Top 5 at each position

[ojandpizza]

Best list I seen yet. Only changes I would make is Rose in front of Westbrook, switch Manu with Monta Ellis, take off Blake for Z-Bo and switch Iggy with Josh Smith.

I had Zebo but took him off for Blake, I think because he beat him in the playoffs and Zebo this past season wasn't as good as the year before.. Rose would be higher on my list if he gets healthy again..I really really love Monta but I like the fact that Manu defends well, hustles, can start or come off the bench, and has 3 rings and played in the WCF this season.. Monta sure as hell can sill a stat sheet though and Manu is aging.. And I gave Josh Smith consideration, but he spends more time playing the PF than the SF and in my opinion he's always been slightly overrated.. That's just me though

[J_Posse]

I agree Harden is a good player and probably the best 6th man in the league but to say he could start for almost any team in the league is a bold statement.. He doesn't even start for his team.. Sure they like his scoring off the bench and he probably should start but HE DOESN'T.. All you see his the scoring numbers he puts up in games, you don't see what goes on off the court, or how he performs in practice, or how well he listens to his coach.. For all we know Sefalosha could be dominating him every day in practice..

Anyways my point is, there comes a point where if you're that good you start, regardless of what the other guy does or how effective you are off the bench.. For example, the Lakers wouldn't start another SG over Kobe just because they wanted more ball movement and Kobe doesn't pass much, if Harden was that much better than the guy ahead of him he would start regardless of what the team needed or that Sefalosha is a little better on D.. Therefor to me he's isn't a top 5 SG

Uh, Ginobili has split time between being a starter and sixth man. Do seriously believe that George Hill, Roger Mason Jr. and Keith Bogans have ever been better players than Ginobili?

Come on, man. Coaches don't always play their best 5 players in the starting line-up. Sometimes they want a guy like Danny Green or Sefolosha to start because they provide defense and (some) three-point shooting. Harden and Ginobili bring play-making and scoring in otherwise mediocre benches, although the Spurs reserves are better.

That Kobe Bryant comparison is completely silly since the Lakers have absolutely no other SGs on the roster. Not every team and coach can place a quality player like Harden and Ginobili on the bench and get away with it.

From Spurs Nation/Bills Backer Clubhouse

[ojandpizza]

Uh, Ginobili has split time between being a starter and sixth man. Do seriously believe that George Hill, Roger Mason Jr. and Keith Bogans have ever been better players than Ginobili?

Come on, man. Coaches don't always play their best 5 players in the starting line-up. Sometimes they want a guy like Danny Green or Sefolosha to start because they provide defense and (some) three-point shooting. Harden and Ginobili bring play-making and scoring in otherwise mediocre benches, although the Spurs reserves are better.

That Kobe Bryant comparison is completely silly since the Lakers have absolutely no other SGs on the roster. Not every team and coach can place a quality player like Harden and Ginobili on the bench and get away with it.

From Spurs Nation/Bills Backer Clubhouse

I have Ginobili in my top 5, I never said he didn't spend time as a 6th man, I actually took note of him doing so a couple posts up if you go back and look.. However Ginobili doesn't mind a 6th man role and in most cases starts as many games as he doesn't.. Harden wants to be a starter and still isn't.. You said my Kobe argument is silly because the Lakers have no other SGs on the roster.. Why do you think that is? Management knows he's a top SG in the league, they don't worry about needing another SG.. I believe the Thunder have 2 other SGs, both have spent some time starting over Harden.. Ginobili has more hustle and grit in his pinky toe than Harden does in his whole body, and plays way better defense, don't compare his role to that of Hardens.. Also Ginobili is a dinosaur and needs limited minutes, Harden is still a young pup..

either way there comes a point where you're either THAT good or you aren't, he obviously isn't THAT much better or he would be the starter, plain and simple, he didn't even start the NBA finals for crying out loud.. That's when your top 5 guys need pretty much all the minutes.. You see that from every other player at every other position in those top 5 lists but him.. I agree he'd a great scorer, hell he's my favorite player on that team, but if he was as good as everybody here wants to say he is he would be the starting SG.. Also you named Ginobili which is the only thing that's even close to an exception to my point above, if it's such a luxury to have your best player at that position not start why do all the other 28 teams in the league not do it as well???.. The Heat would never say "we need a little more defense let's start Battier, Wade will still give us 20+ off the bench" they wouldn't do that because there is such a huge gap between Wade and Battier, Wade is THAT good, Harden isn't there yet..

[DIESEL]

Re: Top 5 at each position

@DukeC


All i'm trying to get across in this thread is that NBA stats are very deceiving. Especially for players on losing teams. According to those who have made a list here it appears Kevin Love is the de facto best PF in the NBA. If you questioned someone on why he's the best it's very likely they will tell you"Just look at his stats!"

His stats are great. He is a very good player. But in 4 seasons he's played on 1 really bad team, 2 atrocious teams, and this year they improved to just plain bad.

How's this stat line for a PF? 24 ppg 10.8 rebs .518 fg%
Pretty nice huh? That's a top 5 NBA PF right?

Well that was Chris Bosh in his last season with the Raptors. His name is nowhere to be found these days in this thread. Has he gotten worse? Are his skills declining? Or is he now on a team that realizes he is not a franchise player, but a great 2nd option, and the damned best 3rd option in the league? The thing is if Bosh got traded to the Bobcats today he'd be back to averaging a meaningless 24 and 11 and would once again be a "top 5 PF".

So until the K. Loves, Cousins, and the David Lee's of the world put up these nice numbers on playoff teams, they will get an honorable mention from me.

In the NBA the great players win games, the good players get stats.

[ojandpizza]

I understand where you are coming from with your Bosh argument but you can't penalize Love for not having great teammates.. You act like it's his fault or something.. We wouldn't be faulting Karl Malone or Charles Barkley for always being a first and never a second or 3rd option so why penalize Love? He's more than likely never going to play with a Kobe, LeBron, Dwight, or somebody who is going to outplay him.. It's not like he's a solid 20-10 guy, he's a franchise playing 24-13 or whatever it was guy..

[DukeC]

Re: Top 5 at each position

@DukeC


All i'm trying to get across in this thread is that NBA stats are very deceiving. Especially for players on losing teams. According to those who have made a list here it appears Kevin Love is the de facto best PF in the NBA. If you questioned someone on why he's the best it's very likely they will tell you"Just look at his stats!"

His stats are great. He is a very good player. But in 4 seasons he's played on 1 really bad team, 2 atrocious teams, and this year they improved to just plain bad.

How's this stat line for a PF? 24 ppg 10.8 rebs .518 fg%
Pretty nice huh? That's a top 5 NBA PF right?

Well that was Chris Bosh in his last season with the Raptors. His name is nowhere to be found these days in this thread. Has he gotten worse? Are his skills declining? Or is he now on a team that realizes he is not a franchise player, but a great 2nd option, and the damned best 3rd option in the league? The thing is if Bosh got traded to the Bobcats today he'd be back to averaging a meaningless 24 and 11 and would once again be a "top 5 PF".

So until the K. Loves, Cousins, and the David Lee's of the world put up these nice numbers on playoff teams, they will get an honorable mention from me.

In the NBA the great players win games, the good players get stats.

Chris Bosh is still a Top 5 PF. He's not mentioned anymore because the 2nd best Shooting Guard in the league and the best Small Forward in the league are taking his touches.

And to me, yeah, it would have to be Love because Aldridge is on an equally terrible team yet is not putting up the numbers K-Love has. You don't do this unless you are VERY VERY GOOD.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ThWUeISMAoM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Is he a bad defender? At this point in his career? Yes. Can he become adequate? I think so, but he'll never be good because he's a total non-athelete. Slow feet, slow hands, slow everything. Good and great defenders are great athletes, which Love will never be.

Yes, and I just dissproved the notion that great players always play on great teams. It's hard to win games when you don't have a quality Point Guard, or at least another dominant scorer on your team. Before this year, Love had NEITHER. He has a point guard in Rubio, but he got injured halfway through the season.

Aldridge has never played with a decent PG in his professional career. David Lee has one, but his ankles keep getting broken, preventing him from playing any significant amount of time.

The argument that you have to be on a winning TEAM, to be considered a great PLAYER is utter nonsense. Does it help you get recognized more if your team wins? Yes. Does it change your perceived talent level? No, which is what you seem to be arguing and what I can't get behind.

[DIESEL]

Re: Top 5 at each position

The argument that you have to be on a winning TEAM, to be considered a great PLAYER is utter nonsense. Does it help you get recognized more if your team wins? Yes. Does it change your perceived talent level? No, which is what you seem to be arguing and what I can't get behind.

Has there ever been a Hall of Fame player that went his entire career without EVER making the playoffs?

That's where Love is NOW. I'm sure he'll win plenty of playoff games in the future but I'm talking about today. I never said great players always play on great teams. But usually great players can make the playoffs. To date the best PF in the league hasn't even come close.

On your side I'm not supposed to penalize him for playing with garbage. On my side I'm saying the stats that make him the premier PF are inflated because he IS playing with garbage.

I believe once he gets some more talent around him the W's will go up and his stats will go down. Now if he can maintain those numbers while the team is winning I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong.

[iAM-IncReDiBLe-]

@DukeC


All i'm trying to get across in this thread is that NBA stats are very deceiving. Especially for players on losing teams. According to those who have made a list here it appears Kevin Love is the de facto best PF in the NBA. If you questioned someone on why he's the best it's very likely they will tell you"Just look at his stats!"

His stats are great. He is a very good player. But in 4 seasons he's played on 1 really bad team, 2 atrocious teams, and this year they improved to just plain bad.

How's this stat line for a PF? 24 ppg 10.8 rebs .518 fg%
Pretty nice huh? That's a top 5 NBA PF right?

Well that was Chris Bosh in his last season with the Raptors. His name is nowhere to be found these days in this thread. Has he gotten worse? Are his skills declining? Or is he now on a team that realizes he is not a franchise player, but a great 2nd option, and the damned best 3rd option in the league? The thing is if Bosh got traded to the Bobcats today he'd be back to averaging a meaningless 24 and 11 and would once again be a "top 5 PF".

So until the K. Loves, Cousins, and the David Lee's of the world put up these nice numbers on playoff teams, they will get an honorable mention from me.

In the NBA the great players win games, the good players get stats.

If Bosh got his touches an didn't have to play behind two of possibly the top 5 players in the league he would easily go back to his Toronto numbers.

[ojandpizza]

The difference to me is Love isn't your typical star.. He's not like a Cousins who has all the talent and potential in the world but lacks in his attitude and work ethic.. Love works his butt off to be how good he is. Players that have that kind of drive and desire always succeed in any sport. While he lacks athleticism he has excellent shooting touch and passing ability for a big man, something that will translate over to any team or player he will ever play with.

Let me ask this, most people considered Bynum the #2 Center on their lists. His stats alone are pretty good, they aren't necessarily great, and he has the luxury of playing on a really good team. However he relies so much on his size and has a terrible attitude and almost no drive to improve his game (especially after turning down advice from Kareem)... How well would Bynum do on a team with terrible talent? Would his numbers go up? I really don't think so.. If Bynum played for a bad NBA team where he was the only superstar he would face constant double teams, switches, and any kind of tricks teams could use.. Much like guarding a Dwight or Shaq.. Teams can't do that to him now, you can't double off and leave Gasol down low, or run a double at him or switches and risk losing sight of Kobe..I just don't think the argument always works, there is exceptions, and I think Love is an exception.

[JazzMan]

Re: Top 5 at each position

I'm going top 5 next year
PG:
1. Rajon Rondo
2. Deron Williams
3. Ty Lawson
4. Chris Paul
5. Tony Parker/Steve Nash

SG:
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Monta Ellis
3. Dwayne Wade (Oh I hate him so much...)
4. Manu Ginobili
5. Demar Derozan (Going to have a monster year)

SF:
1. LeBron (...)
2. Kevin Durant
3. Andre Iguodala
4. Melo
5. Rudy Gay

PF:
1. Kevin Love
2. Lamarcus Aldridge
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Josh Smith
5. Zach Randolph

C:
1. Dwight Howard
2. Al Jefferson
3. Andrew Bynum
4. Demarcus Cousins
5. Andrew Bogut

[JazzMan]

Re: Top 5 at each position

@DukeC


All i'm trying to get across in this thread is that NBA stats are very deceiving. Especially for players on losing teams. According to those who have made a list here it appears Kevin Love is the de facto best PF in the NBA. If you questioned someone on why he's the best it's very likely they will tell you"Just look at his stats!"

His stats are great. He is a very good player. But in 4 seasons he's played on 1 really bad team, 2 atrocious teams, and this year they improved to just plain bad.

How's this stat line for a PF? 24 ppg 10.8 rebs .518 fg%
Pretty nice huh? That's a top 5 NBA PF right?

Well that was Chris Bosh in his last season with the Raptors. His name is nowhere to be found these days in this thread. Has he gotten worse? Are his skills declining? Or is he now on a team that realizes he is not a franchise player, but a great 2nd option, and the damned best 3rd option in the league? The thing is if Bosh got traded to the Bobcats today he'd be back to averaging a meaningless 24 and 11 and would once again be a "top 5 PF".

So until the K. Loves, Cousins, and the David Lee's of the world put up these nice numbers on playoff teams, they will get an honorable mention from me.

In the NBA the great players win games, the good players get stats.

So what you're saying is, Kevin Love isn't a great player? Ok. Well it's not like he goes out every night, out rebounds all the other great bigs in the league, and still has enough energy to carry his team to a possible win. With the addition of Rubio and Roy, K-Love will become an even better player.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Top 5 at each position

Answer to Pack's question, Manu Ginobili was a super sub his rookie season and made the all-star team twice as a starter. Harden has a chance to equal or best that, obviously.

That didn't really answer my question lol.

[BringTheHeat]

Re: Top 5 at each position

While we're at it..

1. Doc Rivers
2. Gregg Poppovich
3. George Karl
4. Rick Carlisle
5. Tom Thibodeau

[ojandpizza]

Obviously if you were to start an expansion team and it came down to choosing Harden or Ginobili for your team you should pick Harden. He's young and has tons of potential there's no denying that, while Ginobili is older and on the backside of his career.. However since the way I understand it we're picking these players based on current NBA basketball. So if I was told I was picking a team for just one season and it came down to Harden or Ginobili, I take Ginobili. He's the better player RIGHT NOW, and from what I can tell that's what this whole thread is supposed to be about.

[ojandpizza]

While we're at it..

1. Doc Rivers
2. Gregg Poppovich
3. George Karl
4. Rick Carlisle
5. Tom Thibodeau

No way is Pop not number 1 IMO and I don't even like the Spurs lol