Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

[Dice]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

I wouldn't. Ten is a very, very small number... and all time is a very, very long time, lol. In a sport like basketball I think a ring holds a bit of weight, especially when you're talking about the top 10 of all time. I give guys of that era a [i]little[/] pass for playing the same time as Jordan but I wouldn't put Malone in the top 10 all time of all positions. In fact, off the top of my head in no particular order...

MJ
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Big O
Shaq
Kareem
Duncan
Hakeem
Kobe

There are more but just stopping at 10 off the top of my head. And now that I see it, I don't think Dirk makes that list either... I put him on about the same level as Malone, Barkley, etc.

It's not the fact that I'm arguing he's in the top ten, it's the fact that the 'The15thunter' posted on what credible person would put Karl Malone in their top 10. Like putting Malone in the top 10 all time players was like putting some scrub in with the elite guys. I can understand if Karl Malone is not in most people 10 top all time list BUT it's not outrageous to think that he is. Most would consider him the best power forward of all time. I consider him the best TRUE power forward because Duncan to me was more of a hybrid of a PF/C.

Malone in some respects is like Kareem. I great player that no one dares to give him 'the greatest of all time label.' Whenever someone put Kareem ahead of guys like Michael Jordan, it's like a travesty to even possibly think of that. Now I disagree with it myself BUT let's not shoot it down like we're comparing Jordan to Eddie Curry. We are talking about the all-time leading scorer in NBA history. That validates for something. Heck, most people won't even make Kareem the 'best center' in NBA history. Despite the fact that he's scored more points, won more MVP's and won more championships than Olajuwon, Shaq and Wilt.

[PrettyT11]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

Dirk is a sure fire HOF player but is nowhere near a top 10 all time player. This is just a case of a coach praising his great player.

As far as Malone goes I have never heard anybody try to make a case for him over Duncan and I also have never seen anybody try and make a case for him as a top 10 all time player.

[jeebs9]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

If Dirk were to win a ring would that change anyone's mind?

[PrettyT11]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

Malone in some respects is like Kareem. I great player that no one dares to give him 'the greatest of all time label.' Whenever someone put Kareem ahead of guys like Michael Jordan, it's like a travesty to even possibly think of that. Now I disagree with it myself BUT let's not shoot it down like we're comparing Jordan to Eddie Curry. We are talking about the all-time leading scorer in NBA history. That validates for something. Heck, most people won't even make Kareem the 'best center' in NBA history. Despite the fact that he's scored more points, won more MVP's and won more championships than Olajuwon, Shaq and Wilt.

Kareem is on a higher level than Malone though. Kareem is always on top 10 list and has been on a few top 5 list. Some people don't say he is the greatest center of all time but there is only two other guys who are ever agued against him and they are top 5 to 10 all time players as well. When it comes th centers the top 3 spots are always Wilt, Bill, and Kareem. Kareem played the position with the most comp when ranking all time guys so they are not knocking him when they put Bill or Wilt over him. That just shows how great those two guys was as well. I have never seen anybody put Hakeem or Shaq over Kareem.

[wwharton]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

It's not the fact that I'm arguing he's in the top ten, it's the fact that the 'The15thunter' posted on what credible person would put Karl Malone in their top 10. Like putting Malone in the top 10 all time players was like putting some scrub in with the elite guys. I can understand if Karl Malone is not in most people 10 top all time list BUT it's not outrageous to think that he is. Most would consider him the best power forward of all time. I consider him the best TRUE power forward because Duncan to me was more of a hybrid of a PF/C.

Malone in some respects is like Kareem. I great player that no one dares to give him 'the greatest of all time label.' Whenever someone put Kareem ahead of guys like Michael Jordan, it's like a travesty to even possibly think of that. Now I disagree with it myself BUT let's not shoot it down like we're comparing Jordan to Eddie Curry. We are talking about the all-time leading scorer in NBA history. That validates for something. Heck, most people won't even make Kareem the 'best center' in NBA history. Despite the fact that he's scored more points, won more MVP's and won more championships than Olajuwon, Shaq and Wilt.

Sounds like that's just how you're taking it, Dice. Saying he's not top 10 could mean he's top 15... it's just pretty universal that he's not top 10. I agree that he's in the argument for best PF of all time (only bc some refuse to call Duncan a PF even though that's his position) but there are still at least 10 players of other positions I couldn't imagine anyone arguing that he's better than.

If Dirk were to win a ring would that change anyone's mind?

That's what I was getting at. He's got numbers, led his team to great records, has an MVP, great playoff numbers over a long period of time and a finals appearance. Add a ring to that (and likely finals MVP) and what does that do for him? Using the Karl Malone comparison, I think it would've done a lot for Malone.

[PrettyT11]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

If Dirk were to win a ring would that change anyone's mind?

Not mine. It would move him up a spot or two on the ladder but still wouldn't put him into the top 10. He still would rank number 5 maybe number 4 at best in his time behind Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe. There really is no chance for him to surpass those three and he would still probably be behind KG for that number 4 spot. That doesn't even include LeBron who will end up being higher than him as well.

[wwharton]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

Not mine. It would move him up a spot or two on the ladder but still wouldn't put him into the top 10. He still would rank number 5 maybe number 4 at best in his time behind Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe. There really is no chance for him to surpass those three and he would still probably be behind KG for that number 4 spot. That doesn't even include LeBron who will end up being higher than him as well.

A ring would make a debate between him and Garnett very interesting imo. I don't think you can count LBJ right now. He WILL BE ahead of him, but so will probably a bunch of other guys if they continue down the road their on now... some we haven't even seen make that leap yet. We should just stick to as of today (or the end of this season if he gets a ring) I think.

[PrettyT11]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

A ring would make a debate between him and Garnett very interesting imo. I don't think you can count LBJ right now. He WILL BE ahead of him, but so will probably a bunch of other guys if they continue down the road their on now... some we haven't even seen make that leap yet. We should just stick to as of today (or the end of this season if he gets a ring) I think.

It would make it interesting between him and KG that is why I said they would be in battle for that 4th spot. I would still probably give the eadge to KG cause of the defense and in his prime rebounding.

You could count LeBron right now though. I'm sure that if an all time top 50 or 100 list came out LeBron would be higher than Dirk on alot of list. Dirk has a few more years than LeBron but LeBron has been the regarded as the best player in the league the past 3 years and some would argue he has been for the past 5 or 6. Both have a no doubt HOF resume right so whoever gets the ring this year(if either gets it) would give them a big push.

[The15thunter]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

It's not the fact that I'm arguing he's in the top ten, it's the fact that the 'The15thunter' posted on what credible person would put Karl Malone in their top 10. Like putting Malone in the top 10 all time players was like putting some scrub in with the elite guys. I can understand if Karl Malone is not in most people 10 top all time list BUT it's not outrageous to think that he is. Most would consider him the best power forward of all time. I consider him the best TRUE power forward because Duncan to me was more of a hybrid of a PF/C.

Malone in some respects is like Kareem. I great player that no one dares to give him 'the greatest of all time label.' Whenever someone put Kareem ahead of guys like Michael Jordan, it's like a travesty to even possibly think of that. Now I disagree with it myself BUT let's not shoot it down like we're comparing Jordan to Eddie Curry. We are talking about the all-time leading scorer in NBA history. That validates for something. Heck, most people won't even make Kareem the 'best center' in NBA history. Despite the fact that he's scored more points, won more MVP's and won more championships than Olajuwon, Shaq and Wilt.

no, i respect karl malone immensely. went from disliking him to really admiring his consistency, toughness and skill. he is the 2nd best power forward ever behind duncan, and the best "true" power forward, since people like to call duncan a hybrid. he has tons of longevity and consistency and has accumulated a ridiculous volume of statistics that will stand for a long, long time.

that being said, much like wwharton, i can think of ten people off the top of my head to put above him. and then probably another four or five more without really thinking incredibly hard or having to analyze it. it's not that malone isn't a tremendous player, even amongst fellow hall of famers. it's just that, in no conversation, do i feel he can be put in the top ten. is it the same as putting rony seikaly in the top ten? obviously not. but he doesn't warrant being in it, despite his greatness.

so to summarize, malone's great, top two at his position, but that doesn't make him top ten all time.

[Dice]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

no, i respect karl malone immensely. went from disliking him to really admiring his consistency, toughness and skill. he is the 2nd best power forward ever behind duncan, and the best "true" power forward, since people like to call duncan a hybrid. he has tons of longevity and consistency and has accumulated a ridiculous volume of statistics that will stand for a long, long time.

that being said, much like wwharton, i can think of ten people off the top of my head to put above him. and then probably another four or five more without really thinking incredibly hard or having to analyze it. it's not that malone isn't a tremendous player, even amongst fellow hall of famers. it's just that, in no conversation, do i feel he can be put in the top ten. is it the same as putting rony seikaly in the top ten? obviously not. but he doesn't warrant being in it, despite his greatness.

so to summarize, malone's great, top two at his position, but that doesn't make him top ten all time.

That all good. The way it came off just sounded a little disrespectful when you asked what credible person would put him in the top 10. I myself would put him in my top 10 BUT if you disagree, that fine. But I'm not crazy for putting him there. Like I could argue wwharton putting Kobe in his top 10. I myself wouldn't put Kobe there BUT I could understand why someone would put him there. Doesn't make him any less knowledgeable about basketball, we just have different opinions on who should be there.

And this goes into Carlisle opinion on Dirk. If he thinks he's a top ten player then that's his opinion. I totally respect it. I disagree with him BUT who am I to say he's nuts for thinking it. The guy has played and coached in the league for many years. And he's saw first hand as a player and a coach some of these guys we are mentioning.

[Shield]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

He is one of the hardest to check in-game. His defense has always been mediocre, and that's half of a game. Winning a title will definitely help him in some eyes, but i'd place him in the top 30. Maybe even top 20 but of course i started watching bball in 1995.

[wwharton]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

It would make it interesting between him and KG that is why I said they would be in battle for that 4th spot. I would still probably give the eadge to KG cause of the defense and in his prime rebounding.

You could count LeBron right now though. I'm sure that if an all time top 50 or 100 list came out LeBron would be higher than Dirk on alot of list. Dirk has a few more years than LeBron but LeBron has been the regarded as the best player in the league the past 3 years and some would argue he has been for the past 5 or 6. Both have a no doubt HOF resume right so whoever gets the ring this year(if either gets it) would give them a big push.

That's an interesting one to think about to me too. Lets say the Mavs win the championship this year and then the NBA folds forever. Does ringless Lebron sit above Dirk with a ring? I honestly don't know if I'd say he does. In terms of raw talent, there's no question. But putting it all together I may have to give it to Dirk for the ring and the period of time (and the support around him... I don't/didn't expect the Heat to win it this year but if it's the last year we have to go by we have to compare that team to the Mavs and that would make a difference).

You say Dirk and KG would battle for 4? I'm confused bc that would put both in the top 10, no? I'm guessing that's not what you meant bc I think there are others that probably belong above both of them.

[wwharton]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

He is one of the hardest to check in-game. His defense has always been mediocre, and that's half of a game. Winning a title will definitely help him in some eyes, but i'd place him in the top 30. Maybe even top 20 but of course i started watching bball in 1995.

His D has been much better in this year's playoff run. He's no KG or anything but the way I'm looking at it is his offense and rebounding have been consistent and if his D becomes good enough to lead a team to a title (with the best defensive player hurt for the entire playoffs) then he has to get some credit for that.

[The15thunter]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

That's an interesting one to think about to me too. Lets say the Mavs win the championship this year and then the NBA folds forever. Does ringless Lebron sit above Dirk with a ring? I honestly don't know if I'd say he does. In terms of raw talent, there's no question. But putting it all together I may have to give it to Dirk for the ring and the period of time (and the support around him... I don't/didn't expect the Heat to win it this year but if it's the last year we have to go by we have to compare that team to the Mavs and that would make a difference).

You say Dirk and KG would battle for 4? I'm confused bc that would put both in the top 10, no? I'm guessing that's not what you meant bc I think there are others that probably belong above both of them.

i think he means 4th on the power forward list behind duncan, malone and mchale.

[PrettyT11]

Re: Carlisle: Nowitzki is "Top 10 Player in NBA History"

You say Dirk and KG would battle for 4? I'm confused bc that would put both in the top 10, no? I'm guessing that's not what you meant bc I think there are others that probably belong above both of them.

They would be battling for number 4 in their era behind Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe. That is who I was comparing them to in my intial post. Neither Dirk or KG is top 10 players of all time.