The LeBron James Thread

[cgalligan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

LOL at one of the YT comments.

haha

10 char

[SoxFan01605]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

So, this question has to be asked... In Cleveland, was it really "the supporting casts" fault that we did not win? Or, was it more on LeBron for not playing like "LeBron" when the chips were down???

Honestly, it's both. The supporting cast didn't have enough to turn to if Lebron wasn't on his game 100%. He had to be dominant nearly every night for them to have a legit chance against any good team. For all the rumbling about his mentality, etc the guy carried that Cleveland team farther than most players could IMO.

That said, it's been clear to me (and is continuing to prove true) that LBJ just doesn't have that killer instinct. He's incredibly gifted, but sloppy, immature, and poorly focused.

I think he's kind of a bully in the sense that he'll tear apart a lesser player/team but shrink back if it's really taken to him. To be fair, I do think there is an unreasonable amount of pressure on him (aside from status based pressure...i.e. media scrutiny, etc), but it's also hard to feel sorry for him on that front since it's almost entirely self-created.

I just wish he'd get his **** together, stop making excuses, and man the hell up. I don't like his behavior at all, but he's a rare type of talent that I feel I should be enjoying more. His extracurricular nonsense and immaturity are distracting from the fact that we are witnessing an all-time great athlete when he steps on the court. It's a shame.

[wwharton]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Honestly, it's both. The supporting cast didn't have enough to turn to if Lebron wasn't on his game 100%. He had to be dominant nearly every night for them to have a legit chance against any good team. For all the rumbling about his mentality, etc the guy carried that Cleveland team farther than most players could IMO.

That said, it's been clear to me (and is continuing to prove true) that LBJ just doesn't have that killer instinct. He's incredibly gifted, but sloppy, immature, and poorly focused.

I think he's kind of a bully in the sense that he'll tear apart a lesser player/team but shrink back if it's really taken to him. To be fair, I do think there is an unreasonable amount of pressure on him (aside from status based pressure...i.e. media scrutiny, etc), but it's also hard to feel sorry for him on that front since it's almost entirely self-created.

I just wish he'd get his **** together, stop making excuses, and man the hell up. I don't like his behavior at all, but he's a rare type of talent that I feel I should be enjoying more. His extracurricular nonsense and immaturity are distracting from the fact that we are witnessing an all-time great athlete when he steps on the court. It's a shame.

excellent, excellent post

[NYJets]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I think he's kind of a bully in the sense that he'll tear apart a lesser player/team but shrink back if it's really taken to him. To be fair, I do think there is an unreasonable amount of pressure on him (aside from status based pressure...i.e. media scrutiny, etc), but it's also hard to feel sorry for him on that front since it's almost entirely self-created.

In some ways it seems that way, but he did dominate Boston and Chicago, both who were considered elite teams, and elite defensive teams. He played like a man possessed at the end of those games. Then from the start of this series he's just had a different mentality. It's so weird. Same with last year, Cleveland was up 2-1, and then he checked out. It's not like he's been quitting when the chips are down, he's been quitting when there's no reason to quit. I have no explanation, I just don't think it's as simple as him being a choker or a frontrunner like some say. It's extremely frustrating just as an NBA fan who wants him to be the player he has the talent to be.

[SoxFan01605]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

In some ways it seems that way, but he did dominate Boston and Chicago, both who were considered elite teams, and elite defensive teams. He played like a man possessed at the end of those games. Then from the start of this series he's just had a different mentality. It's so weird. Same with last year, Cleveland was up 2-1, and then he checked out. It's not like he's been quitting when the chips are down, he's been quitting when there's no reason to quit. I have no explanation, I just don't think it's as simple as him being a choker or a frontrunner like some say. It's extremely frustrating just as an NBA fan who wants him to be the player he has the talent to be.

Well, I was speaking in general and not just this playoff run, but I definitely see your point. I would say though, that I think a lot of it is how the other teams approach him as much as how he reacts.

The Celtics kind of stumbled into the postseason and age and injuries played a factor. LBJ played great (not taking that away from him) but it wasn't against the same Celtics that bounced him out of the playoffs a year ago (in terms of play, not personnel...although a lack of any presence up front-something that early in the year was thought to be a Celtics advantage-was also a factor. Without that advantage, the Celitcs just didn't match up well IMO). I also think he was simply geared up for that series. If you listened to him talk afterwards, you'd think he'd already one the championship.

For the Bulls, I didn't consider them "elite" but that's just me (very good, just not elite). They are young and inexperienced and Rose is kind of in a similar (to a lesser degree) situation to when Lebron was in Cleveland (offensively, I mean. Overall the Bulls are significantly better than LBJ's Cavs were though IMO).

That aside, I also think he was still riding high from the previous series and was matching up with guys who couldn't physically match up with him and he knew it. Nothing really went wrong for his team in either of those series.

That's kind of what I mean by the "bully" comment. When things go well he feeds off it and becomes very tough. When things go wrong or get tough for him, he slacks back. I don't know if "shrink" is the right word, but I think he can easily be thrown off of his game if someone goes at him.

I give the Mavs credit there too though, I think they have gameplanned for the Heat MUCH better than either Boston or Chicago. Overall, I don't think this current series is as much about Lebron as the media and some others are making it out to be. The Mavs have just been good when it counts this year and Dirks been amazing.

Lebron has certainly fallen back when it matters though, and I think if he found a way to get out of his own head a bit the story about his impact on the outcome of this current series would be a lot different. This series is far from over though...I think the Heat could still pull it off.

[wwharton]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I think I feel like stirring the pot a bit...

The Dallas Mavs have Dirk and what? We give players a lot of credit when they do well and the entire world sees it, but what did people really think of this year's version of Kidd, Terry, Marion and JJ? Chandler is a good defensive addition but if Dallas wasn't in the finals how "great" would he be considered? Honestly, I don't think people are overrating any of these guys now but my point is we have one superstar and a band of misfits.

Last year's Cavs had LBJ and what? Would you put the likes of Shaq (maybe the most consistent player in the playoffs last year for the Cavs), Mo Williams, Jamison, Delonte West, Hickson and sideshow Bob against today's Mavs minus Dirk (and Butler since he's been out all playoffs)?

Now I think there are some important things to consider. Dirk's style doesn't have him dominating the ball like LBJ. I think this lends to two things... 1) you can run a normal offense getting others naturally involved easier and 2) it allows players to play "their" game around the star much easier. But I also think the natural skills of the guys around Dirk are better suited for him. I've always felt that guys like Mo Williams and Jamison had to limit their game to fit in with James (either bc of the role of other players when you go iso so much, or bad coaching not having sets to make better use of their skills). I think Hickson was the best fit but he got lost in the rotation too much for some reason.

My point here isn't to say the Cavs could've/should've won, but more that I think the talk of the supporting cast being SO bad is overblown, and this year's Mavs being a perfect example of why I feel that way. That group wasn't the collection of "bums" that many make them out to be. And I don't think it's fair to just throw out that there's no way they could win anything. It would've taken a lot without another piece, but Dallas is showing that it's possible.

[Drewski]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I think I feel like stirring the pot a bit...

The Dallas Mavs have Dirk and what? We give players a lot of credit when they do well and the entire world sees it, but what did people really think of this year's version of Kidd, Terry, Marion and JJ? Chandler is a good defensive addition but if Dallas wasn't in the finals how "great" would he be considered? Honestly, I don't think people are overrating any of these guys now but my point is we have one superstar and a band of misfits.

Last year's Cavs had LBJ and what? Would you put the likes of Shaq (maybe the most consistent player in the playoffs last year for the Cavs), Mo Williams, Jamison, Delonte West, Hickson and sideshow Bob against today's Mavs minus Dirk (and Butler since he's been out all playoffs)?

Now I think there are some important things to consider. Dirk's style doesn't have him dominating the ball like LBJ. I think this lends to two things... 1) you can run a normal offense getting others naturally involved easier and 2) it allows players to play "their" game around the star much easier. But I also think the natural skills of the guys around Dirk are better suited for him. I've always felt that guys like Mo Williams and Jamison had to limit their game to fit in with James (either bc of the role of other players when you go iso so much, or bad coaching not having sets to make better use of their skills). I think Hickson was the best fit but he got lost in the rotation too much for some reason.

My point here isn't to say the Cavs could've/should've won, but more that I think the talk of the supporting cast being SO bad is overblown, and this year's Mavs being a perfect example of why I feel that way. That group wasn't the collection of "bums" that many make them out to be. And I don't think it's fair to just throw out that there's no way they could win anything. It would've taken a lot without another piece, but Dallas is showing that it's possible.

Seems every Friday I get way overwhelmed with work and can't give posts like this time. Glanced over and saw what point you were making, surprised it hasn't come up yet.

[ehh]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I think he's kind of a bully in the sense that he'll tear apart a lesser player/team but shrink back if it's really taken to him. To be fair, I do think there is an unreasonable amount of pressure on him.

Agreed.

He is really starting to remind me of A-Rod 2004-2008. A-Rod had the rep of killing team's 3rd-5th starter and hitting homers of mop up relievers in blow out Yankee wins - basically crush poor teams. He could never get it done in the post season or consistently punish quality pitching and he had unreal pressures on him. Both are goofy, weird personalities and primadonnas as well.

[ehh]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I think I feel like stirring the pot a bit...

The Dallas Mavs have Dirk and what?

IMO you answered your own question here...

Dirk's style doesn't have him dominating the ball like LBJ. I think this lends to two things... 1) you can run a normal offense getting others naturally involved easier and 2) it allows players to play "their" game around the star much easier. But I also think the natural skills of the guys around Dirk are better suited for him. I've always felt that guys like Mo Williams and Jamison had to limit their game to fit in with James (either bc of the role of other players when you go iso so much, or bad coaching not having sets to make better use of their skills). I think Hickson was the best fit but he got lost in the rotation too much for some reason.

The Mavs are a balanced, unselfish team with great ball movement for an NBA team. They make the opposing defense work for most of the shot clock and usually get open looks. All series we've talked about how many open looks Dallas has been missing, getting guys open isn't an issue for this team.

Cleveland's offense last year was LeBron vs the World.

Also, when looking at '10 Cleveland, the other two huge differences are leadership/toughness and coaching.

[wwharton]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Seems every Friday I get way overwhelmed with work and can't give posts like this time. Glanced over and saw what point you were making, surprised it hasn't come up yet.

Probably bc it was discussed to death a year ago, but I felt like scratching at the scab a bit. I was actually going to add that I didn't think this year's teams were on the same level as last year too, but Dallas went through the defending champion Lakers at pretty close to 100% (at least healthier than they were last year) and a quality OKC team so I don't think that's true either. I also believe that if James didn't space out last year the Cavs had a good shot at beating the Celtics, but I guess that's a different discussion.

Agreed.

He is really starting to remind me of A-Rod 2004-2008. A-Rod had the rep of killing team's 3rd-5th starter and hitting homers of mop up relievers in blow out Yankee wins - basically crush poor teams. He could never get it done in the post season or consistently punish quality pitching and he had unreal pressures on him. Both are goofy, weird personalities and primadonnas as well.

Wow, ARod is a pretty good comparison I never even thought of... for even more reasons than these that you listed.

[mKoz26]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Wow, ARod is a pretty good comparison I never even thought of... for even more reasons than these that you listed.

lol

[ehh]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Wow, ARod is a pretty good comparison I never even thought of... for even more reasons than these that you listed.

Yup. Another big one is that opposing players/coaches don't seem to respect or fear him all that much. Like when it got to the point where other teams were intentionally walking the Yanks' 3-hole to pitch to ARod in clutch situations.

[wwharton]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

IMO you answered your own question here...



The Mavs are a balanced, unselfish team with great ball movement for an NBA team. They make the opposing defense work for most of the shot clock and usually get open looks. All series we've talked about how many open looks Dallas has been missing, getting guys open isn't an issue for this team.

Cleveland's offense last year was LeBron vs the World.

Also, when looking at '10 Cleveland, the other two huge differences are leadership/toughness and coaching.

But the question (or leading statement I guess) is about the supporting cast. Whether it was James doing his own Iso thing, or Brown not having a good enough offense, I always thought the problem was more in the plays and sets than the talent. And while I agree that leadership was an issue, it's a head scratcher with LBJ, Shaq and Jamison on the team. That one shouldn't have been. But I think last year's Cavs was probably every bit as "talented" as this year's Mavs. They just didn't have the right situation to prove it... or the situation they had was actually good enough but the mutiny in the Boston series stopped them short of being able to find a way to make it work.

[wwharton]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

lol

lmao, that's not what I meant

Yup. Another big one is that opposing players/coaches don't seem to respect or fear him all that much. Like when it got to the point where other teams were intentionally walking the Yanks' 3-hole to pitch to ARod in clutch situations.

We can keep going... ARod left a team that hasn't won and he was the man to go to the evil empire and be on an All Star team. He's always put up good stats but has still been criticized for not being "good enough" bc of specific situations where he's seemed to "shrink" under pressure. He seems like he can be extremely likeable but then always does something stupid to make you remember why you don't like him. Lebron's flopping = ARod's stealing signs and running over the pitcher's mound (disrespecting the game). Both came to the majors earlier than usual and were happy go lucky kids that most people loved until they switched teams.

[ehh]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Yeah I don't think the talent was THAT big of an issue, the supporting Cavs weren't good enough to win a title but they shouldn't have gotten smoked in the second round like they did. But what is a team of role players going to do when their leader and star simply quits?

Everyone and their mother had issues with Mike Brown's offense so I don't think we need to spend too much time on that - it was just ugly and unimaginative.

To me the '10 Cavs were all about fun and games, dancing and taking pretend photos and then once **** got real in the playoffs and they got smacked in the mouth they (mostly LBJ) wanted no part of it.



As for this year's Mavs, their supporting cast is all veteran players who've mostly gone deep into the post season before. They have experience and toughness and tremendous resiliency/mental toughness. The Cavs' post season experience was pretty much Shaq and LBJ. Plus the Cavs didn't really have the interior presence that the Mavs do with Chandler. Varejao is and was a bitch and an overrated defender and Shaq was already starting to decompose. And of course Mo Williams was a ghost outside of that one half IIRC, though JET was on his way to pulling a Mo Williams until he thankfully snapped out of it.

Plus IMO no team in this year's postseason has a defense like the last year's Celtics did pre-Perkins injury.


EDIT: And great ARod commentary lol. The similarities are uncanny.