Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

[da ThRONe]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

Not really, though. Again, it goes back to the fact that most 4-year athletes are staying for 4 years because they weren't good enough to enter the NBA in their first. The most talented players are entering because they're good enough to do so.

We haven't yet been able to see an other-things-equal scenario because nobody's been forced to stay despite draft-worthy talent.

My point was that even without any college experience guys were still having longer careers than guys staying all four years. His point was if anything he believe that the extra years of fundamentals should help guys stick around the league longer despite the talent gap. It was a quick response from both of us. I just did the numbers and presented here.

You used 3 years of HS Players and 6 years of College Players. It was flawed from the beginning.

I could pick apart the rest of that...but I'm too lazy right now so I'll do it later.

EDIT: I see where this thread is heading already so I'll just post this so I don't have to repeat the same responses again:

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...striction.html

Actually it was 4 years of high schoolers and 7 years of college seniors. Over the exact amount of time of ten years. When ever you feel like it check anything or "pick it apart". However it's all factual so I don't know whats there to disagree with.

edit: Glad you posted that link. There's far more info that proves that guys who stay longer bust more than guys that leave early or skipped college altogether.

[mKoz26]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

My point was that even without any college experience guys were still having longer careers than guys staying all four years. His point was if anything he believe that the extra years of fundamentals should help guys stick around the league longer despite the talent gap. It was a quick response from both of us. I just did the numbers and presented here.

I don't think that was Pack's point.

There's no way he believed that James Augustine would have a longer career than Dwight Howard because Augustine had 4 more years of basketball and had sound fundamentals.

His point was that equally talented players would be more likely to have a longer career after 4 years of college.

I think. I don't mean to speak for Pack.

[da ThRONe]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

What would you rather a 4years collegiate with sound fundamentals thats out of the league in 4 year or a HS/1&done player with questionable fundamentals that's a solid role players for a decade.

I understand the fundmental arguements, but that's not act like there's no Ben Wallace's that stay in college and come out with no offensive game what so ever. Or you can't get a guy like Al Jefferson who came straight out of HS. That has Hakeem type post moves. Once again it totally depends on the individual and there's zero proof and IMO no reason tk believe college makes any difference.

You sure you don't have this backwards?

Between those two, 4 year collegiate with sound fundamentals will always have a role in the NBA, especially if you can play sound defense and rebound. No idea how to came to the conclusion that they'll be out the league in 4 years yet the HS/1 and done player with questionable fundamentals will be a solid role player for decades.

I don't think that was Pack's point.

There's no way he believed that James Augustine would have a longer career than Dwight Howard because Augustine had 4 more years of basketball and had sound fundamentals.

His point was that equally talented players would be more likely to have a longer career after 4 years of college.

I think. I don't mean to speak for Pack.

Here's what was actually posted by the two of us.

[mKoz26]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

Here's what was actually posted by the two of us.

No offense, but it seems like you're building a strawman there.

His point was if anything he believe that the extra years of fundamentals should help guys stick around the league longer despite the talent gap.

But Pack said nothing about a talent gap, which is the base of your argument. Without the talent gap the HS guys you've listed aren't the players that they are. They entered out of HS because they're talented.

I feel like I'm repeating the same thing again and again.

[SuperChargers]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

No offense, but it seems like you're building a strawman there.

His point was if anything he believe that the extra years of fundamentals should help guys stick around the league longer despite the talent gap.

But Pack said nothing about a talent gap, which is the base of your argument. Without the talent gap the HS guys you've listed aren't the players that they are. They entered out of HS because they're talented.

I feel like I'm repeating the same thing again and again.

Well you've been heard by me if that means anything lol.

I totally see your point. You're saying that the HS stars would be even better if they stayed in college to learn fundamentals but because they're so talented they opt out and delay learning, whereas the far less talented players stay and build their fundamentals while lacking natural talent or athleticism. That makes the statistics harder to look at for this discussion.

Totally get where you're coming from now.

[mKoz26]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

Well you've been heard by me if that means anything lol.

I totally see your point. You're saying that the HS stars would be even better if they stayed in college to learn fundamentals but because they're so talented they opt out and delay learning, whereas the far less talented players stay and build their fundamentals while lacking natural talent or athleticism. That makes the statistics harder to look at for this discussion.

Totally get where you're coming from now.

Yes yes yes.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

[Jukeman]

Well you've been heard by me if that means anything lol.

I totally see your point. You're saying that the HS stars would be even better if they stayed in college to learn fundamentals but because they're so talented they opt out and delay learning, whereas the far less talented players stay and build their fundamentals while lacking natural talent or athleticism. That makes the statistics harder to look at for this discussion.

Totally get where you're coming from now.

Based on "what if"

He ignores the fact that back then, there were top HS players who opt to go to college even when they were ranked higher that the HS draftee.

Some of those guys even stayed 4 years and are not NBA superstars..

You really think if Kwame spent 3-4 tears in college he would be any better than he is right now as a 10 year vet?

If its a duck, then its a duck...

[mKoz26]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

Based on "what if"

He ignores the fact that back then, there were top HS players who opt to go to college even when they were ranked higher that the HS draftee.

Some of those guys even stayed 4 years and are not NBA superstars..

You really think if Kwame spent 3-4 tears in college he would be any better than he is right now as a 10 year vet?

If its a duck, then its a duck...

And NBA GMs would recognize that Kwame was not a good basketball player if he played 4 years of college. That improves the product that we see as fans.

Isn't improving the product the overall goal?

Also, who are all of these equally talented guys who went to college and became busts, and what were their draft projections? Or are you just making that statement without any evidence?

[SuperChargers]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

Well, yeah, I think college would have helped Kwame. If it didn't help he wouldn't have been drafted that high because he would be exposed. He would have had to learn and expand his game to make it, but he knew his stock was as high as it could possibly get so he opted for the draft. Who says no to getting drafted first overall with over a 1million dollar contract?

This whole discussion is gonna be full of "if"s because we can't go in the past and see how college or lack thereof would have affected their careers.

[Jukeman]

And NBA GMs would recognize that Kwame was not a good basketball player if he played 4 years of college. That improves the product that we see as fans.

Isn't improving the product the overall goal?

Also, who are all of these equally talented guys who went to college and became busts, and what were their draft projections? Or are you just making that statement without any evidence?

I gave a link already.

What is exactly wrong with the product on court beside the rules that are changing the game? The NBA is at it highest point since the 2000's which was the recovery from losing one of the best sports figures in Earth's history..

In HS, Kwame was known for rebounding and blocking shots, things he was in the NBA..Yes he average 20 a game in HS but he had no post game like he still doesnt have today as a 10 year NBA vet...

He was drafted on potential and lets not act like you need all the skills in the world to put up numbers in college. It didnt stop Thabeet from being pick #2 afterall...

As #1 pick, yes Kwame is a bust but as a NBA player, he is serviceable.

And I never said those college kids became bust..

However, not everyone can be a superstar.

[da ThRONe]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

No offense, but it seems like you're building a strawman there.

His point was if anything he believe that the extra years of fundamentals should help guys stick around the league longer despite the talent gap.

Pack said nothing about a talent gap, which is the base of your argument. Without the talent gap the HS guys you've listed aren't the players that they are. They entered out of HS because they're talented.

I feel like I'm repeating the same thing again and again.

Agree to disagree. I think in the context of the conversation it's understood he was saying that the mere fact that pro caliber player staying all four years gave those kids an advantage of being a role player over kids who leave early.

As far as you repeating yourself there's really no need. I have already said to YOU that the stats aren't conclusion. However what we do know is that it's clearly wasn't/not "hurting" the league as some suggest or that HS players aren't busting a higher rate.

[da ThRONe]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

I gave a link already.

What is exactly wrong with the product on court beside the rules that are changing the game? The NBA is at it highest point since the 2000's which was the recovery from losing one of the best sports figures in Earth's history..

In HS, Kwame was known for rebounding and blocking shots, things he was in the NBA..Yes he average 20 a game in HS but he had no post game like he still doesnt have today as a 10 year NBA vet...

He was drafted on potential and lets not act like you need all the skills in the world to put up numbers in college. It didnt stop Thabeet from being pick #2 afterall...

As #1 pick, yes Kwame is a bust but as a NBA player, he is serviceable.

And I never said those college kids became bust..

However, not everyone can be a superstar.

Seriously the league is looking at great ratings in a lockout year where people completely swore off the NBA. The league is not hurting at all. The majority of the HS players are either superstars, stars, key core players, or quality bench players. Where is all this negativity coming from with so little proof/evidence/logic?

[mKoz26]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

I gave a link already.

What is exactly wrong with the product on court beside the rules that are changing the game? The NBA is at it highest point since the 2000's which was the recovery from losing one of the best sports figures in Earth's history..

In HS, Kwame was known for rebounding and blocking shots, things he was in the NBA..Yes he average 20 a game in HS but he had no post game like he still doesnt have today as a 10 year NBA vet...

He was drafted on potential and lets not act like you need all the skills in the world to put up numbers in college. It didnt stop Thabeet from being pick #2 afterall...

As #1 pick, yes Kwame is a bust but as a NBA player, he is serviceable.

And I never said those college kids became bust..

However, not everyone can be a superstar.

Sorry but I'm done.

Clearly you're missing the point. The fact that you think the link you gave has anything to do with...

"Also, who are all of these equally talented guys who went to college and became busts, and what were their draft projections?"

...that shows that you don't really want to do any of the work in proving your point. You threw out a random, vague link that shows the draft picks of the last x years, said "check it out", and did nothing to actually analyze the individual cases of the players drafted or even the trends as they relate to talent. You also posted the top 100 prospects of every year, and again said "check it out" with no actual analysis whatsoever.

Since your opinion goes against common logic (which doesn't necessarily make it wrong), usually the idea is that you would provide statistics that account for an immeasurable variable or unexplainable trend. You haven't done that. That means we're done here. I'm not going to compile and analyze the data from your links and make your argument for you. That's your job.

[Jukeman]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

Sorry but I'm done.

Clearly you're missing the point. The fact that you think the link you gave has anything to do with...

"Also, who are all of these equally talented guys who went to college and became busts, and what were their draft projections?"

...that shows that you don't really want to do any of the work in proving your point. You threw out a random, vague link that shows the draft picks of the last x years, said "check it out", and did nothing to actually analyze the individual cases of the players drafted or even the trends as they relate to talent. You also posted the top 100 prospects of every year, and again said "check it out" with no actual analysis whatsoever.

Since your opinion goes against common logic (which doesn't necessarily make it wrong), usually the idea is that you would provide statistics that account for an immeasurable variable or unexplainable trend. You haven't done that. That means we're done here. I'm not going to compile and analyze the data from your links and make your argument for you. That's your job.

http://www.draftexpress.com/RSCI/

Maybe this is easier for you..

1998 Top 10 HS players based on RSCI (since you don't care about 11-100)

1. Al Harrington HS (25th)
2. Rashard Lewis HS (32nd)
3. Korleon Young HS (4th pick)
4. Dan Graduzric Stay 4 years in college (drafted 33 in 2002)
5. Stromile Swift Stayed 2 years in college (drafted 2nd in 2000)
6. Ronald Curry Stay 4 years in College (NFL)
7. Jaron Rush stayed 2 years in college (undrafted)
8. Joel Pryzibilla 2 years of college (picked 9th in 2000)
9. Q. Richardson 2 years in college (picked 18th in 2000)
10. Jason Capel 4 years (undrafted)

1999

1. Donnell Harvey 1 year (picked 22nd in 2000)
2. Keith Bogans 4 years (picked 43rd in 2003)
3. DeMarr Johnson 1 year (picked 6th in 2000)
4. Jay Williams 3 years (Picked 2nd in 2002)
5. Joe Forte 2 years (Picked 21st in 2001)
6. Marvin Stone 4 years (undrafted)
7. LaVell Blanchard 4 years (Undrafted)
8. Brett Nelson 4 years (undrafted)
9. Carlos Boozer 3 years (picked 34th in 2002)
10. Jonathan Bender HS (picked 5th in 1999)

2000

1. Zach Randolph 1 year (picked 19th in 2001)
2. Eddie Griffin 1 year (picked 7th in 2001)
3. Darius Miles HS (picked 3rd in 2000)
4. Gerald Wallace 1 year (picked 25th in 2001)
5. Jason Parker 1 year (injury)
6. Marcus Taylor 2 years (picked 51st in 2002)
7. DeShawn Stevenson HS (picked 23rd in 2000)
8. Chris Duhon 4 years (picked 38th in 2004)
9. Caron Butler 2 years (picked 10th in 2002)
10. Mario Austin 3 years (picked 36th in 2003)

2001

1. Eddy Curry HS (picked 4th in 2001)
2. Kevin Torbert 4 years (undrafted)
3. Dajuan Wagner 1 year (picked 6th in 2002)
4. Tyson Chandler HS (picked 2nd in 2001)
5. Ousame Cisse HS (picked 46th in 2001)
6. Kwame Brown HS (picked 1st in 2001)
7. Julius Hodge 4 years (picked 20th in 2005)
8. Diop HS (picked 8th in 2001)
9. Rick Richert 2 years (picked 55th in 2003)
10. David Lee 4 years (picked 30th in 2005)

2002

1. Amare Stoudemire HS (picked 9th in 2002)
2. Carmelo Anthony 1 year (Picked 3rd in 2003)
3. Raymond Felton 3 years (picked 5th in 2005)
4. Rashad McCants 3 years (picked 14th in 2005)
5. Lenny Cooke HS (undrafted, Juco)
6. Chris Bosh 1 year (picked 4th in 2003)
7. Jason Fraser 4 years (undrafted)
8. Paul Davis 4 years (picked 34th in 2006)
9. Shelden Williams 4 years (picked 5th in 2006)
10. Sean May 3 years (picked 13th in 2005)

[mKoz26]

Re: Steve Kerr Makes A Case for 20 Y/O Age Limit in NBA

Agree to disagree. I think in the context of the conversation it's understood he was saying that the mere fact that pro caliber player staying all four years gave those kids an advantage of being a role player over kids who leave early.

As far as you repeating yourself there's really no need. I have already said to YOU that the stats aren't conclusion. However what we do know is that it's clearly wasn't/not "hurting" the league as some suggest or that HS players aren't busting a higher rate.

Seriously the league is looking at great ratings in a lockout year where people completely swore off the NBA. The league is not hurting at all. The majority of the HS players are either superstars, stars, key core players, or quality bench players. Where is all this negativity coming from with so little proof/evidence/logic?

"If it ain't broke don't fix it" isn't really applicable in the business world. Companies need to innovate and improve to grow. The NBA is a company. If it stagnates, the product becomes worse relative to other professional sports leagues.

More basketball cannot hurt a player's growth. In some cases it might not help, but the only way it cannot hurt is by injury, which is a completely different topic. If all NBA rookies had more college experience, the game would be more polished as a whole because players would have more time to refine their games before entering the NBA. The players who didn't do that would be exposed, drafted lower (or not at all), and would receive less NBA playing time. All of those things improve the product.