Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

[JVal3208]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

If we're going by what Bornindamecca's saying, everyone on this site will probably say Magic or Bird. More than likely the last guys any of the posters on this site got to see on TV.

[st0rmb11]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

I hate comparing any one from the 60's and before to anyone from the 80's and beyond. Completely different game back then with different athletic builds.

But the era in which players played is part of what goes along with chosing the all-time greats. We all know (whether we actually saw it or not) that the athleticism when Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain, etc. were dominating wasn't near what it is today. Elgin Baylor was probably the greatest athlete (prior to Chamberlain) in the league. But, he would have probably been an average athlete in the league today. So, you have to look at it in regards to his competition level. In his era, Baylor was essentially LeBron James athletically.

When you're deciding on that greats, you don't compare them to other eras of players and say "well what would he have done if he played NOW..) because the game has changed so much; you look at what they did in regards to who they played. You can't hold it against Chamberlain that he never played against anyone his size (while in his prime). There is nothing he could do about that. Just like you can't hold it against LeBron and Kobe that the league today doesn't allow hand checking like it did when Jordan played. Could Kobe have been as good against REAL defenses? We'll never know. But we can't hold it against him that he hasn't had to play under the rules of the past. We take it as "well, he's playing against what he has to play against and dominating." It in no way lessens his legacy.

I really think that there is a fine line between "comparing eras" and "taking eras into account", but there is a difference. Wilt dominated what he had to play against, so he's an all-time great. You can't penalize him for not having to play against Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, etc. You just understand that for what he did against who he was playing, he ranks himself as an all-time great.


and again, let me say, I still don't think you have to have seen someone to know how good they were. You can look at old box scores and see what Player A did against the best team in comparison to what Player B did against the best team, and study whole seasons of box scores, and come to a conclusion about who was the best player that year. (without having EVER seen a game.)

I understand that many of our elders like to believe that no one in the past 20 years can touch what they saw when they were growing up. But, even then, if you talk to 20 men that are biased to their times, and 15 of the 20 say that Chamberlain was the greatest they ever saw, the man must have been doing something. And, anyone with enough common sense, can take into account when someone is being biased, and make a decision on their own based on other players they've studied.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

That's exactly my point though.

So how can you respond to the topic if it's too difficult to compare eras.

The ways you presented are not very efficient nor encompassing. Oh well, if you guys want to have at it, so be it. I was just trying to rain on parades.

[st0rmb11]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

But I'm saying, you don't have to compare eras to determine one's greatness. You look at what Player A did against his competition and what player B did against his.

No need to try to cross the two and question what each would have done against the other's competition.

We all know (whether we saw him or not) that Chamberlain dominated his era like no one ever has. Do we "take that with a grain of salt" because of who he played against? No. Most people put him top 3 or 4 all-time.


and rain on parades? it's been raining in here since the first page. This has become the same as every other "Greatest of All-Time" thread. Not sure why I didn't fight the urge to post in here.

[wwharton]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

But I'm saying, you don't have to compare eras to determine one's greatness. You look at what Player A did against his competition and what player B did against his.

No need to try to cross the two and question what each would have done against the other's competition.

We all know (whether we saw him or not) that Chamberlain dominated his era like no one ever has. Do we "take that with a grain of salt" because of who he played against? No. Most people put him top 3 or 4 all-time.


and rain on parades? it's been raining in here since the first page. This has become the same as every other "Greatest of All-Time" thread. Not sure why I didn't fight the urge to post in here.

I don't know if you're seeing the point. You say most put Wilt top 3 or 4 all time. Which one is it. Is he 1, 2, 3 or 4? Is he the top center? This isn't even about eras imo. If I had watched Wilt as much as I have the other guys I'd trust my opinion but I just haven't. I'm comfortable saying he's top 5 but if we're picking the ONE greatest player, it's literally impossible to say based on stats and and stories by the old guys you just criticized.

[ehh]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

It's so funny with Kareem that they only show his skyhook in slow-mo unless it's live game footage. Do you ever see a highlight reel of that shot at game speed?

[AlexBrady]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

I'm not going to count Larry or Magic since they were in that same era for the most part

In no specific order except Kareem at 1

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Oscar Robertson
Elgin Baylor/Jerry West/Rick Barry (tie)

Its criminal how underrated Rick Barry is now, he was every single bit as good as Larry Bird.

Barry, hell of a player. Sniper accurate jumper and free throw shooter (underhanded!). Lynchpin of his team's offense and a terrific passer. Defensively, I always thought he gambled too much but for the most part he was a good team defender. He was every bit as competitive as Bird was.

[JBH3]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

It's not different. A 1 on 1 argument would be equally as subjective but I have no idea where you draw the line. The discussion is only worthwhile if you're talking about great players. Arguing about whether or not Tyson Chandler is better than Russell doesn't make sense since one dominated their era while the other didn't.

I brought up stats in baseball because it's such an individualistic sport. Stats aren't skewed by systems like they could be in basketball. I'm not a baseball fan but I know things like RBI's could vary depending on the talent level around you but 500 HRs is exactly what it is, 500 HRs.

This is wrong. Stats are skewed by things other than an individual. Pitchers who pitch in pitcher parks vs hitters parks, and hitters that reap those same benefits or don't. RBI wouldn't just vary on the fact that guys are on base, but also the defense you're up against; some players are faster than others and get to gaps quicker, cutting off run production. 500 HRs isn't 500 HRs either. 500 HRs in Petco is waaaay different than 500 HRs in CBP.

With that said, there's more that should be done w/ basketball statistics. SABRE metrics are a great tool to measure players by in baseball, splits are good too, but IMO basketball doesn't have enough.

Where's Dr. J at in here?

[Shawnj86]

Re: Greatest Player BEFORE MJ Era

I would add these 3 to the top 10
but these 3 are the top 3 Greatest Knicks player
Willis Reed
Walt Frazier
Patrick Ewing