Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

[Dice]

Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

OH trust me, Bird would not be able to keep up with Iggy defensively. Heck, I remember Cliff Robinson of the Washington Bullets having some good games against Bird. Who? So yes, Bird wouldn't be able to keep up defensively today with the modern day SF.

[airjoca]

Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

OH trust me, Bird would not be able to keep up with Iggy defensively. Heck, I remember Cliff Robinson of the Washington Bullets having some good games against Bird. Who? So yes, Bird wouldn't be able to keep up defensively today with the modern day SF.

Name me a few better modern SFs than Scottie Pippen and Dominique.

[Dice]

Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

Name me a few better modern SFs than Scottie Pippen and Dominique.

So if I do, what does that have to do with the discussion?

[Sam Marlowe]

Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

"Having a good game" and blowing someone off the court are two enitirely different things. There are a number of player who "have good games" againt many of todays elite defenders. You're argurment is based in hyperbole. Another example is Paul Pierce. With his athleticims all but gone, how is it that he can still stay on the court with so many elitle SF's around? Hell for thst matter hwo the hell did MJ at 40 years old (about the athletic equivalent of Bird ir you wanna go there) even get shots of against these athletic monsters you referring to? The fact is this, there arent nearly enough good or great defenders at Bird's position now to diminish his game recognizably. The same goes for his defensive match-up. Lost in all of this is the fact that Bird was a tremendous help defender and played the passing lanes very well to.

[Dice]

Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

"Having a good game" and blowing someone off the court are two enitirely different things. There are a number of player who "have good games" againt many of todays elite defenders. You're argurment is based in hyperbole. Another example is Paul Pierce. With his athleticims all but gone, how is it that he can still stay on the court with so many elitle SF's around? Hell for thst matter hwo the hell did MJ at 40 years old (about the athletic equivalent of Bird ir you wanna go there) even get shots of against these athletic monsters you referring to? The fact is this, there arent nearly enough good or great defenders at Bird's position now to diminish his game recognizably. The same goes for his defensive match-up. Lost in all of this is the fact that Bird was a tremendous help defender and played the passing lanes very well to.

Are you kidding me? MJ even at 40 was twice as athletic as Bird in his prime. Same with Pierce. There is no comparison on the athletic end for Bird when it comes to Pierce and Jordan even at their advanced ages. I remember Jordan's best block of his career is when he was playing for the Wizards and against the Bulls he caught Ron Mercer's shot off the glass. Here's a video of it if you haven't seen it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucJk22gCMHE Larry Bird in his prime couldn't do something like that. So there is no way your going to compare Bird's athleticism to Jordan's.

[Sam Marlowe]

Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

Are you kidding me? MJ even at 40 was twice as athletic as Bird in his prime. Same with Pierce. There is no comparison on the athletic end for Bird when it comes to Pierce and Jordan even at their advanced ages. I remember Jordan's best block of his career is when he was playing for the Wizards and against the Bulls he caught Ron Mercer's shot off the glass. Here's a video of it if you haven't seen it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucJk22gCMHE Larry Bird in his prime couldn't do something like that. So there is no way your going to compare Bird's athleticism to Jordan's.

In the Jordan example I'm referring to vertical lift. Jordan at 40 is getting any higher than a 6'9 Bird in his prime. Paul Pierce at his age now doesn't rely on athleticism to score. Paul Pierce right now is not "twice as athletic" as Bird was in his prime.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Z7Ixy8Uttq0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Every kind of defense play Bird makes here would be available to him today. What I stated before still stands,"The fact is this, there arent nearly enough good or great defenders at Bird's position now to diminish his game recognizably. The same goes for his defensive match-up. Lost in all of this is the fact that Bird was a tremendous help defender and played the passing lanes very well to."

[Dice]

Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

Every kind of defense play Bird makes here would be available to him today. What I stated before still stands,"The fact is this, there arent nearly enough good or great defenders at Bird's position now to diminish his game recognizably. The same goes for his defensive match-up. Lost in all of this is the fact that Bird was a tremendous help defender and played the passing lanes very well to."

Your only as good of a help defender as your defense allows you to be. Of course Bird was a great help defender when you got Parish and McHale in back of you and DJ in front. How great would Bird be if he was playing with the Bobcats?

If you looked at those Finals against the Lakers, why do you think McHale was guarding James Worthy? Not just because McHale was the Celtics best defender BUT KC Jones didn't want Worthy to score 50 points that night by having Larry Bird guard him.

[Sam Marlowe]

Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

Your only as good of a help defender as your defense allows you to be. Of course Bird was a great help defender when you got Parish and McHale in back of you and DJ in front. How great would Bird be if he was playing with the Bobcats?

If you looked at those Finals against the Lakers, why do you think McHale was guarding James Worthy? Not just because McHale was the Celtics best defender BUT KC Jones didn't want Worthy to score 50 points that night by having Larry Bird guard him.

Again, you're referencing the best of the best. Bird isn't going to face that kind of player most nights. Outside of LBJ and KD at SF who in the League is as prolific a scorer as Worthy was in his prime? You listed LeBron James, Gerald Wallace, Andrea Iguodala, Tony Allen and Thabo Sefolosha as players who would cause Bird to have trouble on offense. Thats 5 guys in the entire League. If you really believe what you said (aside from LBJ I don't buy anyone on that list). When you look at how Bird scored his points back then I don't see how you can honestly say what you've been saying when we might have five guys who really can only affect his driving game enough to take it away as a threat.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

That's the problem. Bird won't be facing Glenn Rice and Szczerbiak because they're not playing right now. Bird in today's game would be facing guys like LeBron James, Gerald Wallace, Andrea Iguodala, Tony Allen and Thabo Sefolosha. All guys who are excellent perimeter defenders. I don't see him driving against any of those guys. Which takes something away from his perimeter game. He'll still knock down shots if he gets open on screens BUT the only option he has in creating his own shot would be in the post.

That's why his scoring numbers would take a hit if he didn't upgrade his physical athleticism to today's game. He was barely average athletically in his own era. He would be well below average in today's game. NOW, upgrade his athleticism and give Bird a good first step and you restore his drive game. He doesn't need to be super quick but with Bird just give him an average first step and he can work from there. You take his athletisicm from the 80's and try that first step and he's not going anywhere.

When the Lakers slowed their game down in 91, I thought Worthy had a solid season. I think Worthy can adjust to a slow down game because he always had an excellent post game throughout his career. His defense wasn't as good as I'd like it but he wasn't a liability. Rebounding is the same.

Well, Bird was really a three and a half and spent considerable time at power forward. Of those defenders, only Iguodala and Allen could keep from being torched. He used fakes and jab steps to set up his drives. Bird also had the vision to move into spaces before they actually opened, and he was a resourceful scorer. Bird's dribbles and drives covered more ground than you give him credit for.

Scottie Pippen was a truly great team defender, but his individual defense was 'only' good. In truth, he was highly succeptible to bruising scorers and guys who used misdirection cuts to avoid challenging his quickness.

The 1990 confrontation proved to be revealing. Its worth noting that Bird's back was totally screwed up and he wasn't the player he once was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzIT8PECaSE&feature=related

17:00- Bird used a ball-fake to lose Pippen on a closeout, Pippen desperately swiped at the ball but Bird missed an open jumper.
24:30- Bird posted Pippen but missed an open step back.
27:45- Bird used a Parish screen to lose Pippen and converted a lefty layup.
29:45-Bird worked hard to fight for post position but Pippen pushed him to the perimeter, Bird missed a face up jumper.
30:50-Bird popped off a Parish screen, jab stepped to lose Pippen and navigated his way into the lane.
31:24-Bird up-faked by Pippen, but Pip poked Bird's dribble away.
32:30- Bird posted Pippen, converted a turn-around jumper.
51:57-Bird curled off a Parish screen, and navigated into the lane, but missed a semi-complicated runner.
53:10-Bird came off Parish screen, and sank a jumper.
53:58-Off an out of bounds, used a hesitation to lose Pippen and get into the lane.
58:53: Used another Parish screen, and popped a jumper.
50:50: Popped off Parish screen, faked and drove by Pippen, Pip desperately swiped at the ball.
1:00:15- Off an out of bounds, drilled a three pointer in Pippen's grill.
1:06:33- Came off Parish screen, but missed open jumper.
1:09:30- Initiated body contact, and made fall-a-way jumper.
1:12:32- Bird fouled on shot by Pippen in three point territory.

All told, Larry Bird finished 6-11 for 15 points when face to face with Pippen on these viewable plays. A considerable number.

[wwharton]

Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

Bird would be fine. His competitive drive is the reason he was as successful even in the 80's. He would find a way.

I disagree about Worthy too. Grant Hill still can't shoot 3's but that hasn't stopped him from being a key player, even late in his career.

BTW, I think Pierce is a good comparison to Larry Legend.

[Dice]

Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

Again, you're referencing the best of the best. Bird isn't going to face that kind of player most nights. Outside of LBJ and KD at SF who in the League is as prolific a scorer as Worthy was in his prime? You listed LeBron James, Gerald Wallace, Andrea Iguodala, Tony Allen and Thabo Sefolosha as players who would cause Bird to have trouble on offense. Thats 5 guys in the entire League. If you really believe what you said (aside from LBJ I don't buy anyone on that list). When you look at how Bird scored his points back then I don't see how you can honestly say what you've been saying when we might have five guys who really can only affect his driving game enough to take it away as a threat.

And this goes back to my original argument of Bird adjusting his game to being a full time PF. Yes, I've seen Bird play and I knew how he got his points. It wasn't the typically, give Bird the ball on the perimeter and get out of the way. Even though he could score on isolation's back then. BUT now he'd either score off of screens, like majority of his points back then OR he's back someone in the post. Bird was a very smart basketball player and he knows when he needs to adjust his game. That's why I gave you the example of the match-up Bird had with Pippen in 1990. I've seen Bird take guys off the dribble in his prime. BUT when he faced athletic wings who could play good perimeter defense, he takes them to the post. That was how he played it. In today's game, he'd be doing it on a regular basis.

And I see you danced around the statement of Bird being a good help defender. The simple fact of the matter is that Bird does nothing for your team defensively. Even in his prime, if the Celtics missed Larry Bird, they would not suffer defensively. Offensively, yes. McHale, Parish and DJ made Bird look great on 'help defense'.

And as for those five guys I mentioned, your missing the point on that. Depending on what team and division you put Bird on, your going to see those five guys on a regular basis. Yes, go ahead and put Bird on the Bobcats where he has to face LeBron multiple times and watch him get ripped to shreds defensively. Or throw him with the T-Wolves where he's going to have to check Durrant multiple times and watch Durrant bust 50 on Bird every night. Bird's best bet to play close to adequate defense at the SF spot is probably in the Central Division. They don't have as many threats at the SF as other divisions. BUT then again, if your talking about advancing through the playoffs, Bird is going to have to face LeBron or Durrant in a 7-game series. And if you got Bird 'As Is' checking those guys then your in serious trouble.

[Dice]

Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

Well, Bird was really a three and a half and spent considerable time at power forward. Of those defenders, only Igoudala and Allen could keep from being torched. He used fakes and jab steps to set up his drives. Bird also had the vision to move into spaces before they actually opened, and he was a resourceful scorer. Bird's dribbles and drives covered more ground than you give him credit for.

Scottie Pippen was a truly great team defender, but his individual defense was 'only' good. In truth, he was highly succeptible to bruising scorers and guys who used misdirection cuts to avoid challenging his quickness.

The 1990 confrontation proved to be revealing. Its worth noting that Bird's back was totally screwed up and he wasn't the player he once was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzIT8PECaSE&feature=related

17:00- Bird used a ball-fake to lose Pippen on a closeout, Pippen desperately swiped at the ball but Bird missed an open jumper.
24:30- Bird posted Pippen but missed an open step back.
27:45- Bird used a Parish screen to lose Pippen and converted a lefty layup.
29:45-Bird worked hard to fight for post position but Pippen pushed him to the perimeter, Bird missed a face up jumper.
30:50-Bird popped off a Parish screen, jab stepped to lose Pippen and navigated his way into the lane.
31:24-Bird up-faked by Pippen, but Pip poked Bird's dribble away.
32:30- Bird posted Pippen, converted a turn-around jumper.
51:57-Bird curled off a Parish screen, and navigated into the lane, but missed a semi-complicated runner.
53:10-Bird came off Parish screen, and sank a jumper.
53:58-Off an out of bounds, used a hesitation to lose Pippen and get into the lane.
58:53: Used another Parish screen, and popped a jumper.
50:50: Popped off Parish screen, faked and drove by Pippen, Pip desperately swiped at the ball.
1:00:15- Off an out of bounds, drilled a three pointer in Pippen's grill.
1:06:33- Came off Parish screen, but missed open jumper.
1:09:30- Initiated body contact, and made fall-a-way jumper.
1:12:32- Bird fouled on shot by Pippen in three point territory.

All told, Larry Bird finished 6-11 for 15 points when face to face with Pippen on these viewable plays. A considerable number.

Hey, I like this. Great breakdown.

BUT I was referring to more of this game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y19q9478NUo

I couldn't find the whole game but just watching the highlights, you saw that when Grant was guarding Bird, who is a PF, he was able to get that first step on him and drive it to the lane. Check the 2:57 mark. Most of his point off of Pippen where screens. BUT there was an instance at the 5:27 mark when Bird scored on Pippen off a quick release jumper. And at the 1:03 mark when he jab stepped and threw that shot up there. OK, I'll give you a cookie. BUT look how comfortable Bird was in the post at the 1:13 mark. Nice and easy back down and right hand hook.

What worries me about Bird playing the SF is what I saw at the 1:36 mark. And I know it's Scottie Pippen BUT still.

This is not a knock on Bird. One of the greatest players in NBA history and loved watching him play BUT I'm sorry, he'd have to be a full time PF if he's to have the same success as he had when he played.

[Sam Marlowe]

Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

^^^
Thats one of the most hyperbole ridden, BS posts I've ever seen. I'll be home from work in a few hours, I'll adress it fully then. Wow...

[Sam Marlowe]

Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

I'm referencing your direct response to me.

[wwharton]

Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

And this goes back to my original argument of Bird adjusting his game to being a full time PF. Yes, I've seen Bird play and I knew how he got his points. It wasn't the typically, give Bird the ball on the perimeter and get out of the way. Even though he could score on isolation's back then. BUT now he'd either score off of screens, like majority of his points back then OR he's back someone in the post. Bird was a very smart basketball player and he knows when he needs to adjust his game. That's why I gave you the example of the match-up Bird had with Pippen in 1990. I've seen Bird take guys off the dribble in his prime. BUT when he faced athletic wings who could play good perimeter defense, he takes them to the post. That was how he played it. In today's game, he'd be doing it on a regular basis.

And I see you danced around the statement of Bird being a good help defender. The simple fact of the matter is that Bird does nothing for your team defensively. Even in his prime, if the Celtics missed Larry Bird, they would not suffer defensively. Offensively, yes. McHale, Parish and DJ made Bird look great on 'help defense'.

And as for those five guys I mentioned, your missing the point on that. Depending on what team and division you put Bird on, your going to see those five guys on a regular basis. Yes, go ahead and put Bird on the Bobcats where he has to face LeBron multiple times and watch him get ripped to shreds defensively. Or throw him with the T-Wolves where he's going to have to check Durrant multiple times and watch Durrant bust 50 on Bird every night. Bird's best bet to play close to adequate defense at the SF spot is probably in the Central Division. They don't have as many threats at the SF as other divisions. BUT then again, if your talking about advancing through the playoffs, Bird is going to have to face LeBron or Durrant in a 7-game series. And if you got Bird 'As Is' checking those guys then your in serious trouble.

The Bird vs James match up is being a bit overstated. First, nobody can stop Lebron one on one besides Lebron. Any team would force him into long jump shots or dedicate a great deal of help to whoever's guarding him. The game isn't 5 different one on one match ups, and that's part of the problem with today's game. I always say you play man D like you're in a zone and play zone D like you're playing man. The point is, you ALWAYS play team defense and the older guys did that better than most of the new players of today.

Also, with that said, Bird may be the biggest trash talker ever. Lebron is a physical specimen but a mental midget. I have no doubt Bird could get in his head on both ends of the court, even if it meant playing dirty.

There's a lot of speculation going on here, so I'll also add that it's crazy to suggest Bird wouldn't still be a star with the argument that he'd struggle against the Lebrons of the league. He did play with some pretty good HOFers and beasts on offense and was still in the discussion of who's the best player in the game. James has shriveled in the spotlight, and most recently against a team built around a very Bird-like player. Larry Legend would be just fine in today's game.