Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

So having various people's opinions about a player can't help you form an opinion of that player? If you talk at length to 10 people who watched Wilt Chamberlain play, and 6 say he was the greatest player they ever saw, and the other 4 say he wasn't, and each gives you reasons to support that, you can't then justify having your own opinion about how good he was?

and say a 10 year old kid today wants to find out if Michael Jordan really was as good as his "legend" would imply. That kid could go on YouTube and watch HUNDREDS of FULL GAMES that Michael Jordan played in (and see every little thing Jordan did to make him dominant in all aspects of the game), and thus compare what he is seeing to what he has seen from Kobe in his lifetime. You say that he can't justify saying that Michael Jordan is better than Kobe Bryant?

Simple enough concept: Players before 1975 don't have as much footage. We know that Wilt scored 100 points, but virtually no one knows what it was like, because it's not on film. Hence my comment about pre-'75 players. Your example is silly, because my question was "how many games did you see these guys play?"

So if you've seen hundreds of hours each of Bill Russell, Wes Unseld, Jerry West etc, then by all means, comment in this thread. If you haven't seen at least a season's worth of these players, then your opinion is worthless as an observer. You can opine on whether someone was great based on what you're told, but you have no point of comparison for their actual skill sets.

How did they react to a double team? How did they work around bigger defenders? What kind of pressure did opposing coaches put on them to slow them down? What did they do during clutch situations? Did they grab crucial rebounds over bigger defenders?

These are all things that should affect your opinion when ranking great players, but you can't factor them in if you haven't seen the footage.

Your opinion is worthless without observation. Statistics and anecdotes are no substitute for watching the games be played.

[Jukeman]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

Opinions are worthless on this site..Its either your Right or Wrong..

[youvalss]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

I'd say Marvin "Element" Johnson. The guy was a beast!

Spoiler

Yeah, just made it up, since like others have said - opinions don't matter here.

[st0rmb11]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

Simple enough concept: Players before 1975 don't have as much footage. We know that Wilt scored 100 points, but virtually no one knows what it was like, because it's not on film. Hence my comment about pre-'75 players. Your example is silly, because my question was "how many games did you see these guys play?"

So if you've seen hundreds of hours each of Bill Russell, Wes Unseld, Jerry West etc, then by all means, comment in this thread. If you haven't seen at least a season's worth of these players, then your opinion is worthless as an observer. You can opine on whether someone was great based on what you're told, but you have no point of comparison for their actual skill sets.

How did they react to a double team? How did they work around bigger defenders? What kind of pressure did opposing coaches put on them to slow them down? What did they do during clutch situations? Did they grab crucial rebounds over bigger defenders?

These are all things that should affect your opinion when ranking great players, but you can't factor them in if you haven't seen the footage.

Your opinion is worthless without observation. Statistics and anecdotes are no substitute for watching the games be played.

Ok, we'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

[KG]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

So having various people's opinions about a player can't help you form an opinion of that player? If you talk at length to 10 people who watched Wilt Chamberlain play, and 6 say he was the greatest player they ever saw, and the other 4 say he wasn't, and each gives you reasons to support that, you can't then justify having your own opinion about how good he was?

and say a 10 year old kid today wants to find out if Michael Jordan really was as good as his "legend" would imply. That kid could go on YouTube and watch HUNDREDS of FULL GAMES that Michael Jordan played in (and see every little thing Jordan did to make him dominant in all aspects of the game), and thus compare what he is seeing to what he has seen from Kobe in his lifetime. You say that he can't justify saying that Michael Jordan is better than Kobe Bryant?

That's the thing though, you can't go to youtube and watch a full Wilt or Bill Russell game. In the end you're still basing your opinion off other opinions.

[st0rmb11]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

But, you can form your own opinion off of what other people have told you. And this is an opinionative thread, so having your own opinion qualifies you to answer within this thread.

[KG]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

But, you can form your own opinion off of what other people have told you. And this is an opinionative thread, so having your own opinion qualifies you to answer within this thread.

But how do you know their opinion is free of bias and not some nostalgic view of how things were back in the "good ole days"? I'm not trying to call your pops a liar, just saying that folks tend to look back at their golden years and tell you how great their era was.

[Rocky]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

Simple enough concept: Players before 1975 don't have as much footage. We know that Wilt scored 100 points, but virtually no one knows what it was like, because it's not on film. Hence my comment about pre-'75 players. Your example is silly, because my question was "how many games did you see these guys play?"

So if you've seen hundreds of hours each of Bill Russell, Wes Unseld, Jerry West etc, then by all means, comment in this thread. If you haven't seen at least a season's worth of these players, then your opinion is worthless as an observer. You can opine on whether someone was great based on what you're told, but you have no point of comparison for their actual skill sets.

How did they react to a double team? How did they work around bigger defenders? What kind of pressure did opposing coaches put on them to slow them down? What did they do during clutch situations? Did they grab crucial rebounds over bigger defenders?

These are all things that should affect your opinion when ranking great players, but you can't factor them in if you haven't seen the footage.

Your opinion is worthless without observation. Statistics and anecdotes are no substitute for watching the games be played.

We can look at stats, championships, all-NBA teams, etc. to cognitively figure out who was the greatest man. I hate this logic. No we didn't see them in person, but we can there are a number of factors, historical data, and references that we can use as flashpoints.

With your kind of logic, we can't say that Bill Russell was greater than Tyson Chandler because we've never seen him play. Or that it is impossible to say that Babe Ruth is one of the 5 greatest baseball players ever because we don't have any footage.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

Uhh no we draw certain conclusions [Russell was probably better than Tyson Chandler] but it would be too difficult to draw other ones [Russell was better than Kareem].

I hate comparing any one from the 60's and before to anyone from the 80's and beyond. Completely different game back then with different athletic builds.

Tyson Chandler back in Russell's time? Don't even wanna go there because I would probably say a bunch of crazy stuff.

[KG]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

We can look at stats, championships, all-NBA teams, etc. to cognitively figure out who was the greatest man. I hate this logic. No we didn't see them in person, but we can there are a number of factors, historical data, and references that we can use as flashpoints.

With your kind of logic, we can't say that Bill Russell was greater than Tyson Chandler because we've never seen him play. Or that it is impossible to say that Babe Ruth is one of the 5 greatest baseball players ever because we don't have any footage.

You can still use common sense though and baseball is a sport highly dependent upon stats.

[wwharton]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

"If you haven't seen them play, you're not talking sports, you're playing Pokemon."

Man, if I were one to add quotes to my sig, this one would definitely be there, lmao.

But, you can form your own opinion off of what other people have told you. And this is an opinionative thread, so having your own opinion qualifies you to answer within this thread.

People have watched the exact same games here and I've seen:

- Chris Paul being dropped simply because he's been hurt most of the year
- Gasol being called the best offensive center in the league and finals MVP
- Rondo being called a top 3 PG right now and on path to possibly best player in the NBA
- LBJ called hands down better than Kobe, and then hands down worse within a week


You may agree or disagree with any of those. The point is, these are the opinions of people as they watch these players play RIGHT NOW. You can't take every opinion as fact. There are tiers where it's probably safe to make assumptions (like the Russell vs Chandler example given) but, imo, it'd be impossible to come up with a top 5 or 10 players that I've never seen list.

[Rocky]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

You can still use common sense though and baseball is a sport highly dependent upon stats.

Where do we draw the line though? Why can't we use historical data and perspective to form an argument on who was the "greatest"? When trying to determine the greatest in anything, this is what you use (greatest baseball player, president, war victory, etc.) If we were talking about who was better or who could win 1 on 1, than it would be a different argument.

[KG]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

Where do we draw the line though? Why can't we use historical data and perspective to form an argument on who was the "greatest"? When trying to determine the greatest in anything, this is what you use (greatest baseball player, president, war victory, etc.) If we were talking about who was better or who could win 1 on 1, than it would be a different argument.

It's not different. A 1 on 1 argument would be equally as subjective but I have no idea where you draw the line. The discussion is only worthwhile if you're talking about great players. Arguing about whether or not Tyson Chandler is better than Russell doesn't make sense since one dominated their era while the other didn't.

I brought up stats in baseball because it's such an individualistic sport. Stats aren't skewed by systems like they could be in basketball. I'm not a baseball fan but I know things like RBI's could vary depending on the talent level around you but 500 HRs is exactly what it is, 500 HRs.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

The ususal suspects get my meaning. Just for S&Gs, here is some footage of Chamberlain and Russell.
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Here is a slanted vid of Wilt vs. Kareem(vid makes it look like Wilt is MVP, but Lakers lose, typical of short sample sized clips) LMAO @ the obvious goaltend at 3:01
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The same game, but with more honest footage(Kareem dropped 39, haha)
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The capper on Wilt vs. Kareem.
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lysfZ_fo9k8&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lysfZ_fo9k8&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Some of that glow fades when you watch the games and realize Lebron would average 900PPG in 1965.

[KG]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

Whenever I see old Wilt with the goatee I can't help but think of when he was in Conan