2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Maybe a lil but you also have to remember Deron was traded to the east as well as Billups and Felton being traded between the confrences during the season. So there really wasn't extra matchups against those guys. The I would say the extra game or two matched up against Rondo, Wall, Jennings, Collinson, and Augustine would make it close to a wash with those other guys. At the PG position there really isn't a night off and with the trades that went down not much of a difference between the East and West PG's.

Being a Jennings fan, I gotta say, you really think defending Rondo, Wall, Jennings, Collison, and Augustine compares to defending CP3, Tony Parker, Monta Ellis/Steph Curry, Ty Lawson, Andre Miller, etc?

[Po Pimp]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

I wasn't putting my stock into steals. I just know Westbrook is just that much of a better defender than Rose. That he would get even more steals then he already does. Just his awareness alone on defense is better than Rose at this point.

edit: I don't like the comment about not watching games thing. I feel that's not needed. Especially for the amount of games I watch. So lets not go down that road.

I wasn't referring to you, I was moreso bringing up the guys who quote the metric stats and the Hollinger PERs (where Rose is his 7th most effective player). If I offended you, my bad. Someone made a good point earlier when they stated LeBron shot 50% from the field compared to Kobe's 45%, but no one will say LeBron is the better shooter.

And also to be fair to Westbrook and his defensive stats compared to Rose...

Westbrook may have it a little bit tougher in the West...With 3-4 games of...

Tony Parker
Deron Williams
Chris Paul
Jason Kidd/Jason Terry/Juan Barea
Ty Lawson/Raymond Felton/Billups
Monta Ellis/Steph Curry
Steve Nash
Andre Miller

So that has to factored into that equation as well. I would think...

That COULD be true, but who's to say Rose wouldn't have an easier time in the Western Conference? Afterall, he did average more points and shot a higher percentage. Westbrook played better against the Eastern Conference. I guess they should just switch teams so they can reach their maximum dominance.

Rose vs the East - 24.5, 3.9, 7.5, 44 FG%
Rose vs the West - 25.9, 4.4, 8.0, 46 FG%

Westbrook vs the East - 22.9, 5.2, 8.1, 45 FG%
Westbrook vs the West - 21.3, 4.3, 8.2, 44 FG%

[PrettyT11]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Being a Jennings fan, I gotta say, you really think defending Rondo, Wall, Jennings, Collison, and Augustine compares to defending CP3, Tony Parker, Monta Ellis/Steph Curry, Ty Lawson, Andre Miller, etc?

Neither guy is really defending Ellis so you can take him off that list. If Ellis is on that list then you have to put Wade on it. I said the extra matchup between those guys might be close to a wash. I would give the edge to those West guys because of CP3's complete game alone but Wall is as tough of a cover as anybody else on that list just off of his speed and quickness alone.

The point was at the PG position you really don't have a night off against anybody so there really is no point in trying to compare one extra game against this guy or that guy. A couple of games out of 82 against a better guy isn't going to throw your defensive metrics out of wack enough to make any real difference.

[Dice]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

I don't have a problem if someone says Westbrook is better or more active on that end but watching them this year I just don't see how anybody could say he is leaps and bounds better defender or 10 times better defender than Rose. That is making it seem like you are putting Westbrook on an All NBA defensive level which he isn't. Rose has done a damn good job defensively this year and the numbers back that up. I'm not trying to put him on the all defensive team or anything like that but he isn't some sub par defender like some are trying to make him out to be.

If you said Westbrook was leaps and bounds better or 10 times better on defense than Nash or Calderon cool but there is no way anybody can watch these two teams this year and say he is on a whole different level defensively than Rose.

Agree with this.

Now you won't get an argument from me about Westbrook being a better defender than Rose BUT let's not make it like it's some sort of mis-match. We're not comparing Rondo and Steve Nash defenses here.

Rose's defense is going to improve as he progresses. Even to a point where I see him being as good(or maybe better) than Westbrook on the defensive end.

And people forget, Westbrook was blessed with the opportunity to play under Ben Howland at UCLA. A coach that's known for implementing and teaching aggressive man-to-man defense. Then, when Westbrook got to the league he got to play under Scott Brooks, who prioritizes defense as well.

As for Rose, this is his first year playing under a strong defensive coach in Tom Thibodeau. We'll see what happens down the road when we make this comparison again in the next couple of years.

[jeebs9]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

^^ I totally agree with that post. ^^ I was going to post the Ben Howland thing before. But didn't think anyone would even know who is lol jk. I think Rose has the tools to be even a better defensive point guard than Westbrook. But he isn't right now. I always feel my version of an Elite point guard defender is not the guy who can only shut down his match or ball denial. But is that pest on the floor big men and other players have to watch out for. because they will pick your pocket. Thats why I think Rondo,CP3 and Westbrook are those kind of guys.

[Dice]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

^^ I totally agree with that post. ^^ I was going to post the Ben Howland thing before. But didn't think anyone would even know who is lol jk. I think Rose has the tools to be even a better defensive point guard than Westbrook. But he isn't right now. I always feel my version of an Elite point guard defender is not the guy who can only shut down his match or ball denial. But is that pest on the floor big men and other players have to watch out for. because they will pick your pocket. Thats why I think Rondo,CP3 and Westbrook are those kind of guys.

I remember watching that team for most of 2008 and had them pegged to win the National Championship that year. Watching that team and listening to the color commentary, almost everybody praised Howland for how his team defends. Maybe that's why his team has gone to the Final Four 3 straight years.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Neither guy is really defending Ellis so you can take him off that list. If Ellis is on that list then you have to put Wade on it. I said the extra matchup between those guys might be close to a wash. I would give the edge to those West guys because of CP3's complete game alone but Wall is as tough of a cover as anybody else on that list just off of his speed and quickness alone.

The point was at the PG position you really don't have a night off against anybody so there really is no point in trying to compare one extra game against this guy or that guy. A couple of games out of 82 against a better guy isn't going to throw your defensive metrics out of wack enough to make any real difference.

For what it's worth, I'm working on a spread sheet of all of Rose and Westbrook's games against the good PGs (CP3, DWill, Nash, Billups, etc.) Doesn't look like Rose played very well in many of these games as far as FG% goes. I finished Rose's half but I'm like halfway done with Westbrook's games. Westbrook really didn't play that great against the top PGs either but it looks like he was better for the most part.

[PrettyT11]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

It could be something to look at. I remember a recent part of the year though when Rose played against a very tough row of them in a short period of time and he just dominated them.

[ezekiel55]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Yeah, after the allstar break Rose played well if not better than most of his counterparts.

[cubsball899]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

forget the spreadsheet, basketball isn't played in microsoft excel. find me videos of all the times Rose beats 4 or 5 defenders vs how many times westbrook beats 4-5 defenders.

[Altimus]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Yeah, after the allstar break Rose played well if not better than most of his counterparts.

His shooting % did take a hit though.

[Pared]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

When did this become a "who is better" thread b/w Rose and Westbrook?

Westbrook isn't even in the MVP discussion. He was brought up when discussing defense, was he not?

[PrettyT11]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

It was this run they was talking about 2/9 against Deron Bulls won and Rose had 29 and 7 While Deron had 11 points on 5 of 13 with 12 assists
Next game on 2/12 against CP3 Bulls won with Rose having 23 and 6 CP3 had 15 points on 3 of 10 shooting with 6 assists
2/17 against Parker Bulls won with Rose having 42 and 8 while Parker had 26 and 4
3/17 against Deron Bulls won with Rose having 21 and 4 on a poor shooting night while Deron had 5 points on 1 for 12 shooting with 11 assists
4/5 against Nash Bulls won with Rose having 19 and 4 with Nash having 6 points on 3 of 8 shooting with 16 assists
4/7 against Rondo Bulls won with Rose having 30 and 8 with Rondo having 7 points on 3 of 10 shooting with 6 assists
4/12 against Billups Bulls won with Rose having 26 and 3 with Billups having 10 points on 4 of 10 shooting with 8 assists

He had the pretty clear advantage in all of those games and they won them all. Parker was the only one of those guys to have a good offensive night against Rose but he got hit with 42 points in return. The rest of those guys just had flat out bad shooting nights against Rose. This doesn't include the other big games during that time against the other guys mentioned earlier. That is pretty damn impressive.

[PrettyT11]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

When did this become a "who is better" thread b/w Rose and Westbrook?

Westbrook isn't even in the MVP discussion. He was brought up when discussing defense, was he not?

No he was brought a few times throughout this thread as being just as good if not better than Rose. This most recent part he was brought up as being just as good or not really any difference between the two of them.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

When did this become a "who is better" thread b/w Rose and Westbrook?

Westbrook isn't even in the MVP discussion. He was brought up when discussing defense, was he not?

Yeah I don't think it's fair to Rose to discuss who the better player is at this point, but it is fair to look ahead to the near future.

But Westbrook is right there.

I don't like doing this but if you put Westbrook on Chicago I don't think they "look" as contenderish as they do with Rose.

If you put Rose on OKC I think they look just as good as they do with Westbrook.

But Westbrook will soon show that he will be neck and neck with Rose over their careers IMO.