NBA Lockout and Collective Bargaining Agreement Discussion

[VanCitySportsGuy]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

Why in the world should we reward crappy teams with even better/more picks than what they get under the current system?

I see nothing wrong with the current draft system. I hate "rewarding" failure.

I've noticed both sides haven't mentioned what the fans will get out of this whole mess. There's no talk of cheaper tickets. When the last lockout ended, every team had a free pre-season game as a thank you to the fans. I think even this is better than nothing.

[Dice]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

I don’t understand the 3rd round thing myself. Majority of NBA talent resides in the first round. You might have a couple of second round gems BUT these are far and few. And then you have very few undrafted free agents who might end up as a starter on a team BUT rarely(if any instance I can think of) that’s a legit NBA all star.

This is not like football or baseball where you’d find a stud in the latter rounds. Basketball is a little more straight-forward in regards to talent. It’s more difficult to scout talent in football and baseball. Now don’t get me wrong, you can still find a bust in the NBA first round. BUT rarely, if ever, does a truly talented NBA player gets past up in the first round.

Tom Brady, who was a 6th round pick, won the NFL MVP last year. Albert Pujols was a 13th round pick and has won NL MVP multiple times. You’ll never find a player in the modern NBA who’s an MVP that was drafted after the first round. Heck, in the last 10 years, only two players that I can come up with that has made an All-NBA team that was either drafted after the first round or undrafted. Those two guys was Manu Ginobli and Ben Wallace.

[VanCitySportsGuy]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

I don’t understand the 3rd round thing myself. Majority of NBA talent resides in the first round. You might have a couple of second round gems BUT these are far and few. And then you have very few undrafted free agents who might end up as a starter on a team BUT rarely(if any instance I can think of) that’s a legit NBA all star.

This is not like football or baseball where you’d find a stud in the latter rounds. Basketball is a little more straight-forward in regards to talent. It’s more difficult to scout talent in football and baseball. Now don’t get me wrong, you can still find a bust in the NBA first round. BUT rarely, if ever, does a truly talented NBA player gets past up in the first round.

Tom Brady, who was a 6th round pick, won the NFL MVP last year. Albert Pujols was a 13th round pick and has won NL MVP multiple times. You’ll never find a player in the modern NBA who’s an MVP that was drafted after the first round. Heck, in the last 10 years, only two players that I can come up with that has made an All-NBA team that was either drafted after the first round or undrafted. Those two guys was Manu Ginobli and Ben Wallace.

I agree.

Adding a 3rd Round is worthless. You know the NBA isn't going to expand the roster limit so the Union wouldn't be gettng more jobs. The chances are less than %1 you will get a rotation player in the 3rd round.

The counter proposal from the Union is also silly. Why should the bottom 15 teams get all the 1st round picks? Why should we even further reward failure?

Every team already has a chance to win under the old CBA. I hate all the talk about needing parity. How about getting smarter GM's?

I also hate Stern blaming everything on the Player's.

[aholbert32]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

Mason claimed he was "hacked" but here's a story about his deleted tweet. Saw it on the Spurs board:

http://www.slcdunk.com/2011/9/7/2411...0404-not-found

LOL...he wasnt hacked. Its looking like the season will start on time.

[aholbert32]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

Why in the world should we reward crappy teams with even better/more picks than what they get under the current system?

I see nothing wrong with the current draft system. I hate "rewarding" failure.

I've noticed both sides haven't mentioned what the fans will get out of this whole mess. There's no talk of cheaper tickets. When the last lockout ended, every team had a free pre-season game as a thank you to the fans. I think even this is better than nothing.

That will come at the end. They havent even presented formal proposals yet.

Also, what have the fans exactly lost yet? If we start losing games then I see your point.

[aholbert32]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

I don’t understand the 3rd round thing myself. Majority of NBA talent resides in the first round. You might have a couple of second round gems BUT these are far and few. And then you have very few undrafted free agents who might end up as a starter on a team BUT rarely(if any instance I can think of) that’s a legit NBA all star.

This is not like football or baseball where you’d find a stud in the latter rounds. Basketball is a little more straight-forward in regards to talent. It’s more difficult to scout talent in football and baseball. Now don’t get me wrong, you can still find a bust in the NBA first round. BUT rarely, if ever, does a truly talented NBA player gets past up in the first round.

Tom Brady, who was a 6th round pick, won the NFL MVP last year. Albert Pujols was a 13th round pick and has won NL MVP multiple times. You’ll never find a player in the modern NBA who’s an MVP that was drafted after the first round. Heck, in the last 10 years, only two players that I can come up with that has made an All-NBA team that was either drafted after the first round or undrafted. Those two guys was Manu Ginobli and Ben Wallace.

Gilbert Arenas too.

[23]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

This can't be like THE deal maker in this whole matter because it makes no sense at all

[aholbert32]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

This can't be like THE deal maker in this whole matter because it makes no sense at all

It isnt. They are still working out the money side of it and the length of guaranteed contracts.

[VanCitySportsGuy]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

That will come at the end. They havent even presented formal proposals yet.

Also, what have the fans exactly lost yet? If we start losing games then I see your point.

I'm assuming we are going to miss some games. Now of course the season could start on time, but I don't think it's going to happen.

[aholbert32]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

I'm assuming we are going to miss some games. Now of course the season could start on time, but I don't think it's going to happen.

I think we will lose two preseason games at the most. As long as the agents dont blow this deal up, I think we will have bball in November.

[Altimus]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

I think we will lose two preseason games at the most. As long as the agents dont blow this deal up, I think we will have bball in November.

My thoughts as well on this. Might be false excitement but I hope it's not.

As far as the 3rd round, unnecessary. 2nd rounders struggle to make teams. Personally I would like to see better system for the NBDL.

[Kashanova]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

Following another long meeting on Thursday, the owners and players have agreed to bring full committees to the negotiating table on Tuesday.

David Stern said there is nothing formal to present to larger committees. Time was right to see if there will "be a deal or shouldn't be a deal."

The two sides met on both Wednesday and Thursday this week.

"We think it's getting to be an important time and it was a good idea to have larger committees," said Stern.



Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap...#ixzz1XS7U1wqc

This is good news, I hope they can get the cba soon.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

Fisher mentioning "a deal" gives me hope!

[Mintsa]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

As long as they're talking......that's always good news. It's when they don't talk/have meetings when it's bad news.

[Dice]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

Seems like a lot of conflicting opinions from the writers about the lockout. While Sheridan earlier this week claimed optimism in regards to the NBA season, Kelly Dwyer from Yahoo Sports doesn't seem as optimistic about the lockout:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Lockout-news-is-the-same-as-it-ever-was-Hope-fo?urn=nba-wp8254

Last March we brought you some quotes culled from the handbook that the NBA Players Association gave their constituents, preparing them for an extended labor impasse. Titled "Hope For the Best, Prepare For the Worst," the book went into great detail about how to avoid the usual pratfalls of stardom and largesse, sound words for any climate, much less one that will take away your paychecks (as negotiated and agreed-upon by your employers in good faith, fully guaranteed) for an extended period of time.

Moke Hamilton, writing at Charged.FM, has gotten his hands on the handbook, and in light of the recent good cheer emanating from negotiations between the Players Association and the NBA, one passage is worth reconsidering:

But reading between the lines and connecting dots is where the real fun begins. Billy Hunter confirms that he's been privately warning players to prepare for a lockout for more than two years. Want more? How about the fact that—on the NBPA's advice—many players that signed new contracts within the past two years have negotiated for deferred payments so that they could actually receive checks during the lockout? Throughout the handbook, references are made to the fact that some players will continue receiving checks until November 1st, 2011.

(Under normal circumstances, NBA players are paid bi-monthly on the 1st and 15th of each month. Payments normally begin on November 1st and end on May 1st. Thanks to the union's advice, a healthy portion of the union's members deferred half of their compensation so that they would continue to receive checks up until THIS November 1st).

Now, this is a bit of a jump. Just because Hunter encouraged players to defer payments from their 2010-11 and potentially 2009-10 salaries until this summer and early fall, it hardly means the players followed through. And with the sheer amount of players already under contract that are seeking out relatively tiny international contracts, you get the feeling that players took the money as it usually came and just hoped that the finances would be on the up and up later. I know the feeling.

Regardless of the guesswork behind the deferred payments, Hamilton is correct in pointing out that November 15th is the "doomsday scenario" (the NBAPA's cliché, not mine) when it comes to missing checks. If you're a player that deferred your payments, this will be the first payment cycle that you go without getting a check. If you took the orthodox route, and haven't been paid since the 2010-11 season ended? This will be your first payment cycle without a 2011-12 check. Either way, nobody is getting paid. Save for the owners, who will still take in that sweet and equally-shared national TV money, even with no games.

The lockout is in its third month, but it's also coming off its first extended meetings since before the lockout was put in place. Has anything changed? Is there room for hope, as we attempt to accurately gauge where we are in the proceedings? The answers are multifaceted, they involve much guesswork, and they're not too far removed from where we started three months ago.

The hope for fans moving forward ignores the fact that the owners are well-heeled and ready to endure the money lost from missed games this fall. The hope for fans is that the national TV revenue and eye toward a more economically stable NBA future will not be enough for the owners as a collective to pass on those gate receipts, the local TV revenue, and (shock horror) working as a job creator within a large community.

According to sources that are talking to the New York Times' Howard Beck, the players are attempting to do their part. As we've stated before, our belief is that this lockout (as it stands) is overwhelmingly the owners' fault, but if any games are lost? Then it would be the fault of an intractable Players Association. Which is why it's encouraging to read this, even if our cynicism leads us to believe that no actual movement was made over the last week:

When N.B.A. labor talks resumed Wednesday, for an extended session in Midtown Manhattan, officials from the players union opened with a broad premise: Tell us what it will take to end the lockout and save the 2011-12 season.

The union's request sparked a discussion that lasted five and a half hours, which in turn led to another five-and-a-half-hour session Thursday. Both sides declined to offer details, judgments or predictions, and they cautioned the public not to draw any conclusions. But for the first time in two years, there seems to be movement, or at least a constructive dialogue.

Of course, telling the other side that you'll do anything is one thing. Following through on their reply is another. Sorry for going all Meatloaf on you, but who among us hasn't promised someone that they'll do anything to stay in their good graces, just not that.

Cynicism and lowered expectations, while not virtue in most of the real world, is a healthy thing in this area. It's just the lay of this particular land, unfortunately.

The two sides are going to meet again on Tuesday with a broader constituency (more players, more owners) present, and then retire to their respective hidey-holes (the owners are meeting in Dallas, the players in Los Angeles) to go over two weeks' worth of negotiations. More voices in the room will always lead to tougher and more fractured negotiations; and the internal discussions that follow Tuesday's negotiations will only serve to steel up the respective causes of either side, rather than help the two ends move closer toward the middle. Wherever that is.

It's not wrong to be pessimistic, because this is just the order of the day. Even if significant ground has been covered over the last few meetings, significant voices that go beyond sensible types like Players Association representative Derek Fisher(notes) or owners' representative (and San Antonio Spurs boss) Peter Holt still have to be talked down, and talked into new concessions. Assuming any have been made over the last week. We don't know, because neither side is talking much.

As Steve Aschburner of NBA.com, a sensible voice if there ever was one, succinctly pointed out -- "tone isn't content." For all we're aware, both sides could have made significant inroads over the last few meetings, but to guess that an agreement is close merely because David Stern isn't getting all defensive on podcasts, or players aren't sniping to any website that will quote them? That's optimism gone mad.

Once you factor in the two biggest reasons for this extended impasse (two reasons that are no less prominent, despite the tactful tones) -- the players don't want to give back money, and the owners' incentive to give in is dwarfed by their collective ability to hold out -- and we're just about right where we started.

At least on record. If there's hope to be found in ignorance, well, then we must be swimming in the stuff at this point.