Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

[Jukeman]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

I think if the goal is more mature players trying to address it with 17-20 year old young men will result in an extremely high failure rate no matter how many years their forced to stay.

I don't buy the maturity thing, especially with the money.

Its a cultural thing, if you never had it you will never know how to react to it. These "student athletes" don't have time to be learning economics and accounting stuff while actually caring about it.

Old folks blow their lottery jackpots all the time..

FWIW.

I know a couple of people who went to Temple (a pretty damn good school) for 4 years and weren't exactly "mature" when it came to basketball and life.

I think the best learning experience is from actually living it. You're relying on these "rookies" to come in and be the leader and face of your franchise while throwing big contracts at them..Thats a problem no matter the age!

[wwharton]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

There's nothing conclusive that says 3 or 4 year players are more successful than HS and 1 and done players. I'm sure if you look at the list of 4 years players in the last 25 years they are more players out of the league after 5 years than HS player.

Really? The last 25 years? Do you think the sample size is anywhere close to valid comparing kids coming straight out of HS vs 3 or 4 years in college to even make that a worthy statement here? Coming out after 3 years used to be reserved for the absolute best like Magic and Jordan. Now we have guys coming out after 1 year hoping to find a spot on an NBA bench. There's nothing conclusive about any statement you or I have made because the landscaped has completely changed and it hasn't been different long enough to have very reliable data.

But my point goes beyond talent, which is seems you're looking at. HS kids rely on natural talent, are lucky to have good and focused coaching, and/or an internal drive to push themselves beyond what's necessary for their level of competition. Many people don't know HOW to train like you need to as a professional athlete. Many more don't know how to handle adversity when they're challenged in a way far beyond anything before bc they jumped a big level of development. Then we include dealing with coaches that aren't just happy to have you; teammates that not only won't get out of your way bc you're the star but I are old enough to be your father but with higher expectations bc your success could determine their next pay check; fans that aren't just happy with you being the BMOC but are ready to criticize whenever you sneeze without covering your mouth; and family that aren't just coming to pat you on the back but constantly have a hand out and you have to manage your money to the point of not letting them break you but being man enough to tell some of them no.

Not everybody gets this down even after 4 years of college. But that's not a supporting argument for the other side. That's just proof that it's not easy, and more reason efforts should be made. "Another year or two" isn't just about the time we as fans watch the college basketball season or these players growing a year older in age. There's A LOT of variables that shift in this scenario.

BTW, Jukeman and da throne, are either of you old enough to really comment on general maturity? Not hating, I just remember both of you being pretty young. To this day I still look back and realize how immature my thinking was on things I thought I had a firm grasp of at the time. Working with HS bball players, I can tell you there is a lot to maturity... even off the court that can play a huge role on the court.

[da ThRONe]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

Really? The last 25 years? Do you think the sample size is anywhere close to valid comparing kids coming straight out of HS vs 3 or 4 years in college to even make that a worthy statement here? Coming out after 3 years used to be reserved for the absolute best like Magic and Jordan. Now we have guys coming out after 1 year hoping to find a spot on an NBA bench. There's nothing conclusive about any statement you or I have made because the landscaped has completely changed and it hasn't been different long enough to have very reliable data.

But my point goes beyond talent, which is seems you're looking at. HS kids rely on natural talent, are lucky to have good and focused coaching, and/or an internal drive to push themselves beyond what's necessary for their level of competition. Many people don't know HOW to train like you need to as a professional athlete. Many more don't know how to handle adversity when they're challenged in a way far beyond anything before bc they jumped a big level of development. Then we include dealing with coaches that aren't just happy to have you; teammates that not only won't get out of your way bc you're the star but I are old enough to be your father but with higher expectations bc your success could determine their next pay check; fans that aren't just happy with you being the BMOC but are ready to criticize whenever you sneeze without covering your mouth; and family that aren't just coming to pat you on the back but constantly have a hand out and you have to manage your money to the point of not letting them break you but being man enough to tell some of them no.

Not everybody gets this down even after 4 years of college. But that's not a supporting argument for the other side. That's just proof that it's not easy, and more reason efforts should be made. "Another year or two" isn't just about the time we as fans watch the college basketball season or these players growing a year older in age. There's A LOT of variables that shift in this scenario.

BTW, Jukeman and da throne, are either of you old enough to really comment on general maturity? Not hating, I just remember both of you being pretty young. To this day I still look back and realize how immature my thinking was on things I thought I had a firm grasp of at the time. Working with HS bball players, I can tell you there is a lot to maturity... even off the court that can play a huge role on the court.

My point is either you have that internal drive or you don't. I don't think that college does an effective job of weeding these guys from one another, or creating that drive altogether.

I understand it's difficult to get the hard data, but I don't think you should start incorporating new rules without any.

As far as maturity I wouldn't say I'm the model for it. I recently relocated from New Orleans to Los Angeles. I'm 31 recently married and expecting my 1st child so I think I have my feet are firmly planted.

[wwharton]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

My point is either you have that internal drive or you don't. I don't think that college does an effective job of weeding these guys from one another, or creating that drive altogether.

I understand it's difficult to get the hard data, but I don't think you should start incorporating new rules without any.

As far as maturity I wouldn't say I'm the model for it. I recently relocated from New Orleans to Los Angeles. I'm 31 recently married and expecting my 1st child so I think I have my feet are firmly planted.

The problem is there is a lot more to consider than "internal drive". If you're just focused on weeding guys out based on that then you might as well throw it all out. None of this discussion should be based on weeding out guys that have the proper internal drive.

Moving from no limit to having to play 1 year in college was implemented with no data on its effect bc it hadn't been done before. If you base adding rules on hard data then nothing will ever change bc you need the change to have the data. There isn't a parallel league you can look at to see how effective rule changes you're thinking of could be.

Yeah, I thought you were still in your early 20's (not a blind assumption based on anything, I thought I read that at some point).

[SuperChargers]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

1995: Garnett (No. 5 overall)
1996: Kobe Bryant (No. 13), Jermaine O'Neal (No. 17), Taj McDavid (undrafted)
1997: Tracy McGrady (No. 9)
1998: Al Harrington (No. 25), Rashard Lewis (No. 32), Korleone Young (No. 40), Ellis Richardson (undrafted)
1999: Jonathan Bender (No. 5), Leon Smith (No. 29)
2000: Darius Miles (No. 3), DeShawn Stevenson (No. 23)
2001: Kwame Brown (No. 1), Tyson Chandler (No. 2), Eddy Curry (No. 4), DeSagana Diop (No. 8), Ousmane Cisse (No. 46), Tony Key (undrafted)
2002: Amar'e Stoudemire (No. 9), DeAngelo Collins (undrafted), Lenny Cooke (undrafted)
2003: LeBron James (No. 1), Travis Outlaw (No. 23), Ndudi Ebi (No. 26), Kendrick Perkins (No. 27), James Lang (No. 48). (Note: Charlie Villanueva initially applied for the Draft out of Blair Academy in New Jersey, but withdrew and went to Connecticut instead.)
2004: Dwight Howard (No. 1), Shaun Livingston (No. 4), Robert Swift (No. 12), Sebastian Telfair (No. 13), Al Jefferson (No. 15), Josh Smith (No. 17), J.R. Smith (No. 18), Dorell Wright (No. 19), Jackie Butler (undrafted)
2005: Martell Webster (No. 6), Andrew Bynum (No. 10), Gerald Green (No. 18), C.J. Miles (No. 34), Ricky Sanchez (No. 35), Monta Ellis (No. 40), Lou Williams (No. 45), Andray Blatche (No. 49), Amir Johnson (No. 56), Curtis Brown (undrafted), Jr., Kyle Luckett (undrafted)

Here's a list of all 47 players that came straight from high school from 1995 to 2005, along with an article explaining how much talk of high school players being busts more often than not, simply isn't true. Good read and very relevant to the thread.

http://www.nba.com/2012/news/features/david_aldridge/04/09/morning-tip-nba-draft-age-limit-debate/index.html

[da ThRONe]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

The problem is there is a lot more to consider than "internal drive". If you're just focused on weeding guys out based on that then you might as well throw it all out. None of this discussion should be based on weeding out guys that have the proper internal drive.

Moving from no limit to having to play 1 year in college was implemented with no data on its effect bc it hadn't been done before. If you base adding rules on hard data then nothing will ever change bc you need the change to have the data. There isn't a parallel league you can look at to see how effective rule changes you're thinking of could be.

Yeah, I thought you were still in your early 20's (not a blind assumption based on anything, I thought I read that at some point).

The reason the league made the rule is for marketing proposes. Guys like Derrick Rose, John Wall, Anthony Davis etc. can come into the league with a ready made fanbase. That's the only legit reason and the only thing I agree with Kerr about.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

Here's a list of all 47 players that came straight from high school from 1995 to 2005, along with an article explaining how much talk of high school players being busts more often than not, simply isn't true. Good read and very relevant to the thread.

http://www.nba.com/2012/news/feature...ate/index.html

How many of those players have sound fundamentals though? Only Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, and Kendrick Perkins. And how long did it take for all those guys to learn the pro game while taking up a useful roster spot and lowering the bar for everyone else?

[da ThRONe]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

How many of those players have sound fundamentals though? Only Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, and Kendrick Perkins. And how long did it take for all those guys to learn the pro game while taking up a useful roster spot and lowering the bar for everyone else?

What would you rather a 4years collegiate with sound fundamentals thats out of the league in 4 year or a HS/1&done player with questionable fundamentals that's a solid role players for a decade.

I understand the fundmental arguements, but that's not act like there's no Ben Wallace's that stay in college and come out with no offensive game what so ever. Or you can't get a guy like Al Jefferson who came straight out of HS. That has Hakeem type post moves. Once again it totally depends on the individual and there's zero proof and IMO no reason tk believe college makes any difference.

[Jukeman]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

How many of those players have sound fundamentals though? Only Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, and Kendrick Perkins. And how long did it take for all those guys to learn the pro game while taking up a useful roster spot and lowering the bar for everyone else?

You think 4 years of college would have helped those "other" guys learn sound fundamentals?

Its possible but its also not a guarantee.

Example A. Duke players (usually stay 3-4 years)

Example B. Ryan Hollins (do you see his footwork? It's terrible and he's already been in the league for 6 years)

[AlexBrady]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

What would you rather a 4years collegiate with sound fundamentals thats out of the league in 4 year or a HS/1&done player with questionable fundamentals that's a solid role players for a decade.

I understand the fundmental arguements, but that's not act like there's no Ben Wallace's that stay in college and come out with no offensive game what so ever. Or you can't get a guy like Al Jefferson who came straight out of HS. That has Hakeem type post moves. Once again it totally depends on the individual and there's zero proof and IMO no reason tk believe college makes any difference.

Ben Wallace is the wrong example, since he came into the league with a total understanding of the off-ball game (which is my problem with most of these players). He could screen, box out, and pre-emptively position himself on defense. Sure, he couldn't score, but some guys just don't have the touch.

Al Jefferson certainly has a nice touch in the low post. But he has a limited face up game and he falls away from the basket when he shoots (which is why he rarely visits the free throw line). He doesn't defend when he can't block the shot and he doesn't box out on the defensive glass. Don't confuse a decent scorer for a fundamental ballplayer. And comparing this guy to Hakeem is basketball heresy.

You think 4 years of college would have helped those "other" guys learn sound fundamental?

Its possible but its also not a guarantee.

Example A. Duke players (usually stay 3-4 years)

Example B. Ryan Hollins (do you see this guy's footwork? geez and he's already been in the league for 6 years)

It depends on the school, the coach doing the teaching, and the willingness of the player to learn. Soft, finesse players with bad hands like Ryan Hollins will always be marginal players.

[Jukeman]

Ben Wallace is the wrong example, since he came into the league with a total understanding of the off-ball game (which is my problem with most of these players). He could screen, box out, and pre-emptively position himself on defense. Sure, he couldn't score, but some guys just don't have the touch.

Al Jefferson certainly has a nice touch in the low post. But he has a limited face up game and he falls away from the basket when he shoots (which is why he rarely visits the free throw line). He doesn't defend when he can't block the shot and he doesn't box out on the defensive glass. Don't confuse a decent scorer for a fundamental ballplayer. And comparing this guy to Hakeem is basketball heresy.




It depends on the school, the coach doing the teaching, and the willingness of the player to learn. Soft, finesse players with bad hands like Ryan Hollins will always be marginal players.

I agree, but those coaches are a dying breed..

Bruce Weber is a great teacher...

If you are not winning and bringing in the top talent, you're job is in jeopardy for someone like Coach Cal who is just a charismatic guy..

Coach K is great and his best NBA player who stayed more than 3 years is maybe Grant Hill? (I am a young guy) out of all the years he's been at Duke?

I also think with an unnecessary age limit change that you are risking losing alot of players to the Euros..

Adopting MLB's rules and expanding the minors to fully develop players (actually applying the parent's club strategies instead of playing freestyle BB which is what most DLeague teams do) is the only logical solution here.

[wwharton]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

The reason the league made the rule is for marketing proposes. Guys like Derrick Rose, John Wall, Anthony Davis etc. can come into the league with a ready made fanbase. That's the only legit reason and the only thing I agree with Kerr about.

Not going to get into it but this isn't true. It's a reason, yes...but not the only reason.

Here's a list of all 47 players that came straight from high school from 1995 to 2005, along with an article explaining how much talk of high school players being busts more often than not, simply isn't true. Good read and very relevant to the thread.

http://www.nba.com/2012/news/feature...ate/index.html

That's a great article, thanks.

The problem is the question isn't about whether or not it's a good decision for the kids declaring from a financial stand point. That's really what the article is focusing on for the most part... did they get paid? Are they serviceable?

Many of us are looking at the state of the NBA, and that would include all of these players that are in it so yeah, they are getting paid and are on teams.

This quote in particular touches on the point.

Is the desire for a higher age limit drawing from a genuine desire for young players to become more mature, both physically and emotionally, thus making them better players and citizens when they come out of school?

It's a completely different discussion of whether or not this is really what the NBA, or NCAA for that matter, really cares about. That's beside the point. This is what they SHOULD be caring about, and any pop sports psychologist can look over the cast of characters spread around today's NBA and see clearly how the lack of this type of maturity is effecting the league.

He also talks about the MLB system which I think is great and would be perfect on a smaller scale. For whatever reason, it just doesn't really work. Maybe we blame its lack of success to this point on Zeke, since he's been so bad at everything else he's done. But the D league isn't exactly a viable minor league either. I don't even know why he included D Leaguers in his statistics. The reality is that if we compared this to baseball, the 18 and 19 year olds that would be starting off at A ball and rarely making it past AA after their first year are the face of the franchise in the NBA, often starting from day one and definitely getting major minutes by the end of year one (and making insane money before day one). This wasn't as big of a deal back in 95 or 96 bc these young players were actually given time to develop. Only the ones that REALLY deserved it were thrust into the fire. Now that happens based more on when you were drafted and how much you're being paid than how talented you really are at the time. That's a problem.

Then on top of that, these kids feel entitled and it creates a horrible business structure throughout the league. It doesn't matter how many stats one gets or how many are still in the league vs the ones sleeping in a box now. It's about what the culture is doing to the league as a whole. And it seems like people are beating drums from one side while turning a blind eye to the other... and it doesn't work both ways.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

What would you rather a 4years collegiate with sound fundamentals thats out of the league in 4 year or a HS/1&done player with questionable fundamentals that's a solid role players for a decade.

I understand the fundmental arguements, but that's not act like there's no Ben Wallace's that stay in college and come out with no offensive game what so ever. Or you can't get a guy like Al Jefferson who came straight out of HS. That has Hakeem type post moves. Once again it totally depends on the individual and there's zero proof and IMO no reason tk believe college makes any difference.

You sure you don't have this backwards?

Between those two, 4 year collegiate with sound fundamentals will always have a role in the NBA, especially if you can play sound defense and rebound. No idea how to came to the conclusion that they'll be out the league in 4 years yet the HS/1 and done player with questionable fundamentals will be a solid role player for decades.

[da ThRONe]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

I'll say this all boils down to the fact that any kid that's exceptional great at basketball, that doesn't have a positive infrasturture at an early age will almost always struggle with maturity. This problem isn't mutually exclusive to the NBA. If they are forced to stay in school til they're 20. They'll either do enough to get by, or go play overseas.

College is not the place to expedite maturity anymore. Much similar to the NBA it's become a bottom line business. Schools will do whatever it takes to keep them on the court without a thought of them "growing" as a person. And the coaches ,who now make millions, will do with ever it takes to win. If that's being cynical oh well it's the overwhelming truth for the majority of college athletics.

[Sinner]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

Like others I agreed with this before reading and even more so after, seems like it would help NBA and college put out better basketball. As far as college obviously making these kids better is good for them, but talent would be distributed among colleges and make for many more better teams. I could be totally wrong on this and im sure someone will correct me but it seems to me since the 1 yr rule came many more "smaller" schools have been more competitive...of course your always going to have your powerhouse schools but these schools won't be restocking talent every year, instead they would be making the talent they have better "hopefully" Also many of these kids would have to think a little harder about where they want to go, instead of being like I like this school I can play here for one year they would be like I like this school but do I want to go here for a couple years?