Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

[sportyguyfl31]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

AlexBrady is the Hubie Brown of OS.

I could listen/watch/read them discuss basketball, forever.

[wwharton]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

A little OT but since his name was brought up I'll say that I've always felt Kareem gets the short end of the stick when folks are making these lists. I don't know if it's because people think of him and think his patent move was gimmicky or what.

I think it's more bc it's hard to figure out where to rank him. Everyone knows he was great, but even those of us that actually saw him play have to consider the great Lakers teams he had around him while also considering the insane stats he put up year in and year out. I wouldn't put him above Jordan but he could be anywhere after that. There could be good arguments for or against him with probably a good 5 or 6 players, with more to come. Sucks for Big Lou, I guess, but I don't think anyone ignores that he was one of the greatest.

On another note, I'll pile on and give AlexBrady props on that break down of Malone. I think I still like Karl more than you, but I can't argue with any of that. With that said, what are your thoughts on Dirk?

[AlexBrady]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

Nowitzki is a terrific player. He has phenomenal range all the way to the three point line. His pump, shoulder, and ball fakes are all convincing and set up his jumpers. He has all the moves, face up drives, turnarounds, and step backs. Can't foul him because he makes free throws at an elite rate. As a veteran he executes his team's offense much better than he used to. Now, he'll screen and fade/pop, come off down screens, manuever for post position, and will destroy smalls that are forced to switch onto him.
Since he likes to work the foul line area double teaming is risky since he now knows to pass out to open shooters on the wing.

His defense isn't very good since he isn't as quick off the floor as he used to be. He's never been a board hound either. Overall, I think he is a bonafide Hall of Famer and his offense is far ahead of Karl Malone's.

[wwharton]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

Nowitzki is a terrific player. He has phenomenal range all the way to the three point line. His pump, shoulder, and ball fakes are all convincing and set up his jumpers. He has all the moves, face up drives, turnarounds, and step backs. Can't foul him because he makes free throws at an elite rate. As a veteran he executes his team's offense much better than he used to. Now, he'll screen and fade/pop, come off down screens, manuever for post position, and will destroy smalls that are forced to switch onto him.
Since he likes to work the foul line area double teaming is risky since he now knows to pass out to open shooters on the wing.

His defense isn't very good since he isn't as quick off the floor as he used to be. He's never been a board hound either. Overall, I think he is a bonafide Hall of Famer and his offense is far ahead of Karl Malone's.

All very good points... but what about the topic at hand (place in NBA history... and smaller sidebar of his ranking next to Malone).

[PrettyT11]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitski is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

I've never liked Karl Malone. Saw him play countless games and never came away in awe like so many others. He played with a guy in Stockton who threw amazing passes and would always generate open shots for him. If Malone had to score on his own recognizance he wasn't nearly as good. Not to mention he couldn't pass or handle the ball. Defensively, he had limited lateral movement so he would swipe at the ball when his man went up to shoot. This tactic failed more often than it succeeded. In the clutch, he would pass to no one, miss free throws, opt to shoot fadeaways, and generally cost his team the ball game.
The following power forwards were better players for their teams than Malone was.

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin McHale
3. Dave DeBusschere
4. Bob Pettit
5. Jerry Lucas
6. Willis Reed
7. Wes Unseld
8. Nate Thurmond
9. Jack Sikma

I won't argue Malone's weaknesses that you named but again you have reached very far to try and help your point. You pointed out Malone's weaknesses but didn't make a single mention of any of those guys weakness. You are reaching pretty far with this list. First Reed,Unseld,Sikma, and Thurmond were centers. Aside from Duncan, McHale, Lucas, and Pettit if you replaced Malone with any of those guys the Jazz wouldn't have been nearly as good as they was. None of them had the finishing ability, shooting ability(besides Sikma), or athletic ability of Malone. They just flat out couldn't have been able to score anywhere near the level of Malone and keep the Jazz on the level that they were.

[PrettyT11]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitski is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

And Malone would have been able to replace Unseld flawlessly, right? Several of the players on that list played completely different styles than Malone.

I don't want to get into a direct comparison of the two because like I said in the post Unseld was a center not a power forward like a few of those guys were. The point was he was reaching pretty far to try and downplay Malone's role, impact, and importance on his team. I could go into detail about some of those guys but I don't want to take this thread on a completely different direction than what it was intended to be.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

All very good points... but what about the topic at hand (place in NBA history... and smaller sidebar of his ranking next to Malone).

Where does Nowitzki rank among all time power forwards? Ahead of selfish/lazy/choke filled players like Elvin Hayes, Charles Barkley, and Bob McAdoo. Behind elite defenders and integral pieces of Title teams like Dolph Schayes and Dennis Rodman. He's probably on that tier with guys like James Worthy, Kevin Garnett, Bobby Jones, Gus Johnson, and Karl Malone. The rest of my list would look like this.

10. Dolph Schayes
11. Dennis Rodman
12. Karl Malone
13. Dirk Nowitzki
14. James Worthy
15. Gus Johnson
16. Bobby Jones
17. Kevin Garnett

I won't argue Malone's weaknesses that you named but again you have reached very far to try and help your point. You pointed out Malone's weaknesses but didn't make a single mention of any of those guys weakness. You are reaching pretty far with this list. First Reed,Unseld,Sikma, and Thurmond were centers. Aside from Duncan, McHale, Lucas, and Pettit if you replaced Malone with any of those guys the Jazz wouldn't have been nearly as good as they was. None of them had the finishing ability, shooting ability(besides Sikma), or athletic ability of Malone. They just flat out couldn't have been able to score anywhere near the level of Malone and keep the Jazz on the level that they were.

For sure, all of the power forwards I listed had specific weaknesses. But, their weaknesses were less damning than Malone's. Reed, Unseld, Sikma, and Thurmond all played a good deal of minutes at power forward in any given ball game. I never said anything about replacing Malone. I said that these players did more within their respective teams. Reed, DeBusschere and Sikma were versatile scorers and wouldn't have had trouble scoring anywhere at anytime.

[bamalam]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

off the top of my head, and no order


for my list these guys would all be ahead of dirk , presently. dirk still has time to move up. win a ring he jumps past a couple of those guys like ai,kg, bron(for that moment)

mj
magic
bird
kareem
wilt
russell
timmy
shaq
kobe
rodman
pippen
pierce
dwade
i thomas
dumars
mchale
oscar
olajuwon
kidd
ai
bron
kg

dirk arguably in a group with:
barkley,
malone
drexler
cp3


players that could surpass dirk for me


drose
blake griffin
durant

p gasol- although bad year this year, was lal best player in the 09-10 championship run, and has 2 rings. he could bounce back. last year , was being debated who you would rather have , lots of folks chose gasol, including me. this year dirk, by far was /is better.

dhoward


players that most likely wont, unless they win multiple rings

melo
amare
dwilliams
wall




so, with 10 minute analysis, dirk about top 25-30 in my list.

dirk is a great player- no knock to be top 30 all-time.

i remember a quote from him prior to him being drafted. he was being interviewed and they were asking him about schremph(sp?) a fellow german for indiana pacers.

in comparing their bball skills, he replied something along the lines of "yes , schremph is the vw ...Im the porsche..."

[PrettyT11]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

For sure, all of the power forwards I listed had specific weaknesses. But, their weaknesses were less damning than Malone's. Reed, Unseld, Sikma, and Thurmond all played a good deal of minutes at power forward in any given ball game. I never said anything about replacing Malone. I said that these players did more within their respective teams. Reed, DeBusschere and Sikma were versatile scorers and wouldn't have had trouble scoring anywhere at anytime.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on who's weaknesses was less damaging than the other. Also about all of them doing more for their team than Malone. No need to really did into it alot further and take this thread in a different direction. They are all HOF'ers(except Sikma) so it is what it is.

[Dice]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

10. Dolph Schayes
11. Dennis Rodman
12. Karl Malone
13. Dirk Nowitzki
14. James Worthy
15. Gus Johnson
16. Bobby Jones
17. Kevin Garnett

I tell you what, you swap Rodman for Malone in 1996, the Bulls go undefeated that season and Utah is a lottery team.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

I tell you what, you swap Rodman for Malone in 1996, the Bulls go undefeated that season and Utah is a lottery team.

Yeah, I don't think Rodman is anywhere near Dirk honestly. But I've already given my opinion on Rodman before, so I won't get into it again.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

off the top of my head, and no order


for my list these guys would all be ahead of dirk , presently. dirk still has time to move up. win a ring he jumps past a couple of those guys like ai,kg, bron(for that moment)

mj
magic
bird
kareem
wilt
russell
timmy
shaq
kobe
rodman
pippen
pierce
dwade
i thomas
dumars
mchale
oscar
olajuwon
kidd
ai
bron
kg

dirk arguably in a group with:
barkley,
malone
drexler
cp3


players that could surpass dirk for me


drose
blake griffin
durant

p gasol- although bad year this year, was lal best player in the 09-10 championship run, and has 2 rings. he could bounce back. last year , was being debated who you would rather have , lots of folks chose gasol, including me. this year dirk, by far was /is better.

dhoward


players that most likely wont, unless they win multiple rings

melo
amare
dwilliams
wall




so, with 10 minute analysis, dirk about top 25-30 in my list.

dirk is a great player- no knock to be top 30 all-time.

i remember a quote from him prior to him being drafted. he was being interviewed and they were asking him about schremph(sp?) a fellow german for indiana pacers.

in comparing their bball skills, he replied something along the lines of "yes , schremph is the vw ...Im the porsche..."

So where does Steve Nash fall into your list?

[AlexBrady]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

I tell you what, you swap Rodman for Malone in 1996, the Bulls go undefeated that season and Utah is a lottery team.

Both scenarios seem farfetched. Malone never understood the triangle offense in his time with the Lakers. Didn't know when to pass, shoot, cut, ect. Why would he pick up on it when he was so agenda driven earlier in his career? Rodman was a genius level passer, a six space rebounder and an elite defender. He would have been beneficial to any team he played on.

Yeah, I don't think Rodman is anywhere near Dirk honestly. But I've already given my opinion on Rodman before, so I won't get into it again.

Their both Hall of Fame caliber players but for completely different reasons.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

Their both Hall of Fame caliber players but for completely different reasons.

I don't deny that at all.

[ANDROMADA 1]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

This is what the coach actually said.

“In my opinion, he’s a top 10 player in NBA history because of the uniqueness of his game and how he’s carried this franchise on his back for over a decade.”

Nothing wrong with this statement and he qualified it nicely.