brown], you're gone. [Danny Ferry], you're gone. You're gone, we're going to do this.' The guy was trying to make it better for LeBron, but LeBron and his group of guys didn't tell him what was going on. And then at the last minute it was too late. The guy couldn't go out and get no free agents, you know what I'm saying?

"I just think if LeBron would have did it better, different tactically, things would have been all right. Because guys have left, guys have left franchises for the past 40, 60 years. The way he did it just kind of caught people off guard."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...=LeBron-110606

From Shaq. That's what everyone is upset about. Shaq saw it first hand. This is what people are STILL upset at. Understandable.

LBJ is a great talent... it's how things went down that left a raw taste to people.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Whatever. Shaq don't know wtf he's talking about, he wasn't there the first 6 years when LeBron didn't have anywhere near Shaq's level support. These guys who talk like this, I would have loved to see how they would have handled the entire situation [not The Decision, the years leading up to The Decision]. Shaq has always had HOF talent around him, it's easy for him to say this.

I don't put stock into what players say sometimes when it comes to business.

[mKoz26]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Whatever. Shaq don't know wtf he's talking about, he wasn't there the first 6 years when LeBron didn't have anywhere near Shaq's level support. These guys who talk like this, I would have loved to see how they would have handled the entire situation [not The Decision, the years leading up to The Decision]. Shaq has always had HOF talent around him, it's easy for him to say this.

I don't put stock into what players say sometimes when it comes to business.

I thought Shaq was spot on. It wasn't about what he did. It's about how he did it. Everybody's been saying that since The Decision.

I don't know how your thought about Shaq's talented teammates is at all relevant to his point. He didn't say LeBron shouldn't have left. He said LeBron went about it the wrong way.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I thought Shaq was spot on. It wasn't about what he did. It's about how he did it. Everybody's been saying that since The Decision.

I don't know how your thought about Shaq's talented teammates is at all relevant to his point. He didn't say LeBron shouldn't have left. He said LeBron went about it the wrong way.

I wasn't referring to the decision.

I'm talking about the years leading up to the decision, where LeBron didn't get much help from the front office.

The result was what Shaq was referring to, LeBron saying "I don't know I don't know I don't know". Shaq seemed to imply that LeBron was handicapping their ability to get free agents. Psssshhhhhhhhhhhh

The Decision has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

Shaq has always had HOF support, so he has never ever dealt with what LeBron has throughout LeBron's career. So basically I'm saying it's easy for Shaq to say this BS

[The 24th Letter]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I know im personally not interested in how Shaq of all people feels about HOW you should leave a franchise...

hes pretty much the last guy im going to "amen" on this subject

[mKoz26]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I wasn't referring to the decision.

I'm talking about the years leading up to the decision, where LeBron didn't get much help from the front office.

The result was what Shaq was referring to, LeBron saying "I don't know I don't know I don't know". Shaq seemed to imply that LeBron was handicapping their ability to get free agents. Psssshhhhhhhhhhhh

The Decision has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

Shaq has always had HOF support, so he has never ever dealt with what LeBron has throughout LeBron's career. So basically I'm saying it's easy for Shaq to say this BS

The "I don't know I don't know I don't know" was obviously referring to LeBron's indecision during last offseason. He kept saying he was unsure of where he was going and because of this the Cavs had to just wait it out and hope he decided to return. Shaq was talking right before that about how Gilbert couldn't rebuild his team because LeBron was essentially holding them hostage. He's exactly right.

Shaq was only criticizing the exact process of LeBron's free agency summer. I thought that was pretty clear.

If LeBron told the Cavs up front that he was leaving instead of drawing it out for his ego show, the Cavs would have had a chance to build the team slightly. That's what Shaq's saying.

[WTF]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

The "I don't know I don't know I don't know" was obviously referring to LeBron's indecision during last offseason. He kept saying he was unsure of where he was going and because of this the Cavs had to just wait it out and hope he decided to return. Shaq was talking right before that about how Gilbert couldn't rebuild his team because LeBron was essentially holding them hostage. He's exactly right.

Shaq was only criticizing the exact process of LeBron's free agency summer. I thought that was pretty clear.

If LeBron told the Cavs up front that he was leaving instead of drawing it out for his ego show, the Cavs would have had a chance to build the team slightly. That's what Shaq's saying.

This. When Bosh & the likes stated that they'd been basically planning it for 2-3 years. Sorry, the charade didn't need to happen.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

The "I don't know I don't know I don't know" was obviously referring to LeBron's indecision during last offseason. He kept saying he was unsure of where he was going and because of this the Cavs had to just wait it out and hope he decided to return. Shaq was talking right before that about how Gilbert couldn't rebuild his team because LeBron was essentially holding them hostage. He's exactly right.

Shaq was only criticizing the exact process of LeBron's free agency summer. I thought that was pretty clear.

If LeBron told the Cavs up front that he was leaving instead of drawing it out for his ego show, the Cavs would have had a chance to build the team slightly. That's what Shaq's saying.

Right, and like I said maybe if the front office would have done a bit more in LeBron's first 6 or 7 years, the "I don't know I don't know I don't know" wouldn't have happened.

Shaq can open his fat mouth but he aint experience what LeBron did. So I don't buy what he's selling.

[mKoz26]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Right, and like I said maybe if the front office would have done a bit more in LeBron's first 6 or 7 years, the "I don't know I don't know I don't know" wouldn't have happened.

Shaq can open his fat mouth but he aint experience what LeBron did. So I don't buy what he's selling.

That makes no sense, to be honest.

It's okay to handicap your organization because they didn't support you with enough talent? And that's ignoring the fact that the organization did everything LeBron wanted to try and make the team better.

I don't see how one justifies the other. Maybe if the team purposely tried to limit the talent around LeBron (to save money or whatever a rational reason would be), the charade would be a bit more justified. But the Cavs did what they could to help LeBron win. They just didn't get the job done, and some of that blame is on LeBron himself for how he tried to control the roster and how he played.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

That makes no sense, to be honest.

It's okay to handicap your organization because they didn't support you with enough talent? And that's ignoring the fact that the organization did everything LeBron wanted to try and make the team better.

I don't see how one justifies the other. Maybe if the team purposely tried to limit the talent around LeBron (to save money or whatever a rational reason would be), the charade would be a bit more justified. But the Cavs did what they could to help LeBron win. They just didn't get the job done, and some of that blame is on LeBron himself for how he tried to control the roster and how he played.

I never said anything was "OK", especially "OK to handicap an organization".

Everything that happened last summer was the culmination of Gilbert not being able to put the right pieces in place. The Cavs did everything LeBron wanted? Right, that issue can be debated to death, but eventually I'm gonna get the "well LeBron wanted Jamison not Amare" line, so I'll stop there. Lol.

LeBron did exactly what most free agents do, check out the landscape. Of course nobody would be dumb enough to defend The Decision. I'm talking about the apparent indecision of LeBron. What does Shaq expect LeBron to do? Lol. He was a freakin free agent, he had every right to go to other teams to see what was up.

LeBron owed it to Gilbert to tell him first though, ASAP. No doubt about that.

Shaq on the other hand, what he's talking about, I don't buy it.

[mKoz26]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I never said anything was "OK", especially "OK to handicap an organization".

Everything that happened last summer was the culmination of Gilbert not being able to put the right pieces in place. The Cavs did everything LeBron wanted? Right, that issue can be debated to death, but eventually I'm gonna get the "well LeBron wanted Jamison not Amare" line, so I'll stop there. Lol.

LeBron did exactly what most free agents do, check out the landscape. Of course nobody would be dumb enough to defend The Decision. I'm talking about the apparent indecision of LeBron. What does Shaq expect LeBron to do? Lol. He was a freakin free agent, he had every right to go to other teams to see what was up.

LeBron owed it to Gilbert to tell him first though, ASAP. No doubt about that.

Shaq on the other hand, what he's talking about, I don't buy it.

Well then I guess you don't believe the planning of the "Super Friends" back in Beijing. Because if that's true, LeBron already had his mind made up.

And Shaq was talking about LeBron's fake indecision as if LeBron didn't know where he was going. Again that goes back to the Beijing thing.

But I don't see what Shaq being Shaq has to do with him commenting on LeBron. Shaq just said that LeBron should've told everyone where he was going when he decided so the Cavs could make moves to rebuild the team.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Well then I guess you don't believe the planning of the "Super Friends" back in Beijing. Because if that's true, LeBron already had his mind made up.

And Shaq was talking about LeBron's fake indecision as if LeBron didn't know where he was going. Again that goes back to the Beijing thing.

But I don't see what Shaq being Shaq has to do with him commenting on LeBron. Shaq just said that LeBron should've told everyone where he was going when he decided so the Cavs could make moves to rebuild the team.

1. I'm not sure how I feel about the supposed "plan in 2008". Sure maybe they all wanted to play together I just don't think any of them knew how it would end up in reality. i.e. which team they would end up on, and/or if all 3 would be together as opposed to just 2/3 on the same team. Not to mention the other FA's like Amare, Boozer.. etc. etc.

2. I'm saying it's easy for Shaq to say this because he's never had to struggle with the caliber of his teammates. Ever. LeBron has always had to carry all the weight on his shoulders, the amount of help he got nowhere compares to Shaq. Therefore when LeBron finally became a FA, of course he was gonna take his time to decide where he wanted to go. The process wasn't gonna be an overnight thing.