NBA Lockout and Collective Bargaining Agreement Discussion

[Court_vision]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

I actually felt different. He gave on the hard cap. The players have to find a way to be happy with amore agressive luxury cap. If they can, then a deal is done. The ball is in the players' court.

I hope you are right

[TheMatrix31]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

I don't want to seem too for the owners but the way I see it is this... most owners, not all, but a good number of owners just don't know the game. This is why teams have management for player decisions. The owners sign of on the deal but they are all advised by management. In the case of Rashard Lewis, Otis Smith is the one to blame. Should the owners do more homework, perhaps. But when you pay someone to do a job you pay them to do a solid job. Plus if you constantly refuse moves your GM and coach want to make then you're not going to find a GM or coach of quality to run your team. But in extreme situations like the Lewis contract then it should have been vetoed by the owner. Either way decisions like this are impacted by the current system. Overspend now or you'll be left with nothing.

Now last year's frenzy was another issue with how broke the system is. Here are some examples:

Hakim Warrick / $18,000,000 / 4 Years
Channing Frye / $30,000,000 / 5 Years
JJ Redick /$19,000,000 / 3 Years
Travis Outlaw / $35,000,000 / 5 Years
Drew Gooden / $32,000,000 / 5 Years
Mike Miller / $30,000,000 / 5 Years
David Lee / $80,000,000 / 6 Years
Brendan Haywood / $55,000,000 / 5 Years
Joe Johnson / $121,000,000 / 6 Years

Among others. Some of these players aren't worth half what they're getting paid. This is all because of the system in place. The other reason is the owners were convinced they were paying with monopoly money so they figured why not overspend? We'll get it back with a amnesty clause and by cutting down the BRI. They've already cut the BRI by 4% and I have no doubt they'll get more. Not to mention shorter contracts. Either way, they get the blame as well.

The bottom line is there is a lot of blame to go around and both parties are responsible because at the end of the day it's an agreement and contract by two parties. The old system needs help and we can all agree on this. The reason IMO players are getting more backlash because of their behavior. Their unwillingness to work it out. "United We Stand", Carmelo Anthony comments, Kevin Garnett theatrics, and so on. No one wants to lose pay but right now it is necessary for the life of this sport. People on the outside looking at this situation look at it as if normal people are getting cuts, why can't these millionaires?

Don't want to nitpick, or seem like a homer....but Frye' contract is not bad at all. He improved his game a LOT after signing his contract and is no longer just a 6'10 Eddie House. Dude plays solid D, rebounds decently enough, developed a bit of a post game, and can still shoot lights out. Pleasant surprise.

[aholbert32]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

Let's say that does happen and they force the Owners to end the Lockout, couldn't the Owners then just file an appeal(kind of like what happened in the NFL)and then the Lockout would be back on while they're reviewing the appeal?

It will be over a year before the NLRB actually issues a ruling. The players would have a better shot of decertifying and filing an actual lawsuit and even that is a horrible idea. The NLRB complaint has a 1% chance of ending the lockout while a decert lawsuit would have a 1.5% chance of ending the lockout. The difference is the NLRB complaint is much cheaper and the union can remain intact.

[23]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

Either way the players are just going to screw themselves with stubborness

The main thing is still the main thing... the players need to get with the program and see what the reality is... the ball is in their court

[da ThRONe]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

I don't want to seem too for the owners but the way I see it is this... most owners, not all, but a good number of owners just don't know the game. This is why teams have management for player decisions. The owners sign of on the deal but they are all advised by management. In the case of Rashard Lewis, Otis Smith is the one to blame. Should the owners do more homework, perhaps. But when you pay someone to do a job you pay them to do a solid job. Plus if you constantly refuse moves your GM and coach want to make then you're not going to find a GM or coach of quality to run your team. But in extreme situations like the Lewis contract then it should have been vetoed by the owner. Either way decisions like this are impacted by the current system. Overspend now or you'll be left with nothing.

Now last year's frenzy was another issue with how broke the system is. Here are some examples:

Hakim Warrick / $18,000,000 / 4 Years
Channing Frye / $30,000,000 / 5 Years
JJ Redick /$19,000,000 / 3 Years
Travis Outlaw / $35,000,000 / 5 Years
Drew Gooden / $32,000,000 / 5 Years
Mike Miller / $30,000,000 / 5 Years
David Lee / $80,000,000 / 6 Years
Brendan Haywood / $55,000,000 / 5 Years
Joe Johnson / $121,000,000 / 6 Years

Among others. Some of these players aren't worth half what they're getting paid. This is all because of the system in place. The other reason is the owners were convinced they were paying with monopoly money so they figured why not overspend? We'll get it back with a amnesty clause and by cutting down the BRI. They've already cut the BRI by 4% and I have no doubt they'll get more. Not to mention shorter contracts. Either way, they get the blame as well.

The bottom line is there is a lot of blame to go around and both parties are responsible because at the end of the day it's an agreement and contract by two parties. The old system needs help and we can all agree on this. The reason IMO players are getting more backlash because of their behavior. Their unwillingness to work it out. "United We Stand", Carmelo Anthony comments, Kevin Garnett theatrics, and so on. No one wants to lose pay but right now it is necessary for the life of this sport. People on the outside looking at this situation look at it as if normal people are getting cuts, why can't these millionaires?

Agreed. My point is I haven't read many people say hey if the owners really care about correcting the system how about they just control what they can control. Instead of strong arming the players into rules to protect themselves from themselves. The players don't want to give a significant % of the BRI while accepting a very restrictive salary cap structure.

We can agrue whether or not it's smart of the players to hold their ground, but the issues the owners have they can control by simply hiring/asking their FO people that don't/not to over spend for players. If they could preach/have self control lesser tweaks would be enough.

[23]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

other quotes I see online

The players are not sharing the risk. They are not losing money from the owners' proposed CBA. They are getting less money than they would have under the old CBA. There is a fundamental difference. They invest no money and get (for the most part) guaranteed multiyear contracts. They have no potential to lose money. There is no financial risk for the players.

Yes the owners did take a risk to invest in a business and now they are losing money. You are right about that, but did you expect them to not do anything about it? Running a business is not like placing a bet. They don't just sit back and watch. If they're losing money, then they're going to cut expenses. It is not comparable to a bailout in the least bit. Nobody is giving them any money. They are trying to prevent losing money in the future. They would continue to do so if they give the players everything they want.

[da ThRONe]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

other quotes I see online

At no point in that quote did that person/s question the decisions made by the owners. This is why I say many people are giving them passes in their role of losing money. Nobody is saying ok if the players are willing to give back 2/3 of the owners losses it's on the owners to make up the other 1/3. Then people agree with things like amnesty clauses that will cost the owners more money.

[Marino]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

other quotes I see online

The final few lines nailed it.

[23]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

At no point in that quote did that person/s question the decisions made by the owners. This is why I say many people are giving them passes in their role of losing money. Nobody is saying ok if the players are willing to give back 2/3 of the owners losses it's on the owners to make up the other 1/3. Then people agree with things like amnesty clauses that will cost the owners more money.

You need to stop man

Either you are just completely oblivious to whats happening here, or you're purposely ignoring whats been said to you over and over in this thread

This is a clean slate, its not what you remember....thats the first problem

There is no good guy bad guy here, only a negotiation, and there is a system in place that needs to be overhauled

As of now, the players dont have anything to give back.. They have ZERO dollars right now...ZERO. Its a blank negotiation with no signatures on it

Frankly I think the players have the wrong people in place fighting for them...especially Billy Hunter with his continual doublespeak..with him talking its almost like the owners dont have to say anything because this dude contradicts himself then the players follow up with saying some stupid stuff and the reality still doesnt change...they're going to take whats on the table or end up taking less

Look at this guy



Another post

I agree that its a negotiation, so there is no good guy or bad guy. Each of us have to objectively look at the proposed deals and the economic realities and decide which side we agree with. What Hunter and/or Stern say in general terms about the other side really doesn't matter a whole lot.

I've noticed throughout that Hunter's quotes are frequently self-contradictory. I have not found that with Stern. So as far as presenting a fact is concerned, I'm very leary of what Hunter says. This provides yet another example. Here is the Hunter quote from this article:

“I don’t think [the owners] are negotiating in good faith. That’s what’s frustrating. David Stern told me three years ago – and I keep reiterating that because people keep pulling up their cup on it – that they were going to lock out [the players] in order to get what it was they wanted. And what he’s done is done that. [Stern] said he was going to lock out [the players] and his owners were prepared to lock out to get what they wanted.


Sounds premedited and threatening, doesn't it? Now compare it with this quote, also from Billy Hunter describing what appears to be the exact same conversation:

“It goes back to a comment that David said to me several years ago, when he said this is what my owners have to have,” Hunter said Monday night, after the first two weeks of the 2011-12 NBA regular season were canceled. “And I said, ‘Well, the only way you’re going to get that is, you prepare to lock us out for a year or two.’ And he’s indicated to me that they’re willing to do it.”


Sounds a little different now, no? Basically, Stern told Hunter what the owners were going for and Hunter said "You'll have to lock us out for years to get that" and Stern, in response said "So be it." Hunter himself described it that way. When he saw his words in print, he probably noticed that it could be interpreted that the PA was the aggressor, so now he's spinning it differently.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

Can somebody post some quotes, articles or whatever about the Owners getting blamed so this guy can leave it alone for once and stop bitching about "Bahhhhh all you guys do is blame everything on the players". Do you need someone to hold your hand to tell you that isn't true at all.

My goodness man, this Lockout needs to end.

[23]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

I did.. Dennis Rodman blamed them just a few posts ago

...but it seems like alot of the quotes Im posting that still boils down to the reality are being skipped over because no matter the blame, the end result is the same, and there seems to be either a lack of understanding whats happening or just a complete nay to what the owners wnat

The players are going to have to come to themselves, that things have changed. Its a different world now, and the sooner its realized the better off they'll be, rich young guys who play a game for a living

[da ThRONe]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

You need to stop man

Either you are just completely oblivious to whats happening here, or you're purposely ignoring whats been said to you over and over in this thread

This is a clean slate, its not what you remember....thats the first problem

There is no good guy bad guy here, only a negotiation, and there is a system in place that needs to be overhauled

As of now, the players dont have anything to give back.. They have ZERO dollars right now...ZERO. Its a blank negotiation with no signatures on it

Frankly I think the players have the wrong people in place fighting for them...especially Billy Hunter with his continual doublespeak..with him talking its almost like the owners dont have to say anything because this dude contradicts himself then the players follow up with saying some stupid stuff and the reality still doesnt change...they're going to take whats on the table or end up taking less

Look at this guy



Another post

LOL I need to stop having an opinion that differ from yours. OK.

Once again the whole "things are different" line go both ways. Franchise should have to be smarter about how they do business. I'm all on board for a change, but the game is being held up because teams can't spend wisely so they have to construct rules as safety nets just as much as if not more(IMO) as the players are refusing to concede more.

I think there's something wrong that you have to charge teams 5 to 1 up to 10 to 1 luxury taxes to get them to be smart about spending.

Sure you can blame the system and that's correct, however I don't think the owners get to point at the players and say it can only be fit through the players consessions only.

As far as negotiations goes. I don't know how you competely ignore the previous deal?

I'm no Hunter fan, but Stern is just as bad with contradictioning his self.

[cjonesfan921]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

I don't blame the owners. Like a few of the quotes that have shown up here, the owners take all the risk.

Sir Charles mentioned the economic crisis, and that is also a huge part of this. Less fans are attending because of finances, fuel has gone up, (private team jets) and an array of other expenses, while the players keep making more, and the owners, less.

They need to completely change the model and that's what they are trying to do. The players need to get of their high horse. This #standunited crap is ridiculous. You guys had the better end of the deal last time, now, both sides must work to make a deal that both sides agree on.

I'm a Knicks fan, and while I love seeing Amare and 'Melo on the Knicks, I hated the way 'Melo forced the issue. These guys are paid an insane amount of guaranteed (no risk to them) money and yet do what they want.

I make a decent wage, in comparison to the average American, and you better believe if I don't pull my end of the bargain, I'm done, (ironically, posting this from work ) I don't receive compensation for my yearly contract.

At the end of the day, the man who cuts the check has the leverage. Whether these players realize it or not, the game will survive without them, whereas they wont survive without the game.

Stern catches a ton of heat, but, he is a big reason as to why the NBA grew the way it did. I was listening to Mike&Mike during my commute and Greeny basically said how Stern transformed the NBA from having the finals tape-delayed to being where it was last year.

I fully believe that Amare was joking about setting up a league, but if he isnt, he is out of his damn mind. I'm convinced most of these guys, if not for their ability to play the game, would have accomplished next to nothing in life. They open their mouths and just all that comes out is garbage.

No one is entitled to anything. Yes, you are entitled to receive a check for doing a service. In the real world, if you don't do that service to the degree that is expected, you are finished. In their world though, it's not, and they want to keep it that way.

For everyone saying the owners need to be accountable, they are. They are saying, basically, we eff'd up, and now their adamant on fixing it. How many people know someone that was given a high paying job, and not doing their part? Well in the NBA's case, I would need a lot more hands and feet than I have right now.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

Now look at Amare running his mouth. AGAIN.

Amar'e tells Newsday "Sarver, for sure" is a hardline owner and "probably the main guy who is pushing for this lockout." #NBA

Amare's upset that Sarver showed fiscal restraint and didn't cave in to the players. Good management by Sarver, shocking. Amare wanted (and got, from NY) all five years guaranteed but Sarver only guaranteed money for 3 of the years. For a guy with demonstrated health problems, Amare can go screw himself.

[da ThRONe]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

I don't blame the owners. Like a few of the quotes that have shown up here, the owners take all the risk.

And the players are the ones out there generating the revenue

[quote]Sir Charles mentioned the economic crisis, and that is also a huge part of this. Less fans are attending because of finances, fuel has gone up, (private team jets) and an array of other expenses, while the players keep making more, and the owners, less.]

The players are agreeing to take less

They need to completely change the model and that's what they are trying to do. The players need to get of their high horse. This #standunited crap is ridiculous. You guys had the better end of the deal last time, now, both sides must work to make a deal that both sides agree on.

Both sides mean the owners need to be reasonable with their demands. They players are giving everything and getting nothing in return. I think they understand they have to concede. Now it's a matter of how much.

I'm a Knicks fan, and while I love seeing Amare and 'Melo on the Knicks, I hated the way 'Melo forced the issue. These guys are paid an insane amount of guaranteed (no risk to them) money and yet do what they want.

That's the players only leverage is FA and Melo used it to his advantage. Also Denver weren't forced to trade Melo they made the decision they thought was best for them.

I make a decent wage, in comparison to the average American, and you better believe if I don't pull my end of the bargain, I'm done, (ironically, posting this from work ) I don't receive compensation for my yearly contract.

I don't know you so I'm assuming here, but I would wager your skill doesn't generate billions in revenue.

At the end of the day, the man who cuts the check has the leverage. Whether these players realize it or not, the game will survive without them, whereas they wont survive without the game.

That's the case here as well. The owners have pretty much all the leverage here, but that doesn't make them right. Also that's why employees start/join unions so they can have more leverage.

Stern catches a ton of heat, but, he is a big reason as to why the NBA grew the way it did. I was listening to Mike&Mike during my commute and Greeny basically said how Stern transformed the NBA from having the finals tape-delayed to being where it was last year.

I don't think anybody is questioning what Stern has done for the sport, but that doesn't make him right here either. Also it doesn't mean his decision making has been good for the sport lately.

I fully believe that Amare was joking about setting up a league, but if he isnt, he is out of his damn mind. I'm convinced most of these guys, if not for their ability to play the game, would have accomplished next to nothing in life. They open their mouths and just all that comes out is garbage.

I think the players shouldn't discuss the labor situation. It's what the owners do. They hired Stern and they let him do almost all the talking.

No one is entitled to anything. Yes, you are entitled to receive a check for doing a service. In the real world, if you don't do that service to the degree that is expected, you are finished. In their world though, it's not, and they want to keep it that way.

Yet the teams will give big money to players that have not shown any reason to give people the idea they are worth it. Players like Ben Gordon, Travis Outlaw, Ed Curry, Ramon Sessions, Andris Biedrins etc. are getting big money without even proving they are worthy of it. How are we letting teams off the hook for giving out that kind of contracts to guys when most fans think it's bad deals.

For everyone saying the owners need to be accountable, they are. They are saying, basically, we eff'd up, and now their adamant on fixing it. How many people know someone that was given a high paying job, and not doing their part? Well in the NBA's case, I would need a lot more hands and feet than I have right now.

Accountablity isn't blaming the other party and expecting them to make up all the losses from their end.

Players have already agree to less BRI percentage, shorter contracts, and a stricter salary cap structure. Now it's a matter of how much they will give.