If There Was No Michael Jordan

[dragonyeuw]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

but I would also add that Kobe is much more agile while Mike was much more explosive.

Sorry don't agree, having seen enough of the younger Jordan, there's no way Kobe is as agile as 80's Jordan.

He was as explosive and athletic as anyone who you would want.

Jordan, Vince Carter, Dominique Wilkins, Shawn Kemp, Lebron James, Clyde Drexler trump Kobe in both categories. Hell, I'd put Pippen in there too, he was a crazy athlete. Those are just the names off the top of my head.

Personally I would argue that the Mike's agility advantage over Kobe's is equal to or greater than his advantage as a leaper.

Yes.

i'm as big a kobe fan as there is, but you can't really argue that jordan had practically every measurable athletic advantage over kobe.

Yes again.

[spit_bubble]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

I haven't read through this thread, so I may be repeating some things...

The biggest difference I see between Kobe and MJ is that even though Jordan eventually had an excellent supporting cast around him, you sort of got the sense that the Bulls won all because of him. This mystique about him was made all the more intense because it was a stark contrast to the era that he eventually dethroned: the Magic and Bird era of team play and passing the basketball.

Jordan also ushered in a new era of NBA players who became like mini-corporations, complete with endorsement deals, shoes named after them, etc. These players often shunned any notion of the seemingly ancient style of play seen in the 80s, to the point where the league actually had to change the rules to cater to their game. The drop off that came after Jordan was due to the mystique wearing off, and the realization that players can't actually carry teams on their backs.

It's hard to say where Kobe would sit if MJ wasn't the player he was, but if Jordan wasn't Jordan then Kobe wouldn't be Kobe. That's sort of the thing I guess: Kobe hasn't really brought anything new to the table. He instead just pretty much mimicked what another player already did, and did so with less drama, less passion, and less fire. Jordan on the other hand carved his own niche, changed the game, and changed the perception of the game. He fought his way to the top and stayed there, to the point where he seemed invincible.

If there was no Michael Jordan, or if MJ were a lesser player, the NBA landscape would obviously look entirely different. Many other fine players would have rings, players that were denied by Jordan's Bulls. The style of play you see on the court would probably be different. There might even still be a team in Seattle if it weren't for Jordan.

This huge impact made by both the pure talent of MJ and the circumstances in which he played, all help make his legacy more or less untouchable. Kobe, as good as he is, will probably leave a legacy that's a little more approachable by future players.

[The15thunter]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

That's sort of the thing I guess: Kobe hasn't really brought anything new to the table.

i'd say his use of footwork from a scoring guard position is something that he can claim to be his. granted, jordan and many others have had moves and tortured guys, but kobe's use of footwork and implementation of a post game from the foul line and beyond is really his and his alone. i'd say from 2005 and beyond, he's really carved his own niche with his use of pivots, reverse pivots and seemingly complex moves that all revolve around simple footwork.

[Cleric13]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

I saw the "second coming" Jordan time (95-96), and... I have no words, was something incredible, I remember myself jumping in that "steal and winner jump shot" against Utah in his last final. I saw that Jordan, and I still think that was THE best, the only one, the all-time chosen one. But (and there is always a but), you are right, almost always it is about what you have or have not seen. I know people who watched Magic, and they still tell me "mm... I don't know, Magic was something else...", I watched people saying "Dr J was more spectacular", "Larry was THE most complete player", etc etc etc.

For me... MJ, for you... The black Mamba (man... I love that nickname ), it's not good, it's not bad, just it's

[spit_bubble]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

i'd say his use of footwork from a scoring guard position is something that he can claim to be his. granted, jordan and many others have had moves and tortured guys, but kobe's use of footwork and implementation of a post game from the foul line and beyond is really his and his alone. i'd say from 2005 and beyond, he's really carved his own niche with his use of pivots, reverse pivots and seemingly complex moves that all revolve around simple footwork.

I was speaking more in terms of broad strokes, and not fine detail. Yes Kobe's game is different from Jordan's, but in the grand scheme of things it's a pretty insignificant detail.

[The15thunter]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

I was speaking more in terms of broad strokes, and not fine detail. Yes Kobe's game is different from Jordan's, but in the grand scheme of things it's a pretty insignificant detail.

we certainly agree there, if only for the totality of jordan's game. it will be hard for a shooting guard to ever originate anything after jordan, simply due to the difficulty in providing something new to the sport, as well as trying not to be lost in the shadow of mj. jordan did everything at an exceptionally high level, so it's pretty much impossible to be a good shooting guard and not have stolen as much as you can from the best player to ever play basketball.

[dragonyeuw]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

i'd say his use of footwork from a scoring guard position is something that he can claim to be his. granted, jordan and many others have had moves and tortured guys, but kobe's use of footwork and implementation of a post game from the foul line and beyond is really his and his alone. i'd say from 2005 and beyond, he's really carved his own niche with his use of pivots, reverse pivots and seemingly complex moves that all revolve around simple footwork.

Jordan utilized much of the same footwork during his second comeback, except it was more or less in the post. Kobe may have extended that footwork to free himself up on the perimeter for range jumpshots, but it still gives the impression of 'been there, seen that.'

Which, I suspect, is why people have been so quick to judge Kobe a Jordan clone, even moreso than someone like Lebron, or Tmac, or Vince Carter. Those guys games ( the latter two when they were in their prime of course) had certain elements of their games that may have been copied from Jordan, but you never got the impression that they were literally channeling Jordan like Kobe does. Kobe's game is a very close approximation of Jordan from 32-35, after the baseball stinct.

To piggyback on someone earlier, Wade is probably the closet to the younger Jordan in terms of playing style, and even he isn't 'that' close. Most of today's top shooting guards employ much fancier dribbling than Jordan did. Jordan's dribbling was more rudimentary, he'd apply the odd crossover and between the legs, but largely he used an assortment of head and shoulder fakes, that 'pump fake' move where he palmed the ball in one hand to get the defender to react, and an explosive first step.

[The15thunter]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

Jordan utilized much of the same footwork during his second comeback, except it was more or less in the post. Kobe may have extended that footwork to free himself up on the perimeter for range jumpshots, but it still gives the impression of 'been there, seen that.'

Which, I suspect, is why people have been so quick to judge Kobe a Jordan clone, even moreso than someone like Lebron, or Tmac, or Vince Carter. Those guys games ( the latter two when they were in their prime of course) had certain elements of their games that may have been copied from Jordan, but you never got the impression that they were literally channeling Jordan like Kobe does. Kobe's game is a very close approximation of Jordan from 32-35, after the baseball stinct.

To piggyback on someone earlier, Wade is probably the closet to the younger Jordan in terms of playing style, and even he isn't 'that' close. Most of today's top shooting guards employ much fancier dribbling than Jordan did. Jordan's dribbling was more rudimentary, he'd apply the odd crossover and between the legs, but largely he used an assortment of head and shoulder fakes, that 'pump fake' move where he palmed the ball in one hand to get the defender to react, and an explosive first step.

i think jordan's footwork was simpler. granted, he had the ability to do multiple fakes and moves, but he was more likely to give you the shoulder fakes, and then either take the fadeaway or fake the fade and get a lay-up. kobe's extends what jodan did in the post to the mid-range and broadens his moveset. i don't know that we've seen someone use a blend of jordan and olajuwon footwork and fakes from the foul-line and out.

i agree, kobe has wisely stolen parts of great players' games, and as i said before, it would be stupid of him not to see what worked for jordan as he lost his explosive athletic ability and implement that into his own game as the same thing happened to him. why not pattern things after the best ever? that's like knocking olajuwon for using mchale's post moves.

lebron was compared to jordan until people realized that he's a crossof magic johnson and dominique wilkins. vince carter was considered a jordan clone until people realized he didn't defend or have heart, amongst other reasons. t-mac had a unique offensive game in that he was lethal from everywhere and was very smooth, almost carefree. i don't really know who his game would be compared to, because it was so unique.

d-wade is the closest we've seen to a young jordan, but young jordan was a markedly better athlete and scarier for opponents.

[dragonyeuw]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

i think jordan's footwork was simpler. granted, he had the ability to do multiple fakes and moves, but he was more likely to give you the shoulder fakes, and then either take the fadeaway or fake the fade and get a lay-up. kobe's extends what jodan did in the post to the mid-range and broadens his moveset. i don't know that we've seen someone use a blend of jordan and olajuwon footwork and fakes from the foul-line and out.

Extending what Jordan did doesn't necessarily result in being more efficient at it, though. Jordan was the far more efficient scorer, without having to use the extra moves Kobe employs to free himself up. Again, even if Kobe has broadened the use of that footwork further out, there's still a 'deja-vu' effect.

i agree, kobe has wisely stolen parts of great players' games, and as i said before, it would be stupid of him not to see what worked for jordan as he lost his explosive athletic ability and implement that into his own game as the same thing happened to him. why not pattern things after the best ever? that's like knocking olajuwon for using mchale's post moves.

Not suggesting there's anything wrong with using past players as a base for your own game. Just saying that's the reason why Kobe hasn't been accepted as much, or perceived to be 'not quite' as good, is because many view him as an imitator, not an innovator. Jordan no doubt looked at players like Connie Hawkins, Elgin Baylor, Dr.J for his motivation, but ultimately he created a package of skills and talents that was all his own. Kobe hasn't done that, yeah he's extended his shooting range, or extended the usage of 'post-style' footwork past the foul line, but as stated above, it just doesn't differentiate him enough for people to think of him as anything but a Jordan clone. His game, minus a few variations, is simply too similar to Jordan's in most respects.

lebron was compared to jordan until people realized that he's a crossof magic johnson and dominique wilkins. vince carter was considered a jordan clone until people realized he didn't defend or have heart, amongst other reasons. t-mac had a unique offensive game in that he was lethal from everywhere and was very smooth, almost carefree. i don't really know who his game would be compared to, because it was so unique.

I never saw Lebron as a Jordan clone. His game is nothing like Jordan's. He's more a scoring,athletic version of Magic. In fact, passing was considered his greatest attribute coming into the NBA, but it has taken someone of a backseat as he has established himself as a dominant scorer.

Agreed on Tmac, he's the most natural scorer I've seen in years, moreso than Kobe even. A shame his prime was wasted on injuries.

Bold reply

[The15thunter]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

we certainly agree, jordan was more efficient in movement and in scoring when compared to kobe, no question.

the difference i see between the two is that jordan's legacy is more aerial/verticle, while kobe's has become more horizontal. not to say that jordan wasn't dominant on the ground and that kobe wasn't a beast in the sky, but the image of jordan is the jumpman, where the image of kobe is probably a fadeaway.

i agree, again, kobe plays 90% in the same style as mid-late career jordan. my problem always has been when people say that like it's a bad thing, not that it's inaccurate.

lebron doesn't fit the jordan mold, he's magic with shades of dominique and a better jumper.

to stay on topic, i looked at a few of these videos on youtube that showed some of the greatness of both guys.

jordan -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWvxijHNWB4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDQClx7bT3c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHDPBmRKtKU&feature=related

kobe -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufcKKs7IZ6Y&feature=related

[dragonyeuw]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

we certainly agree, jordan was more efficient in movement and in scoring when compared to kobe, no question.

the difference i see between the two is that jordan's legacy is more aerial/verticle, while kobe's has become more horizontal. not to say that jordan wasn't dominant on the ground and that kobe wasn't a beast in the sky, but the image of jordan is the jumpman, where the image of kobe is probably a fadeaway.

i agree, again, kobe plays 90% in the same style as mid-late career jordan. my problem always has been when people say that like it's a bad thing, not that it's inaccurate.

lebron doesn't fit the jordan mold, he's magic with shades of dominique and a better jumper.

to stay on topic, i looked at a few of these videos on youtube that showed some of the greatness of both guys.

jordan -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWvxijHNWB4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDQClx7bT3c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHDPBmRKtKU&feature=related

kobe -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufcKK...eature=related

Thanks for the vid links...

I don't believe Kobe's imitation of Jordan's game to be 'bad' at all. Merely saying that it will forever keep him in Jordan's shadow. Logically, Kobe is similar in height and size and similar athletically( though Jordan was the more explosive athlete), so it would make sense for him to see what worked for Jordan and duplicate it. Absolutely, but he has to know that people will forever be placing the 'Jordan' stigma on him because of it, which I imagine must be irritating at this point in his career.

I would agree that Jordan's ultimate legacy will be of his dominance in the air, though for me personally as I've gotten older and become more in-tuned with the nuances of the game, I've actually come to respect the 32 year old Jordan and his mastery of the fundamentals of the game.

[The15thunter]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

Thanks for the vid links...

I don't believe Kobe's imitation of Jordan's game to be 'bad' at all. Merely saying that it will forever keep him in Jordan's shadow. Logically, Kobe is similar in height and size and similar athletically( though Jordan was the more explosive athlete), so it would make sense for him to see what worked for Jordan and duplicate it. Absolutely, but he has to know that people will forever be placing the 'Jordan' stigma on him because of it, which I imagine must be irritating at this point in his career.

I would agree that Jordan's ultimate legacy will be of his dominance in the air, though for me personally as I've gotten older and become more in-tuned with the nuances of the game, I've actually come to respect the 32 year old Jordan and his mastery of the fundamentals of the game.

no doubt, jordan had a nasty fundamentals game, paired with legendary athleticism.

i think, with kobe, he has more skills on a skill-by-skill basis, as well as facing more evolutionary challenges. this isn't knocking jordan, but because everyone has been able to study jordan'sgame, it's not as easy as it was for jordan. that is to say, if we accept that kobe is repackaging what jordan did for the most part, then we are also having to accept that guys are better able to defend what jordan did. factor in kobe not being as athletic, defenders being better prepared and more athletic, then we understand this simple truth: kobe appears to be working harder to achieve the same results as mike.

if you look at all of those highlights, it appears mike isn't doing nearly as much as kobe is, specifically when guarded by one person. mike can get rid of one or even two guys with a ball or shoulder fake, and the highlight part typically comes with him dunking on or laying it up on multiple guys and catching the and-1. because defenders have had 10 years since mike retired and 25 since he first came in, individual defenders are better suited to guard those tactics now than they were then, so we see that manifesting in the defense against kobe. if he pulls the same exact move as mike and puts up a shot, the defender is in significantly better position to defend him than they were against mike. of course mike was quicker and faster, but that would only highlight my point that he had more advantages over his peers than kobe. that's why mike's stuff was more efficient, in my estimation.

kobe showing some of his signature moves and how to pull them off - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed9Nx...eature=related

kobe footwork -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCPPgOHxUog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4TPY-PHsVs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izkRO9HYZaM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qsN42C_XoU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgAlxZ1hXYI

[24]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

saying if there was no Michael Jordan is like saying If Len Bias Doesn't overdose on cocaine or if earl manigault actually got a shot in the NBA. But honestly if there was no Michael Jordan the NBA is not as popular as it is today

[dragonyeuw]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

Good points 15Hunter, though I would argue that part of Jordan being more efficient was because he generally took smarter shots. Kobe seems to like shooting with 2-3 defenders in his face, and to his credit he has incredible shot-making capability in that regard. But it also accounts for the lower percentages as well. Jordan simply took better shots.

[Landlordos7]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

15hunter brings up a good point, I never really thought of that before.



On a different note, I think most people would agree that Jordan is king of and-1 and circus layups, and Kobe is pretty much the emperor of insanely difficult jumpers.