NBA 2011-2012 MVP Thread

[BringTheHeat]

Re: NBA 2011-2012 MVP Thread

LeBron isn't having one of the "greatest seasons of all time" anymore. Using that as a platform to justify him winning the MVP is disingenuous, wouldn't you say? In fact, his line has fallen below some of those he posted in Cleveland. He was riding a hot streak, as great players do, but now he's cooling back down to his typical averages.

Earlier in the season he was feasting on fast break points, but now that Miami isn't forcing as many turnovers or creating as many fast break opportunities those points have dried up and he's being forced to execute in the half court. And with his inability to consistently beat defenders off the dribble in said sets, that sometimes proves a struggle. Especially if his jumper isn't falling.

As for whose more deserving of the MVP? Fan hood aside, you have to go with Durant. When you think about the fact that OKC has gone from the 7th seed overall and 4th seed in the west to 2nd overall(still in contention for first) and 1st in the west, while Miami has remained stagnant in their league and conference positioning, you have to lean in Durant's favor. Moreover, Durant waxed LeBron in the head to head match up, and has proven the leagues best clutch player where LeBron continues to struggle.

I don't think there's enough separation in their stat lines to justify giving LeBron the award over Durant considering the above.

LeBron: 27/8/7/53fg%/60.6ts%

Durant: 28/8/3/50fg%/61ts%

If OKC wins at Miami on the 4th than Durant has is it won, I think.

Funny how a near triple double average and over 50% from the field is considered "typical averages" huh? He is still on pace to set several career highs this year and he leads Durant in every statistical category except FT%, 3pt%, PPG, and Minutes Played. LeBron is not known as a 3 point shooter so can you truly chalk this up as an advantage to KD?

Talking about Miami's game has nothing to do with the MVP discussion. The Thunder defense is sub-par and they turn the ball over too much, anyway.

MVP is an award about this season, not seasons prior. Last seasons record means nothing. The award for improving is Most Improved Player, not MVP. And is it really an argument saying that because Miami has remained good that he doesn't need the MVP?
As far as clutch goes, clutch has never been , nor will ever be a factor in the MVP race. And yet another point, LeBron is a much better defender than Kevin Durant.

So if you want to argue stats here's two for you:
LeBron James PER: 30.6 (1st)
Kevin Durant PER: 26.8 (3rd)

LeBron James Win Shares/48 Minutes: .297 (1st)
Kevin Durant Win Shares/48 Minutes: .236 (5th)

[Jukeman]

Where does RWB stands?

He's just as valuable with the "my turn, your turn offense"

Top 5?

Sent from my HumancentiPad using Tapatalk

[Bumi]

Re: NBA 2011-2012 MVP Thread

Funny how a near triple double average and over 50% from the field is considered "typical averages" huh?

I don't see the humor?

He is still on pace to set several career highs this year

That's a far cry from "having one of the greatest seasons ever", and hardly justification for the MVP award.

and he leads Durant in every statistical category except FT%, 3pt%, PPG, and Minutes Played.

Well, that's not every statistic, now is it? Not that the MVP is purely based on statistics. Albeit, they are a significant factor.

LeBron is not known as a 3 point shooter so can you truly chalk this up as an advantage to KD?

Yes.

Talking about Miami's game has nothing to do with the MVP

I'd say it has plenty to do with the MVP, actually.

discussion. The Thunder defense is sub-par and they turn the ball over too much, anyway.

I agree. But they're good enough to dismantle the Heat, so their deficiencies prove conducive with success.

MVP is an award about this season, not seasons prior. Last seasons record means nothing. The award for improving is Most Improved Player, not MVP. And is it really an argument saying that because Miami has remained good that he doesn't need the MVP?

Last seasons records and individual statistics have plenty to do with the MVP. Otherwise, how would we ever have pre season MVP favorites? Plus, Durant turning OKC around was one of the key factors in him contending with LeBron for the MVP during 09-10, where he finished second.

And even if we weren't going to factor that unto the discussion, OKC still has a better record than Miami, and Durant still dominated LeBron in the head to head match up.

As far as clutch goes, clutch has never been , nor will ever be a factor in the MVP race. And yet another point, LeBron is a much better defender than Kevin Durant.

I disagree. Rose's late game heroics were a key factor in him winning the award last year. What you do when it matters is far more important than padding stats in blowouts. Not insinuating LeBron does this, but in general.

So if you want to argue stats here's two for you:
LeBron James PER: 30.6 (1st)
Kevin Durant PER: 26.8 (3rd)

PER isn't a stat. It's a set of perceived values attributed to a individual basketball statistics in an effort to create an all encompassing "rating" to grade a players versatility.

LeBron James Win Shares/48 Minutes: .297 (1st)
Kevin Durant Win Shares/48 Minutes: .236 (5th)

What is a win share, and what does it prove, and how?

[st0rmb11]

Re: NBA 2011-2012 MVP Thread

I can't, in good conscience, keep Dwight in my Top 5 after last night.

I'm not penalizing his team for losing by over 25 points; I do hold it against him that his team has now done that 3 times this season - by far the most of any teams currently in the playoffs. How does a "superstar" & "MVP candidate" let a really good team get beat by 25+ more times in a season than the Wizards & Raptors have?

And his little bitch fit last night after they were getting blown out, where he disassociated himself with the team by sitting at the end of the bench & pouting? That disqualifies you as a MVP candidate for me because part of of being an MVP is NOT quitting on your team, or seemingly being disinterested in the coach & teammates.

That being said, I don't know if the media & voters will care because..Kobe won in 2008, which is still one of the biggest farces ever in MVP history. (you know, after bitching and moaning all off-season about wanting a trade, then opened the season wanting them to trade Bynum and others..it wasn't until they traded for Gasol that he "bought in" to his team.)

I see Dwight the same way - when things are going good, he wants the credit. When things are bad, he wants the blame on someone else.

[BringTheHeat]

Re: NBA 2011-2012 MVP Thread

It's funny because with a stat line like 27/8/7 EVERY SINGLE YEAR, he should be winning it every year. His stats are absolutely ridiculous for one player. Mind you, this is stuff Jordan didn't even do. LeBron, as far as pure stats go, is basically scoring slightly less than Jordan and doing a little more of everything else. Tell me that's not valuable.

As far as one of the best seasons ever, yes, PER isn't a single stat but rather an Offensive rating, and since apparently that's all the MVP is about, I think PER is a very good indicator of who is the best player that year. LeBron has a PER this year of 30.6, this is on pace to be the 12th best season in NBA history, and if you think Wilt's stats were inflated you can take off his seasons and that puts this year in 8th place all time. Like I said, I don't like using PER because I personally think defense should be part of the MVP discussion, but it never has been.

The fact that Kevin leads LeBron in 3pt% and FT% just shows he's a better shooter, not a better all around player. And remember, Kevin is playing more minutes that LeBron is. And I hate making excuses but anyone not completely ignorant knows LeBron is in a funk right now, he's had some bumps and everyone knows he wasn't 100% for that OKC game. I saw it in person and you could just tell he was off. Wait until the series is over to say KD dominated him.

As much as I'd like clutch to be a factor in MVP voting it just won't be. Never has been. And yes I agree that KD is more clutch than LeBron.

Win shares: http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html Basically a formula taken from a baseball formula to generate how many wins a single player produces for his team. This accounts for defense and offense and in my opinion is a very useful stat.

So I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree because it seems our views on what an MVP is supposed to be is different. But I do have one more question, who would you give the MVP to if say in Miami LeBron dominates KD?

[BringTheHeat]

Re: NBA 2011-2012 MVP Thread

I can't, in good conscience, keep Dwight in my Top 5 after last night.

I'm not penalizing his team for losing by over 25 points; I do hold it against him that his team has now done that 3 times this season - by far the most of any teams currently in the playoffs. How does a "superstar" & "MVP candidate" let a really good team get beat by 25+ more times in a season than the Wizards & Raptors have?

And his little bitch fit last night after they were getting blown out, where he disassociated himself with the team by sitting at the end of the bench & pouting? That disqualifies you as a MVP candidate for me because part of of being an MVP is NOT quitting on your team, or seemingly being disinterested in the coach & teammates.

That being said, I don't know if the media & voters will care because..Kobe won in 2008, which is still one of the biggest farces ever in MVP history. (you know, after bitching and moaning all off-season about wanting a trade, then opened the season wanting them to trade Bynum and others..it wasn't until they traded for Gasol that he "bought in" to his team.)

I see Dwight the same way - when things are going good, he wants the credit. When things are bad, he wants the blame on someone else.

Have to agree with you, Dwight is probably around number 6 or 7 on my list.

[airjoca]

Re: NBA 2011-2012 MVP Thread

Mind you, this is stuff Jordan didn't even do. LeBron, as far as pure stats go, is basically scoring slightly less than Jordan and doing a little more of everything else. Tell me that's not valuable.

Now let's compare LeBrons and MJs stats in the Finals:

Spoiler

[BringTheHeat]

Re: NBA 2011-2012 MVP Thread

Now let's compare LeBrons and MJs stats in the Finals:

Spoiler

Funny. But MVP doesn't involve Playoffs, sadly.

[Nathan_OS]

Funny. But MVP doesn't involve Playoffs, sadly.

Finals MVP does. LOL.

Back on topic tho, KD is playing ball.

Lebron just looks sluggish out there.

[BringTheHeat]

Re: NBA 2011-2012 MVP Thread

Finals MVP does. LOL.

Back on topic tho, KD is playing ball.

Lebron just looks sluggish out there.

I think the MVP voting should wait until after the playoffs at least. Before the Finals start.

Yeah but you can't deny what LeBron has done before 2 weeks ago. The past 2 weeks shouldn't overshadow the entire season

[ballsohard]

Re: NBA 2011-2012 MVP Thread

Before I even reply, I'm going to say that I see this as a neck and neck race. Which ever player's team ends up with the better record should end up MVP. That said...

and he leads Durant in every statistical category except FT%, 3pt%, PPG, and Minutes Played.

Don't forget BPG. :wink:

LeBron is not known as a 3 point shooter so can you truly chalk this up as an advantage to KD?

Oh, most definitely. Durant doesn't handle the ball anywhere near as much as LeBron, but you're going to count his assist totals as an advantage right?

Talking about Miami's game has nothing to do with the MVP discussion.

Why wouldn't it?

As far as clutch goes, clutch has never been , nor will ever be a factor in the MVP race.

That's news to me.

[BringTheHeat]

Re: NBA 2011-2012 MVP Thread

Before I even reply, I'm going to say that I see this as a neck and neck race. Which ever player's team ends up with the better record should end up MVP. That said...


Don't forget BPG. :wink:



Oh, most definitely. Durant doesn't handle the ball anywhere near as much as LeBron, but you're going to count his assist totals as an advantage right?


Why wouldn't it?


That's news to me.

1. Agree that it'll be close. One of the closest in recent years actually.

2. I did forget blocks, thank you for correcting me.

3. Guess I should've said it better. Like for example..Putting Dirk against Tim Duncan, Dirk is a MUCH better shooter but Tim is a much better post player. You wouldn't say Duncan is better because he has a better post game. They play the game differently and while the difference between Bron and KD isn't that drastic, I don't think KD's shooting should necessarily be an advantage because you could say the same thing about LeBron's post game compared to Durants.

4. They handle the ball about the same amount. Both usage % are 31%. Durant does a ton of top of the key iso's while LeBron usually brings the ball up in the 4th quarter kind of like Carmelo did as a point-forward.

5. Different teams play different ways, there is no one successful way to play. If the Heat and LeBron got "easy" baskets all the time why doesn't every team in the league play like the Heat? Granted they don't have the talent that Wade and LeBron do but those two certainly aren't the only two who can explode into a fast break.

6. After doing a bit more research I admit I am wrong. Over the past 5 years, the MVP has been either 1 or 2 in clutch points/48 minutes. Durant leads the league this year.

7. One point that nobody has commented on, what about defense? LeBron has an overwhelming advantage there that nobody seems to care about. Players LeBron is guarding are averaging a PER of 9.4. Over 5 point below league average. He is third in this category behind Iguodala and Battier.

[Bumi]

Re: NBA 2011-2012 MVP Thread

3. Guess I should've said it better. Like for example..Putting Dirk against Tim Duncan, Dirk is a MUCH better shooter but Tim is a much better post player. You wouldn't say Duncan is better because he has a better post game. They play the game differently and while the difference between Bron and KD isn't that drastic, I don't think KD's shooting should necessarily be an advantage because you could say the same thing about LeBron's post game compared to Durants.

Durant has a very good post game though? And Durant is a significantly better shooter than LeBron. He's shooting nearly 10% better from 16-23 feet, and is a much better 3pt shooter. And before you quote percentages and point to the fact that LeBron is a 36% 3pt shooter this year, keep in mind that Durant has made around 60 more three's and averages 3 more attempts per game.

4. They handle the ball about the same amount. Both usage % are 31%. Durant does a ton of top of the key iso's while LeBron usually brings the ball up in the 4th quarter kind of like Carmelo did as a point-forward.

Usg% doesn't measure how often a player is on the ball, it measures possessions used. For example; Per their respective teams 100 possessions, each of them use around 31% of those possessions.

5. Different teams play different ways, there is no one successful way to play. If the Heat and LeBron got "easy" baskets all the time why doesn't every team in the league play like the Heat? Granted they don't have the talent that Wade and LeBron do but those two certainly aren't the only two who can explode into a fast break.

You just answered your own question. Every team doesn't rack up easy buckets ala the Heat because few if any teams are privy to the luxuries granted by having two of the best fast break players in the league.

7. One point that nobody has commented on, what about defense? LeBron has an overwhelming advantage there that nobody seems to care about. Players LeBron is guarding are averaging a PER of 9.4. Over 5 point below league average. He is third in this category behind Iguodala and Battier.

People say this, but it contradicts what's actually happening on the court. Durant has quietly become a very good defender. Not as good as LeBron, but the gap isn't large enough that comments such of the above are warranted. He's allowing .78 points per possession to LeBron's .85. Defenders are shooting 32.7% while being guarded by Durant, and 38.9% while being guarded by LeBron.

Stats gathered per synergy sports.

[BringTheHeat]

Re: NBA 2011-2012 MVP Thread

Durant has a very good post game though? And Durant is a significantly better shooter than LeBron. He's shooting nearly 10% better from 16-23 feet, and is a much better 3pt shooter. And before you quote percentages and point to the fact that LeBron is a 36% 3pt shooter this year, keep in mind that Durant has made around 60 more three's and averages 3 more attempts per game.



Usg% doesn't measure how often a player is on the ball, it measures possessions used. For example; Per their respective teams 100 possessions, each of them use around 31% of those possessions.



You just answered your own question. Every team doesn't rack up easy buckets ala the Heat because few if any teams are privy to the luxuries granted by having two of the best fast break players in the league.



People say this, but it contradicts what's actually happening on the court. Durant has quietly become a very good defender. Not as good as LeBron, but the gap isn't large enough that comments such of the above are warranted. He's allowing .78 points per possession to LeBron's .85. Defenders are shooting 32.7% while being guarded by Durant, and 38.9% while being guarded by LeBron.

Stats gathered per synergy sports.

1. I wasn't going to bring up LeBron's 3 pointers because again I don't feel how the player plays in that regard is that important. DWade is better player overall, but Ray Allen is a better shooter. Night and day. I know Durant is a better shooter than LeBron, and I also know that LeBron is a much better post player than Durant. Durant doesn't have the same post moves LeBron has nor does he have the power to really play in the post. Granted, LeBron's new "post game" isn't quite Tim Duncan level but it's much better than Kevin's.

2. Yes I know what it is, but if a player is using a possession isn't he going to have a chance to make an assist? They have the ball equal amounts. Aside from when Westbrook goes Mamba mode.

3. I don't know where you got the original stats on feasting on fast break points and how they aren't doing that anymore at but.. Since the All Star break, they are forcing the same amount of turnovers, allowing 3 less points per game, and getting 2 more steals per game. I'd say if anything their game hasn't changed much. LeBron is in a funk, plain and simple, he's not failing to execute in the halfcourt or can't beat people off the drive (seriously? LeBron James can't drive?), he is just in a funk and people need to wait before crowning Durant. Durant has only outplayed LeBron for 2 weeks now.

4. I don't have access to Synergy so I'll have to take your word for those stats. And me personally would rather look at the overall effect, the fact that LeBron is shutting down players' completely is more impressive to me than a player lowering their PPG. Lowering someones PER means lowering assist, rebound, and point numbers.

[Vni]

Re: NBA 2011-2012 MVP Thread

Lebron has a post game really?