The worst pick up players.

[wwharton]

Re: The worst pick up players.

In regards to your friend, I bet we all could relate that to someone we know. I know someone exactly like you described - he has this fear that someone, somewhere, is going to block his layup every play if he doesn't double clutch. And I have other acquaintances who knowingly double clutch just because I get the feeling they want their shot to look tight.

This is going to sound. . .funny. . .having me say this about myself, but in a couple of different regions, I've been accused of driving too hard at certain times. One of the more annoying phrases I hear a thousand times is something like, "Man, if this a real game I'd be drawing charges on you left and right." My feeling is, "Yeah, but it's not, you won't, and you didn't." Last year, I had a college player take a charge on me in a random open gym. I did the ol' "Whhhat? You. . .draw charges in streetball?" and another guy turned and reasoned, "Well, you do go to the rack kind of hard." What's that supposed to mean? Am I supposed to restrict myself from going to the rim too much (and when I do attack, maybe do it at half speed) because hypothetically someone might be there ready to take a charge if this were a real game?

And to your final paragraph, I've definitely been a part of that situation. It's the dreaded "We've been playing for two hours and we're all tired and therefore now lazy" maneuver. For years, in open gyms or at the courts, it's the tell-tale sign that the night is over. It seems we always push ourselves one game past what we should. And then that last game ends up being full of the antics you mentioned and often we recognize this and do not finish. Though, sometimes we recognize it, decide to restart and run a quick, hard one to seven.

I'd never take a charge in a pick up game, bc it's not worth getting run over or the bickering after. But if you abuse the ability to drive hard without someone taking one then what's wrong with someone stepping in to stop you legally? It sounds like you have an unstoppable move (get to the rim or get fouled) if no one takes a charge so I don't see what's wrong with it.

[VDusen04]

Re: The worst pick up players.

I'd never take a charge in a pick up game, bc it's not worth getting run over or the bickering after. But if you abuse the ability to drive hard without someone taking one then what's wrong with someone stepping in to stop you legally? It sounds like you have an unstoppable move (get to the rim or get fouled) if no one takes a charge so I don't see what's wrong with it.

Yeah, I could meet you halfway on that one. If there was one "streetball" location where a charge wouldn't be the worst thing ever, I guess it'd be on a hardwood floor. It's just funny because someone attempting to take a charge happens about once a year in street basketball and it totally takes me off guard. There's certain established streetball parameters we all seem to become accustomed to, and we take action accordingly.

For instance, I think it's fair to say there's a lot more clutching, grabbing, bodying and hacking to be expected in streetball (without a foul being warranted). So people tend to play through the contact and either learn how to finish strong, or fail. Things are a little thrown out of whack when someone begins calling every ticky tack foul, even if they'd be whistled in a real game. It might be a stretch, but it's sort of the same with the charge thing. I've acclimated myself to playing this specific type of basketball and it's just weird when that 1 in 365 days moment comes where someone undercuts me then stands up quickly to walk the other way saying "charge" under their breath.

I maintain that regardless of whether I am or am not blowing past my man on pavement, charges should be thrown out. I made a living as a defender who drew charges in high school, but on the concrete, I find such a strategy to be much too dangerous and risky. It's nearly as bad as folks who chase me down on a fast break, appearing as if they're going to leap and attempt to block my dunk, only to remain grounded and possibly ducking instead, thus creating the "accidental submarine". And no, I'm not baller enough to spread eagle and Jordan myself over them. My feet always clip.

[wwharton]

Re: The worst pick up players.

Yeah, I could meet you halfway on that one. If there was one "streetball" location where a charge wouldn't be the worst thing ever, I guess it'd be on a hardwood floor. It's just funny because someone attempting to take a charge happens about once a year in street basketball and it totally takes me off guard. There's certain established streetball parameters we all seem to become accustomed to, and we take action accordingly.

For instance, I think it's fair to say there's a lot more clutching, grabbing, bodying and hacking to be expected in streetball (without a foul being warranted). So people tend to play through the contact and either learn how to finish strong, or fail. Things are a little thrown out of whack when someone begins calling every ticky tack foul, even if they'd be whistled in a real game. It might be a stretch, but it's sort of the same with the charge thing. I've acclimated myself to playing this specific type of basketball and it's just weird when that 1 in 365 days moment comes where someone undercuts me then stands up quickly to walk the other way saying "charge" under their breath.

I maintain that regardless of whether I am or am not blowing past my man on pavement, charges should be thrown out. I made a living as a defender who drew charges in high school, but on the concrete, I find such a strategy to be much too dangerous and risky. It's nearly as bad as folks who chase me down on a fast break, appearing as if they're going to leap and attempt to block my dunk, only to remain grounded and possibly ducking instead, thus creating the "accidental submarine". And no, I'm not baller enough to spread eagle and Jordan myself over them. My feet always clip.

That's the thing though. Both of us have given our reasons for not wanting to take a charge but the only reason for someone else not to is the unwritten rule (which I agree with btw). But I also feel like using an offensive move that can only be properly defended by taking a charge is also going against the unwritten rules of streetball. It may depend on what fouls you'd be willing to let go, otherwise I'd have no problem with someone taking a charge to get the point across that maybe you shouldn't be going in that hard every time. Guess it depends on what you consider a ticky tack foul but what I envision of someone driving like you're talking about, I'm thinking it'll take a pretty significant foul to properly defend it without taking a charge.

Basically you're saying let me score or foul me.

[jfsolo]

Re: The worst pick up players.

The bad thing about getting a charge in pick up ball is that is there will usually be a 15 minute argument to get the call. The offensive player will almost never admit that the defender beat him to the spot and was set.

Sometimes you have to take charges on players though even in pick up ball, otherwise they're unstoppable. If you're playing in game where 90% of the players are under 6" 3" and you've got a Tyreke Evans type just getting to rim at will, then something has to be done or the game becomes pointless or turns into a hack fest.

Besides being too old to take the concrete anymore, that one of the reasons I don't play outdoors anymore, taking a charge isn't real an option, so a major defensive strategy is out the window.

[st0rmb11]

Re: The worst pick up players.

The bad thing about getting a charge in pick up ball is that is there will usually be a 15 minute argument to get the call. The offensive player will almost never admit that the defender beat him to the spot and was set.

agreed. there are enough "arguments" about fouls in pick up games, anyway. I honestly don't think I've ever seen a charge CALLED in a pick up game. I have a friend who will often try to take them, but usually he sets up SO long before the person gets there, that the driver will side step him or avoid the contact as he jumps.
I'm of the belief that taking a charge is generally a waste of time in a game with no refs. I have had several opportunities to take charges on fast breaks in pick up games (I'm usually the "point guard", so as I was taught in high school, I always begin to get back when a shot goes up by my team). Generally, I'll either try to step to the guy coming at me and make him either try to go around me or "startle" him into picking up his dribble. or, if I don't go at him, I'll try to strip him as he goes for the layup or dunk. I've learned not to go for the contest because one of 2 things is going to happen. 1.) you're going to get baptized by a dunker or 2.) the guy is going to miss the layup, and often complain that you fouled him.


this whole "getting back on D" thing makes me remember another thing that bugs me. as I said, I'm usually one of the first people back on D, unless I've driven in or have cut through. I hate it when a 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 fast break for the other team turns into a 3 or 4 on 1 fast break with multiple passes and rebounds, because my teammates want to take their time getting back down the floor. that's one of the 2 or 3 things that will really piss me off in a pick up game.

the other 2 are: guys that try to iso and shoot EVERY time they get the ball - and the other is, jumping into a game with 2 or 3 guys on your team that have always played together and refuse to pass to anyone other than themselves.

[VDusen04]

Re: The worst pick up players.

That's the thing though. Both of us have given our reasons for not wanting to take a charge but the only reason for someone else not to is the unwritten rule (which I agree with btw). But I also feel like using an offensive move that can only be properly defended by taking a charge is also going against the unwritten rules of streetball. It may depend on what fouls you'd be willing to let go, otherwise I'd have no problem with someone taking a charge to get the point across that maybe you shouldn't be going in that hard every time. Guess it depends on what you consider a ticky tack foul but what I envision of someone driving like you're talking about, I'm thinking it'll take a pretty significant foul to properly defend it without taking a charge.

Basically you're saying let me score or foul me.

I might have to disagree with the bolded. I'm not sure there's any offensive move that can only be properly defended by taking a charge. It's a flattering thought to consider I can't be stopped, but it's obviously so far from the truth. The charge thing is actually mostly a non-issue because it happens, literally, maybe once a year.

I actually have a bigger problem with the "just grab him and wrap him up when he drives" guys. Again, they tend to pull the "what else are we supposed to do?" line. And to that I say, "Why not play real defense?" Why can the man guarding me not put a little more effort into things? Why can't help defense react early and dig? Why can't someone make a play on the ball during a dribble drive? Why can't someone cut me off before I get into the paint and force me to share the ball? I respect those giving full effort of course, but oftentimes the grabbers and huggers are not providing that effort.

And yeah, we could say, "Well that's where the charge comes into play." I just think there's a ton of things defensively that could happen outside of a charge that could prevent me from scoring. The concept of dialing back my ability seems so wrong from a basketball perspective. It feels like people are suggesting I stop driving so much because they don't like their inability to stop me from driving so much.

So when I'm coming into the paint at full speed and I'm about to take off, is a defender's only choice to draw a charge, let me score, or commit a foul? Maybe. I feel like making a play on the ball or cutting me off early could be an option. And I mean, a lot of other defensive breakdowns had to have occurred for it to get to this point, so sometimes as a defender, you're in a rough spot because things went wrong down the line. In truth, I could do without the street charges, but I think I've always handled them well for the most part. I mean, it is technically a legal means of playing basketball and I can respect that. I usually laugh them off, admittingly in a kind of condescending manner. I won't be legitimately happy about committing a charge, but I'll recognize it.

As I said, I guess my bigger fish to fry are those who attempt to stop me illegally. At that point, it's a defender's own fault if his only recourse is to take me down. And I don't think it's fair to me that I somehow deserve to be grabbed, hugged or thrown about because a defense cannot make proper adjustments.

I guess it goes without saying that I'm not a fan of "message basketball". If the only reason someone's fouling me or taking a charge is to send a message, then they're sending the wrong message. All that means is I'm coming back even harder the next time. If a defense doesn't want to put in the work, they're going to end up with numerous situations where I'm coming deep into the paint at full speed. Again, I'm not huge (6'3'' 170) but I'm okay with implementing the airborne truck stick upon a stationary defender whose planned course of action was to take me out or foul me.

I sound like a total jerk.

[Nathan_OS]

Re: The worst pick up players.

Worst pickup Player. The guy that thinks he could shoot.

[pw_1016]

Re: The worst pick up players.

I hate playing with guys that fake like 6 times as if they are going to pass you the ball, then by the time, they pass it the defense figures its going to you and then they step in front of it for an easy fast break, but the guy gets mad at you like he didnt see you sitting there wide open over an hour ago..smh

[VDusen04]

Re: The worst pick up players.

I hate playing with guys that fake like 6 times as if they are going to pass you the ball, then by the time, they pass it the defense figures its going to you and then they step in front of it for an easy fast break, but the guy gets mad at you like he didnt see you sitting there wide open over an hour ago..smh

Haha, true. I've been there too. I'm not a fan of someone setting me a real solid down screen, and being wide open when I pop out, only to have my teammate look me off and pass to a covered teammate standing still. And it's not like I think he hates me. Rather, I get this feeling that my teammate's thinking, "No, I can't pass to the open man on the move, that's exactly what they'd expect me to do." I'm serious.

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[wwharton]

Re: The worst pick up players.

I might have to disagree with the bolded. I'm not sure there's any offensive move that can only be properly defended by taking a charge. It's a flattering thought to consider I can't be stopped, but it's obviously so far from the truth. The charge thing is actually mostly a non-issue because it happens, literally, maybe once a year.

I actually have a bigger problem with the "just grab him and wrap him up when he drives" guys. Again, they tend to pull the "what else are we supposed to do?" line. And to that I say, "Why not play real defense?" Why can the man guarding me not put a little more effort into things? Why can't help defense react early and dig? Why can't someone make a play on the ball during a dribble drive? Why can't someone cut me off before I get into the paint and force me to share the ball? I respect those giving full effort of course, but oftentimes the grabbers and huggers are not providing that effort.

And yeah, we could say, "Well that's where the charge comes into play." I just think there's a ton of things defensively that could happen outside of a charge that could prevent me from scoring. The concept of dialing back my ability seems so wrong from a basketball perspective. It feels like people are suggesting I stop driving so much because they don't like their inability to stop me from driving so much.

So when I'm coming into the paint at full speed and I'm about to take off, is a defender's only choice to draw a charge, let me score, or commit a foul? Maybe. I feel like making a play on the ball or cutting me off early could be an option. And I mean, a lot of other defensive breakdowns had to have occurred for it to get to this point, so sometimes as a defender, you're in a rough spot because things went wrong down the line. In truth, I could do without the street charges, but I think I've always handled them well for the most part. I mean, it is technically a legal means of playing basketball and I can respect that. I usually laugh them off, admittingly in a kind of condescending manner. I won't be legitimately happy about committing a charge, but I'll recognize it.

As I said, I guess my bigger fish to fry are those who attempt to stop me illegally. At that point, it's a defender's own fault if his only recourse is to take me down. And I don't think it's fair to me that I somehow deserve to be grabbed, hugged or thrown about because a defense cannot make proper adjustments.

I guess it goes without saying that I'm not a fan of "message basketball". If the only reason someone's fouling me or taking a charge is to send a message, then they're sending the wrong message. All that means is I'm coming back even harder the next time. If a defense doesn't want to put in the work, they're going to end up with numerous situations where I'm coming deep into the paint at full speed. Again, I'm not huge (6'3'' 170) but I'm okay with implementing the airborne truck stick upon a stationary defender whose planned course of action was to take me out or foul me.

I sound like a total jerk.

lol, nah not a jerk. I'm just trying to get you to see things from a different perspective. For example (and I haven't seen HOW you drive so I'm only guessing here), most of the examples you've given on how you could be stopped come before the point of trying to take a charge and therefore don't come into play for the scenario in question. From your perspective, the play has reached a point where either you score or get fouled (or get to the rim and miss but that's on you). What I'm saying is 10 times out of 10, I wouldn't step in and take a charge in that situation either. BUT, if it seems like you're just running through people bc you know nobody takes charges in street ball, I don't see the problem with someone deciding to take one. It's not about sending a message either. It's like you found a glitch in a videogame and are exploiting it... drive right at the guy bc you know he'll get out of the way or foul you.

And I have absolutely no problem with that style of play either. I just don't think you should have a problem with someone taking a charge if that is how you play.

[Nathan_OS]

Re: The worst pick up players.

the guy who runs around the whole court, like hes on redbull. Take a break there buddy..


Also the guy who passes the ball too weak when theres a guy already out on the break.

[clipperfan811]

Re: The worst pick up players.

I might have to disagree with the bolded. I'm not sure there's any offensive move that can only be properly defended by taking a charge. It's a flattering thought to consider I can't be stopped, but it's obviously so far from the truth. The charge thing is actually mostly a non-issue because it happens, literally, maybe once a year.

I actually have a bigger problem with the "just grab him and wrap him up when he drives" guys. Again, they tend to pull the "what else are we supposed to do?" line. And to that I say, "Why not play real defense?" Why can the man guarding me not put a little more effort into things? Why can't help defense react early and dig? Why can't someone make a play on the ball during a dribble drive? Why can't someone cut me off before I get into the paint and force me to share the ball? I respect those giving full effort of course, but oftentimes the grabbers and huggers are not providing that effort.

And yeah, we could say, "Well that's where the charge comes into play." I just think there's a ton of things defensively that could happen outside of a charge that could prevent me from scoring. The concept of dialing back my ability seems so wrong from a basketball perspective. It feels like people are suggesting I stop driving so much because they don't like their inability to stop me from driving so much.

So when I'm coming into the paint at full speed and I'm about to take off, is a defender's only choice to draw a charge, let me score, or commit a foul? Maybe. I feel like making a play on the ball or cutting me off early could be an option. And I mean, a lot of other defensive breakdowns had to have occurred for it to get to this point, so sometimes as a defender, you're in a rough spot because things went wrong down the line. In truth, I could do without the street charges, but I think I've always handled them well for the most part. I mean, it is technically a legal means of playing basketball and I can respect that. I usually laugh them off, admittingly in a kind of condescending manner. I won't be legitimately happy about committing a charge, but I'll recognize it.

As I said, I guess my bigger fish to fry are those who attempt to stop me illegally. At that point, it's a defender's own fault if his only recourse is to take me down. And I don't think it's fair to me that I somehow deserve to be grabbed, hugged or thrown about because a defense cannot make proper adjustments.

I guess it goes without saying that I'm not a fan of "message basketball". If the only reason someone's fouling me or taking a charge is to send a message, then they're sending the wrong message. All that means is I'm coming back even harder the next time. If a defense doesn't want to put in the work, they're going to end up with numerous situations where I'm coming deep into the paint at full speed. Again, I'm not huge (6'3'' 170) but I'm okay with implementing the airborne truck stick upon a stationary defender whose planned course of action was to take me out or foul me.

I sound like a total jerk.

You know what, before this post I thought you were totally on the wrong end of right but you make some very valid points about playing better defense. Plus it seems like you're not the type of player I was envisioning.

I do have a problem with guys who drive in looking to blatantly create the contact and then cry foul at the slightest touch when they miss their layup. To me that just goes against the etiquette of street ball.

I think part of the reason that charges aren't generally a part of street ball is because not as many ticky-tack fouls are called either; that's what keeps the balance.

In other words you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[DukeC]

Re: The worst pick up players.

You know what, before this post I thought you were totally on the wrong end of right but you make some very valid points about playing better defense. Plus it seems like you're not the type of player I was envisioning.

I do have a problem with guys who drive in looking to blatantly create the contact and then cry foul at the slightest touch when they miss their layup. To me that just goes against the etiquette of street ball.

I think part of the reason that charges aren't generally a part of street ball is because not as many ticky-tack fouls are called either; that's what keeps the balance.

In other words you can't have your cake and eat it too.

That and the fact that dudes don't want to collide into the concrete....

[clipperfan811]

Re: The worst pick up players.

That and the fact that dudes don't want to collide into the concrete....

What?? You don't like the road rash from sliding on concrete? I thought chicks dug scars.

[DukeC]

Re: The worst pick up players.

What?? You don't like the road rash from sliding on concrete? I thought chicks dug scars.

Nope. Especially if your palm skids across the concrete. The worst thing though is your knee going straight down onto a stray rock. That's why I just let either let dudes finish at the rim (which works 50% of the time because dudes expect the contact) or through up a token contest, just to see if I can rattle them into missing it.