The worst pick up players.

[wwharton]

Re: The worst pick up players.

I'm gonna hand check you till you hate my guts.

Common sense tells you to stop jumping everytime he pump fakes .

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

I think there's a disconnect between the situation I'm picturing and the situation you're picturing. Pump fakes, contact, and the insinuating foul call are totally normal and a part of the game. If a person drives hard to the bucket and I'm planning on them rising to the rim, only they pump fake, sending me airborne into their space, at which point they shoot, draw heavy contact, and call a foul, I have no issues. If someone's rushing off a screen to pop from 15, realizes I'm leaving my feet, and decides to pump-fake instead of shooting because I'm flailing my body wildly toward them, again absorbing a foul, still not an issue.

On the contrary, as you suggested a few posts after the one I quoted, I am in fact talking about people who take it to the extreme. I have literally played against a player whose game plan on offense at many times was to draw pump-fake fouls. There was nothing circumstantial about it. He'd go to a spot, pump-fake and specifically make a point to lean into the contact and draw a foul, often whether I was airborne or not, bailing out on attempting to finish the jump shot in the process. It wasn't a matter of out-of-control me jumping into his body. It was more a matter of jumping-straight-up-me being sought out by a ultra-leaning offensive player looking for contact from 15 feet.

To be clear, maybe his play would make sense in a real game, were he to be rewarded with two free throws. But it doesn't add up in streetball, just how intentionally fouling in the backcourt might make sense in real life when trailing near the end of a game, but serves absolutely no purpose on the street.

Also, for the sake of my sports forum pick-up basketball street cred, I want to be sure to clarify I don't bite on all pump fakes (or anything close to it). I bite on a normal defender's amount of pump fakes. Everyone does. Anyone who claims to never jump to contest a shot or bite on a pump fake is not being truthful.

I agree with the thoughts on the extreme situations, but I also think there are places for it that aren't extreme. You described flailing in the air, but I also have a problem with defenders that just try to block every single shot. You don't have to be jumping out of control for that situation. If I have enough space to get my shot off and you jump to block it, your momentum will bring you even slightly forward. Most of the time, with a live dribble I'd just drive around this or do something else to avoid it. But if this is your standard defensive tactic, your bad defense will be rewarded by taking away a strength to my game... simply bc street code says don't draw the foul. In that case, I'll pump fake and take the hit. It'll only happen a few times if you keep doing the same thing. I don't think the pump faker (me in this case) is in the wrong more than the guy that continues playing bad defense to initiate the contact.

You don't get the foul shots, but the intent is to get you to play some semblance of real defense rather than taking advantage of rules that aren't enforced in street ball.

And honestly, I can't say I NEVER jump but it's pretty close to never. Jumping is a horrible way to defend a jump shot. Mirror the ball with your hand, go up as it goes up. Then only a pretty convincing pump fake should get you off the ground. Meanwhile, your blocks may go down a lot but most people can't make shots consistently when defended properly anyway.

Also, I agree with all you said about taking charges.

[VDusen04]

Re: The worst pick up players.

For what it's worth, what you're describing regarding the pump fake doesn't seem to be an issue to me. The guy I was referring to was truly from another planet. He's not as similar to you as you're thinking.

And honestly, I can't say I NEVER jump but it's pretty close to never. Jumping is a horrible way to defend a jump shot. Mirror the ball with your hand, go up as it goes up. Then only a pretty convincing pump fake should get you off the ground. Meanwhile, your blocks may go down a lot but most people can't make shots consistently when defended properly anyway.

This might be just a matter of mis-communication as well. I'm not saying I am a guy always trying to time major blocks and leaping at a moment's notice. You said you go up as the shot goes up. For 99% of basketball situations, that's what I'm referring. If someone's guarding me, it is in their best interest to actively try to raise up and contest my jumpshot. For if they remain grounded as I am releasing my shot, my percentage will greatly increase. It doesn't mean people should be flying toward me. It means when I'm elevating to release, they should be rising to contest just as well.

Sometimes it's the right move to remain grounded. More times than not, as you said, we're rising to contest:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/i7ap6V__smI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

As you mentioned, outside of the routine contest, we all still find ourselves victims to other pump fakes at some point or another. I mean, if I'm chasing someone down on a fast break and my only chance is to meet them at the rim on the run, I'm not going to go into close-out mode where I just try to approach them from behind with my hand in their face without leaving the ground. Instead, I'm leaping and meeting. As such, if they're savvy enough (or accidentally scared enough), a pump fake is going to get me, as it would anyone. Essentially, there's always going to be situations where the right play is to jump, only you may be bested by someone who remains one step ahead.

At times, we're all going to be in a situation where we're forced to play catch up, which could ultimately lead to this:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/rJEbbS1wY0Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[kingkilla56]

Re: The worst pick up players.

I hate the guy that you take to the gym to play ball and when guys on the court over invite you guys to a game, your friend bows out because he is either too timid or afraid to reveal that he's not very good. I mean comon broski, we came to play ball. Did you think it would be one on one the whole time?

[wwharton]

Re: The worst pick up players.

VDusen, I didn't want to make a long reply so I didn't quote you...

Yeah, I was speaking only on jump shots... unless I'm dead tired or completely out of it I don't jump. There is a rare occasion when I've noticed a pattern in your moves and know I can get my hand on the ball as you're going up, but otherwise I stay on my feet. Your shot may be so nice that a hand in the face or just mirroring the ball isn't going to be much of a distraction but those players are few and far between in pick up ball. And either way, the way to guard that guy is crowd him to force the drive and have help behind you ready to slide and recover (I know, also rare in pick up ball).

Basically, outside of the paint, it's rare that I would try to block someone's shot unless I was coming from weak side help so there's no real reason to jump on a jump shooter. Maybe if they're shooting an obvious fall away but the chances of blocking that are pretty slim too.

[cavsfan2]

Re: The worst pick up players.

the guy who makes a really bad play and then goes "Shoot I havent played basketball in like 3 months"
Give me a break. I saw him there the week before LOL

[VDusen04]

Re: The worst pick up players.

VDusen, I didn't want to make a long reply so I didn't quote you...

Yeah, I was speaking only on jump shots... unless I'm dead tired or completely out of it I don't jump. There is a rare occasion when I've noticed a pattern in your moves and know I can get my hand on the ball as you're going up, but otherwise I stay on my feet. Your shot may be so nice that a hand in the face or just mirroring the ball isn't going to be much of a distraction but those players are few and far between in pick up ball. And either way, the way to guard that guy is crowd him to force the drive and have help behind you ready to slide and recover (I know, also rare in pick up ball).

Basically, outside of the paint, it's rare that I would try to block someone's shot unless I was coming from weak side help so there's no real reason to jump on a jump shooter. Maybe if they're shooting an obvious fall away but the chances of blocking that are pretty slim too.

Hm, fair enough. Different strokes. The breakdown of why I'd ever leave my feet to contest a jumpshot (in the correct situation): 97% to make the shooter's life more difficult, 3% hoping to get a block.

As mentioned before, I have found through the years when the tables are turned, a defender rising with me is much more difficult to shoot accurately over than someone who merely has their hand up standing flat-footed. As such, I implement that when I'm on the other side of the ball playing defense - but in Battier fashion (as shown at the 24 sec. mark of the video I posted, for example). No mega jump. Just rising with the shot and leaving one's feet to legitimately contest. As a bonus, sometimes my contest will result in me getting a piece of the ball, thus altering the shot.

the guy who makes a really bad play and then goes "Shoot I havent played basketball in like 3 months"
Give me a break. I saw him there the week before LOL

Ha, yep, good stuff. That was one of the characters on the "11 People You Always See in Street Ball" video. I use the, "It's just this war . . ." line from time to time when I do something poorly.

Edit: Figured it was worth a re-post -

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fgZ-KQKrzZ0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[wwharton]

Re: The worst pick up players.

Hm, fair enough. Different strokes. The breakdown of why I'd ever leave my feet to contest a jumpshot (in the correct situation): 97% to make the shooter's life more difficult, 3% hoping to get a block.

As mentioned before, I have found through the years when the tables are turned, a defender rising with me is much more difficult to shoot accurately over than someone who merely has their hand up standing flat-footed. As such, I implement that when I'm on the other side of the ball playing defense - but in Battier fashion (as shown at the 24 sec. mark of the video I posted, for example). No mega jump. Just rising with the shot and leaving one's feet to legitimately contest. As a bonus, sometimes my contest will result in me getting a piece of the ball, thus altering the shot.


Ha, yep, good stuff. That was one of the characters on the "11 People You Always See in Street Ball" video. I use the, "It's just this war . . ." line from time to time when I do something poorly.

Edit: Figured it was worth a re-post -

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fgZ-KQKrzZ0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It definitely makes it harder on the shooter, but that's also why I'll pump fake to get the foul occasionally. It's all a game of chess, and some street ball unwritten rules unfairly handcuff players... imo, this is one of them.

100% of the time you jump, you take yourself out of position to play D against a pump fake. That's why you should never jump. It's easier said than done, but I find that generally a hand in the face or mirroring the ball isn't enough of a drop off from jumping to sacrifice good defensive position if it's a pump fake. Like I said, in pick up ball you rarely find a guy with a shot so good that this defense won't be enough of a distraction (not saying that there aren't guys that will make the shot occasionally but the success rate between this and jumping but not blocking isn't much different when considering the alternative).

[VDusen04]

Re: The worst pick up players.

It definitely makes it harder on the shooter, but that's also why I'll pump fake to get the foul occasionally. It's all a game of chess, and some street ball unwritten rules unfairly handcuff players... imo, this is one of them.

100% of the time you jump, you take yourself out of position to play D against a pump fake. That's why you should never jump. It's easier said than done, but I find that generally a hand in the face or mirroring the ball isn't enough of a drop off from jumping to sacrifice good defensive position if it's a pump fake. Like I said, in pick up ball you rarely find a guy with a shot so good that this defense won't be enough of a distraction (not saying that there aren't guys that will make the shot occasionally but the success rate between this and jumping but not blocking isn't much different when considering the alternative).

My feeling is a shooter has a point of no return, where a pump fake is no longer a viable option. At those times, contesting is the right way to go, even if that includes leaving one's feet. So I'd disagree with the 100% of the time claim. Sometimes jumping is putting oneself into the play. Basically, there's a time and a place.

In truth, I feel as though there's an understatement on behalf of all shooters. I don't think it takes a skilled marksman to differentiate between being defended by someone who remains grounded no matter what and being guarded by someone who has the potential to rise and contest. If a defender were able to always glue himself to my hip prior to my rising for a jumpshot, sure, maybe staying grounded and merely putting a hand up will be beneficial enough. However, if there's any sort of separation between me and my defender (as there should be), the only way the defense could negatively affect my shot would be to bring about the idea that they may be able to alter what I'm trying to do. Someone actively rising after I've passed my pump-fake-point-of-no-return can do that. Somebody not willing to commit to my shooting act at any given point is going to allow me to maximize my abilities (however good or bad they may be).

I really believe this might have to be an agree-to-disagree situation. There's a lot of variables that come into play when defending a jump shot and maybe I'm focusing on one type of jump shot situation and you're focusing on another. Or maybe we really just flat out have different opinions and that's all there is to it. I feel there's a number of different beneficial ways to defend a shooter, some include staying grounded, some include leaving one's feet.

[wwharton]

Re: The worst pick up players.

My feeling is a shooter has a point of no return, where a pump fake is no longer a viable option. At those times, contesting is the right way to go, even if that includes leaving one's feet. So I'd disagree with the 100% of the time claim. Sometimes jumping is putting oneself into the play. Basically, there's a time and a place.

In truth, I feel as though there's an understatement on behalf of all shooters. I don't think it takes a skilled marksman to differentiate between being defended by someone who remains grounded no matter what and being guarded by someone who has the potential to rise and contest.

I really believe this might have to be an agree-to-disagree situation. There's a lot of variables that come into play when defending a jump shot and maybe I'm focusing on one type of jump shot situation and you're focusing on another. Or maybe we really just flat out have different opinions and that's all there is to it.

It's all good, it's a good discussion (imo). As a defender you really can't determine the point of no return without heavy analysis of the shooter. There are many different extremes of a pump fake, and only the shooter knows how exaggerated his fake's going to be at that point. If you're not in good defensive position, then jumping "puts you in the play" and would be the right decision if you can trust the help behind you. But if you're in good defensive position (where you can get a hand in the face or at ball level depending on the height of the jump) it would take a special shooter to consistently make that shot even more than a fraction more than someone jumping (if we eliminate the jumps that can result in a block). The risk/reward just isn't there.

I feel like you're defending how you play more than the concept though. I'm not questioning you... I can tell you know the game. The strategy you're describing works for lots of people in pick up ball, partially bc of the discussion here about pump faking and taking the foul, and also just bc of the natural patterns of pick up players. Not a knock on you... just saying what the ideal defensive play would be in that situation, as the pick up style of defense would be exploited frequently by a team of guys that played higher level organized ball.

[The 24th Letter]

What about the guy who yells "SHORT!" on every shot? Dude, if every shot feels short, get some extension on your shot lol

[Marino]

What about the guy who yells "SHORT!" on every shot? Dude, if every shot feels short, get some extension on your shot lol

Ive noticed that ive made most of my shots when a guy yells out short. I always say...nope as I run back down court.

[The 24th Letter]

Haha, I like when some lone yells "off" when I shoot....I usually hell "on" and run down court...

[Nathan_OS]

I KNOW this happens to a lot of you guys.



The guy that YELLS pick , but doesn't even say which side.

[cubsball899]

Re: The worst pick up players.

i usually don't have a problem with anybody yelling anything about a shot. communication is vital, maybe you're not in position for the rebound but you see where its going? i've never come across anyone who yells short every time though lol.

[VDusen04]

Re: The worst pick up players.

I feel like you're defending how you play more than the concept though. I'm not questioning you... I can tell you know the game. The strategy you're describing works for lots of people in pick up ball, partially bc of the discussion here about pump faking and taking the foul, and also just bc of the natural patterns of pick up players. Not a knock on you... just saying what the ideal defensive play would be in that situation, as the pick up style of defense would be exploited frequently by a team of guys that played higher level organized ball.

Yeah, we're still at different levels here in terms of strategy. You say offensive players will exploit players who jump and I'm saying offensive players will exploit players who refuse to jump. If I had to be real, I'd say we're both on the right track and there's just a time and a place for each. And to be clear, the extent of my basketball experience is not the playground and my strategies and ideas are not based off of how effective they may be against the lowest common denominator.

Before I let this go, I just have to verify this though: you are saying defenders should never jump to contest jumpshots? I don't want to be that guy but I have to ask, how do you explain the hundreds of players every night in every televised form of basketball who jump to contest shots nearly every possession down the floor? For starters, what's your take on the Battier video I posted? Again, I'm not saying whatever he does must be right, but what are your thoughts? On some plays, he's all up in a shooters face before they rise and he doesn't need to jump. On other occasions, against Rudy Gay and Tayshaun, he's clearly leaving his feet to contest.

Clips like that, and any basketball game on any level ever played ever, is why I think this is a mis-understanding between us. I said this earlier but I think it's worth re-iterating: when I say "jump" I'm most often not talking about an all-out, all bets are off, mega-leap where I'm trying to destroy a shot. Many times it features me barely rising off the floor. But it's still a jump as opposed to a grounded contest. This most often occurs as a person is shooting, not in anticipation of their shot.