Chris Bosh is not a superstar

[The15thunter]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

Re: KG

I think we need to add another level to the evaluation of a player. KG was a superstar but he wasn't an Alpha-Male. Nothing wrong with that. Pippen, Mchale, Worthy, 00-02 Kobe all made careers out of the role. I live in MN and KG was everything you'd want in a basketball player. That being said, most fans in MN always felt like he wasn't a true number 1 player that will carry a team to a title. He just seemed so much more comfortable in Boston when the offense didn't run through him and he could just play great defense and fill in the blanks.

i can agree to that. he has a dominant personality, but he doesn't have that "it" factor that separates alpha male elite players from everyone else.

kg is the guy that has the skills to be a franchise guy, but he had a better suited mind and mentality for a role where he could be the glue guy. nothing wrong with being one of the sport's best second bananas of all-time.

[PrettyT11]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

i say this in the most unbiased way, because despite being from baltimore, i'm not really a carmelo fan.

i think carmelo is a better offensive player. 'nique was more explosive and the better dunker, but carmelo can hurt you from three ('nique knew better than to try that), is a superior mid-range scorer and post scorer. 'nique is better going to the hoop, but even that isn't blowing carmelo out of the water because he's very effective going to the hole and gets fouled with regularlty.

carmelo is a better rebounder, particularly offensively. he's also added some pride to his defensive efforts that seem to have evaded dominique. 'melo is a better creator and passer, as well.

i understand that dominique had to contend with the pistons, bulls and celtics, while 'melo basically just has the lakers and a bunch of team that don't compare. but, i think he is someone i'd be more comfortable with carrying my franchise as the foundation piece, because he is a more dynamic offensive weapon, a better defender, and a better rebounder, while not having the same level of selfish statistics driven nature that wilkins had.

The only thing I really going to disagree with from this post is the rebounding thing. Melo is in no way, shape, form, or fashion a better offensive rebounder than Nique. Nique was one the best offensive rebounding wing players in the game. He was always always at or above 3 offensive rebounds a night into his 30's. He was even in the top 10 in the league in offensive rebounding a couple of season. Melo has never got above 2.3. Nique did better than that as a 37 year old man coming off the bench after a ruptured achellies.

But just to finish this up and get it back on topic better I wouldn't take either of them or Bosh to build my team around. They all are flawed in key areas if you are making a title winning team. They would be way down the list. I'm not saying Nique was a no doubt about it franchise man but he did do a very good job of leading a winning franchise and competing well against championship teams. He showed that it was possible to build a winning team around him. Could he have been better?? Sure. Could other guys have done more?? NO DOUBT ABOUT IT. But I wouldn't just lump him into the group of guys who just scored points on bad teams.

[The15thunter]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

to keep discussion moving back towards a bosh-centric perspective...

i would not want chris bosh as my centerpiece. i think he would be an effective complementary piece, though i have my doubts about him being the second-best player on a championship team unless that best player is a certified stud (lebron, wade, kobe).

him being your third-best player is obviously great, though.

[pietasterp]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

My only semi-off-topic comment, then I'll bail (I promise) and let the thread return to Bosh...but I simply have to defend Dominique Wilkins against the chrono-centric trap that we are always in - not just here, but on ESPN, popular media, everywhere: 'Nique was, flat-out one of the best players I've ever seen play. I don't know where on the list he would rank, but he's in the conversation of best of the past 25 years. I know the mists of time have clouded his memory and the fact that he happened to play on a mediocre team during arguably the best era in NBA history doesn't help, but I distinctly remember watching him as much as I could (and I'm not even a Hawks fan) because he was as dynamic a player as I have ever seen. Not just a prolific scorer (although he was that, winning the scoring title on a handful of occasions), but a great rebounder, good passer for his position, and of course as exciting as all get-out. And a much better shooter than people recall (he averaged 30+ points per game in his prime, and they weren't on 15 dunks...), including a decent 3-point shot (albeit later in his career). He led the Hawks to 4 straight 50+ win seasons and were it not for the dynasty Celtics and Pistons, most likely would have gone to the Eastern Finals and/or NBA Finals at least once.

If you want to be inspired, watch video of his game 7 duel with Larry Bird in the 1988 Eastern Semis (especially the 4th quarter). Magical. I think Bosh, 'Melo, and others have something to prove yet before they're in 'Nique territory...

[The15thunter]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

My only semi-off-topic comment, then I'll bail (I promise) and let the thread return to Bosh...but I simply have to defend Dominique Wilkins against the chrono-centric trap that we are always in - not just here, but on ESPN, popular media, everywhere: 'Nique was, flat-out one of the best players I've ever seen play. I don't know where on the list he would rank, but he's in the conversation of best of the past 25 years. I know the mists of time have clouded his memory and the fact that he happened to play on a mediocre team during arguably the best era in NBA history doesn't help, but I distinctly remember watching him as much as I could (and I'm not even a Hawks fan) because he was as dynamic a player as I have ever seen. Not just a prolific scorer (although he was that, winning the scoring title on a handful of occasions), but a great rebounder, good passer for his position, and of course as exciting as all get-out. And a much better shooter than people recall (he averaged 30+ points per game in his prime, and they weren't on 15 dunks...), including a decent 3-point shot (albeit later in his career). He led the Hawks to 4 straight 50+ win seasons and were it not for the dynasty Celtics and Pistons, most likely would have gone to the Eastern Finals and/or NBA Finals at least once.

If you want to be inspired, watch video of his game 7 duel with Larry Bird in the 1988 Eastern Semis (especially the 4th quarter). Magical. I think Bosh, 'Melo, and others have something to prove yet before they're in 'Nique territory...

let me be clear, i'm not knocking dominique wilkins in any way. i respect him for his contributions to the game and how he carried those atlanta teams on his back.

all i'm saying is he's not a franchise player. top-notch player? no doubt. top 50 all-timer? you bet.

a few of your points i have to beg to differ with, though.

dominique wilkins is as dynamic a player you've ever seen? really? in my opinion, a dynamic player is one that can hurt you in a variety of ways. if dominique goes 5-25 from the field, in what other way can he help your team win? players like magic, bird, jordan, kobe, lebron, hakeem, etc. are guys i think of in terms of dynamic, in that they had multiple ways to score, and if they weren't scoring, they still had at least one other elite skill that enabled them to be extremely useful on the court.

he only won one scoring title (85-86), which is a minor nitpick, but i wanted to clarify that point.

i don't think i can give him a lot of credit for his passing. a career average of 2.5 assists isn't glowing, and i know numbers aren't everything, but that's not a strong suit.

he developed a pretty formidable jumper, which is a stark contrast from him being just a dunker to begin his career. he became serviecable from three-point distance at the back end of his career, but that was not a part of his game for the majority of his days.

and yes, his duel with bird is one of the great playoff memories and an iconic moment in hawks history, but that doesn't change the fact that bird lit him up.

again, i'm not knocking dominique, he was a stud, an all-timer. all i'm saying is he's not an elite franchise-foundation type of guy. he has too many holes in his game that need masking to be a franchise guy. and i still doesn't see what part of his game makes him better than what we see from carmelo anthony, especially if he continues along the career arc he's on.

[dsallupinyaarea]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

let me be clear, i'm not knocking dominique wilkins in any way. i respect him for his contributions to the game and how he carried those atlanta teams on his back.

all i'm saying is he's not a franchise player. top-notch player? no doubt. top 50 all-timer? you bet.

a few of your points i have to beg to differ with, though.

dominique wilkins is as dynamic a player you've ever seen? really? in my opinion, a dynamic player is one that can hurt you in a variety of ways. if dominique goes 5-25 from the field, in what other way can he help your team win? players like magic, bird, jordan, kobe, lebron, hakeem, etc. are guys i think of in terms of dynamic, in that they had multiple ways to score, and if they weren't scoring, they still had at least one other elite skill that enabled them to be extremely useful on the court.

he only won one scoring title (85-86), which is a minor nitpick, but i wanted to clarify that point.

i don't think i can give him a lot of credit for his passing. a career average of 2.5 assists isn't glowing, and i know numbers aren't everything, but that's not a strong suit.

he developed a pretty formidable jumper, which is a stark contrast from him being just a dunker to begin his career. he became serviecable from three-point distance at the back end of his career, but that was not a part of his game for the majority of his days.

and yes, his duel with bird is one of the great playoff memories and an iconic moment in hawks history, but that doesn't change the fact that bird lit him up.

again, i'm not knocking dominique, he was a stud, an all-timer. all i'm saying is he's not an elite franchise-foundation type of guy. he has too many holes in his game that need masking to be a franchise guy. and i still doesn't see what part of his game makes him better than what we see from carmelo anthony, especially if he continues along the career arc he's on.

Shameless Kobe plug. He pulled down 15 rebounds and played great defense on Rondo on a night he went 6-24. If nique goes 6-24 he doens't pull down 15 rebounds.

[The15thunter]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

Shameless Kobe plug. He pulled down 15 rebounds and played great defense on Rondo on a night he went 6-24. If nique goes 6-24 he doens't pull down 15 rebounds.

to be fair, dominique had 12 games in the regular season in his career where he got 15 or more boards, including one at the age of 36. of course, the argument could be made that overwhelmingly more nights than not, he's going to get his buckets. that i can agree with, but in terms of dynamic, i can't give him that, nor can i put him in the pantheon of legends atop the hall of fame pyramid.

again, i'm not saying he didn't have skills or wasn't a dominant player, but if he's not scoring, he's not going to change the game.

[ehh]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

People need to chill with the "but he had 15 rebounds" thing. He was guarding Rondo, sagging off to the FT line or lower so he was basically in the paint the entire game. Makes it a lot easier to rebound when that's the case plus without Perkins clogging up the paint. The man had a doo-doo Game 7, there's no sugar coating it.

[dsallupinyaarea]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

People need to chill with the "but he had 15 rebounds" thing. He was guarding Rondo, sagging off to the FT line or lower so he was basically in the paint the entire game. Makes it a lot easier to rebound when that's the case plus without Perkins clogging up the paint. The man had a doo-doo Game 7, there's no sugar coating it.

Rondo was arguably the Celtics best offensive player in 2010.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

Rondo was arguably the Celtics best offensive player in 2010.

Regardless, trying to pass off Kobe's rebounding total from game 7 as "another way to impact the game outside of scoring" is pretty lame.

LeBron had 19 rebounds in his last game last year, and by all means he had a terrible last two or three games. Only difference between James and Bryant is that Bryant has the most and best help in the NBA.

[jeebs9]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

Regardless, trying to pass off Kobe's rebounding total from game 7 as "another way to impact the game outside of scoring" is pretty lame.

LeBron had 19 rebounds in his last game last year, and by all means he had a terrible last two or three games. Only difference between James and Bryant is that Bryant has the most and best help in the NBA.

Thats the same point I was making in the other thread

[ffaacc03]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

to keep discussion moving back towards a bosh-centric perspective...

i would not want chris bosh as my centerpiece. i think he would be an effective complementary piece, though i have my doubts about him being the second-best player on a championship team unless that best player is a certified stud (lebron, wade, kobe).

him being your third-best player is obviously great, though.

I wouldnt want him either as my center piece, we agree ... then again, he is a superstar thus not: a franchise type player.

[ffaacc03]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

Thats the same point I was making in the other thread

I agree with you both.

[pietasterp]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

let me be clear, i'm not knocking dominique wilkins in any way. i respect him for his contributions to the game and how he carried those atlanta teams on his back.

all i'm saying is he's not a franchise player. top-notch player? no doubt. top 50 all-timer? you bet.

a few of your points i have to beg to differ with, though.

dominique wilkins is as dynamic a player you've ever seen? really? in my opinion, a dynamic player is one that can hurt you in a variety of ways. if dominique goes 5-25 from the field, in what other way can he help your team win? players like magic, bird, jordan, kobe, lebron, hakeem, etc. are guys i think of in terms of dynamic, in that they had multiple ways to score, and if they weren't scoring, they still had at least one other elite skill that enabled them to be extremely useful on the court.

he only won one scoring title (85-86), which is a minor nitpick, but i wanted to clarify that point.

i don't think i can give him a lot of credit for his passing. a career average of 2.5 assists isn't glowing, and i know numbers aren't everything, but that's not a strong suit.

he developed a pretty formidable jumper, which is a stark contrast from him being just a dunker to begin his career. he became serviecable from three-point distance at the back end of his career, but that was not a part of his game for the majority of his days.

and yes, his duel with bird is one of the great playoff memories and an iconic moment in hawks history, but that doesn't change the fact that bird lit him up.

again, i'm not knocking dominique, he was a stud, an all-timer. all i'm saying is he's not an elite franchise-foundation type of guy. he has too many holes in his game that need masking to be a franchise guy. and i still doesn't see what part of his game makes him better than what we see from carmelo anthony, especially if he continues along the career arc he's on.

All good points, 15hunter, and duly noted - thanks for the clarification. I realize you weren't knocking 'Nique, I just think sometimes we're so focused on our own times that guys that were anything but completely transcendent all-time stars get overlooked. I don't disagree with anything you said per se, I'll just quickly reply to a few points:

- I do think he's a franchise player; he carried the Hawks to four 50+ win seasons, which in that era of the Eastern Conference is no small feat. That he didn't win more in the playoffs belies the fact that without him, the Hawks would have been nowhere. In my opinion, anyway, that makes him a franchise player
- I guess it really depends on your definition of "dynamic"...I just meant energetic, explosive, exciting. Not necessarily multi-dimensional.
- Re: that point, I grant you that he wasn't the most multi-dimensional player ever, but he did adjust his game over the years to do more, and in the era before passing forwards were all the rage, his 3+ assist/game average during his prime years wasn't bad....definitely not a strong-point, though.
- Bird on the whole was better than 'Nique, but in that particular game (game 7, 1988 Eastern Semis), Wilkins put up 47 (on 19-23 shooting!) to Bird's 34...if they swapped teams, I think 'Nique may have been considered one of the all-time greats.
- I think Dominique was a better pure scorer than 'Melo and probably a better rebounder. Anthony still has a lot of career left, and maybe it's a wash at this point between the two (with Anthony still having plenty of good seasons left in the tank), but of course I'm just giving an opinion...off the top of my head, I think the numbers would say they're about even at this point.

Re: Bosh, he's a good solid player, and as a 3rd option probably one of the best 3rd options in basketball. I don't think he's worth top-tier money, and I'm frankly happy my team didn't go after him (not that the Pistons even had any intention to, or that he would want to play for the 'Stones); I think any situation in which a team spends big to get him and tries to build around him would be a failure. To his credit, I think Bosh realized that as well. Seems like he'll fit nicely in that lineup, but that just makes him more like Lamar Odom than a real superstar....

[rangerrick012]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

Didn't the Raps go to the playoffs 2 times with Bosh....lol People forget... thats a bad point to bring up...lol

Making the playoffs back when the West was loaded > making the playoffs in a weak East.