Top 5 at each position

[iLLosophy]

Re: Top 5 at each position

No way is Pop not number 1 IMO and I don't even like the Spurs lol

I know it's only a small portion of their career, but for coach of the year, pop never adjusted to scott brooks putting Thabo on Parker was kind of a head scratcher. Meanwhile Doc rivers getting the C's as far as they got with 1/3 of their roster injured or limping (and the turmoil that was apparently happening with Allen/Rondo) to me is a lot more impressive.

[ojandpizza]

I know it's only a small portion of their career, but for coach of the year, pop never adjusted to scott brooks putting Thabo on Parker was kind of a head scratcher. Meanwhile Doc rivers getting the C's as far as they got with 1/3 of their roster injured or limping (and the turmoil that was apparently happening with Allen/Rondo) to me is a lot more impressive.

Ohh yeah I was looking at it as an overall career list.. I understand where you're coming from.. For me, judging by this past season I like Frank Vogel from the Pacers.. They showed me a lot this season, I hope they continue to improve!

[stlpimpmonsta]

Re: Top 5 at each position

I know it's only a small portion of their career, but for coach of the year, pop never adjusted to scott brooks putting Thabo on Parker was kind of a head scratcher. Meanwhile Doc rivers getting the C's as far as they got with 1/3 of their roster injured or limping (and the turmoil that was apparently happening with Allen/Rondo) to me is a lot more impressive.

how could he adjust...make tp taller? Sometimes you cant make adjustments and you just have to roll with it.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Top 5 at each position

I won't be making a generic list, since most just focus on the order of the players and not the substance of the reasoning. I will evaluate where each player is currently at with their respective games.

PG
-Rajon Rondo is a jet-setter, can run an offense, and deflect careless passes. Jump shooting remains a major problem.
-Chris Paul is an outstanding passer, handler, and jump shooter. To limit his genius, teams force him left and attack his mediocre defense.
-Russell Westbrook's jet-speed makes him a point machine. Will he ever learn how to avoid forced shots, wayward passes and over-penetrations?
-Derrick Rose can pierce any defense with his speedy and powerful penetrations. He must cut down on his forced shots, over-penetrations, and foolish passes.
-Deron Williams can post, penetrate, pull, and orchestrate an offense. Though he'll never be a jet, he must limit his careless passes.
-Steve Nash is still tricky and a dead-on shooter. But he's lost a step and his defense is absymal.
-Andre Miller's court vison and deliveries are outstanding. His shots have always been flat and he can't guard anybody.
-Tony Parker is unstoppable in a broken field and is among the best finishers in the game. His jumpers have always been erratic.

SG
-Kobe Bryant is still an incredibly dynamic scorer. Due to wear and tear, his perimeter shooting has become erratic.
-Dwyane Wade's quick and power penetrations are irresistible. Has never been a reliable perimeter shooter.
-Manu Ginobli's lefty penetrations set up his perimeter jumpers. He looks for steals to compensate for his below average man to man defense.
-James Harden is a tricky and powerful lefty driver. Did he exhibit early signs of choke-itis in the Finals?
-Joe Johnson is still a tricky one on one scorer. Too bad he beats the ball to death and makes spectators of all his teammates.
-Monte Ellis can light up the scoreboard from near and far. His problems are defense and off-ball play.
-Eric Gordon is a big-time shooter. He has some difficulty creating his own shots.

SF
-LeBron James can always blast his way to the basket and blow up a game. He must improve his perimeter and free throw shooting, and also cut down on his ball-massaging.
-Kevin Durant is a swift penetrator and lethal shooter from near or far. He lacks strength and must start playing a Rip Hamilton or Ray Allen style off-ball game.
-Carmelo Anthony is simply the most versatile one on one scorer in the game. His huge downside includes sticky fingers and zero defense.
-Paul Pierce can bang line-drive jumpers and power to the cup. Due to age, Pierce no longer has that lightning quick first step.
-Rudy Gay is a swift penetrator. A total gambler on defense and an abysmal passer.
-Andre Iguodala is a first rate defender and an admirable passer/creator. An erratic pull-up and perimeter game keeps him out of the ultimate winner's circle.
-Luol Deng can pull-up with impressive accuracy and attack the basket with long-legged drives. A stellar defender. Unfortunately, his game is a bit erratic.
-Danny Granger is a dangerous streak shooter. His major weaknesses include a too-high handle, erratic pass-work, and pitiful defense.

PF
-Pau Gasol remains the smartest and most skilled big man in the game. He can be bullied in the paint and he is severely restricted by Mike Brown's myopic schemes.
-Dirk Nowitzki is still a potent scorer equipped with unguardable shot-releases. Due to the ravages of age, Nowitzki is much slower in every aspect of the game.
-Tim Duncan can score from the low or high post, rotate, and rebound. He does all that well, but not nearly at the level he used to.
-LaMarcus Aldridge has mastered the turnaround jumper and can run like a guard. But finesse players usually can't carry their team in the endgame.
-David West is a bear in the post and a dead-eye from mid-range. Defense has never been his thing.
-Kevin Love is an ace spot-shooter and a vacuum rebounder. His atrocious defense is very costly.
-Chris Bosh can move like a guard and is a dead-on shooter. Inferior rebounding and defense, plus a total reliance on finesse makes him a third-tier star.
-Zach Randolph can muscle in the low post and has a feathery touch from mid-range. He can't defend his lunch and takes way too long to make his moves.
-Blake Griffin is the most dramatic dunker in the league off screen/rolls. He must improve his pitiful field goal and free throw shooting, refine his crude post moves, and learn how to play a modicum of defense.
- When he's engaged, Josh Smith can do a bit of everything, drive left, rebound, pass, handle, and block shots. He can also force shots, get lost on weak-side defense, force his handle into crowds, and generally be a no-show. A brain transplant is the only thing that can save this guy.

C
-Dwight Howard attacks the basket, blocks shots, and dominates the boards. He can't pass or defend straight up. Doesn't meet entry passes, brings the ball down too low, can't shoot from anywhere, and sells out his defensive position for blocks.
-Andrew Bynum scores on reverse moves. He is frequently confused on defense and once his feet are crowded he is discombobulated.
-Kevin Garnett is a jump-shooter and energetic team defender. His drawbacks include an over-reliance on finesse and routine choke-artistry.
-Tyson Chandler blocks shots, moves like a guard, and grabs long-armed rebounds. He can't score unless he's dunking off screen/rolls and his man to man defense is only average.
-Al Horford is scrappy in the post and an accurate shooter. Really, he is playing out of position. He doesn't have much of a left hand and he is frequently overwhelmed by the biggest of bigs.
-Roy Hibbert can convert stiff-armed hooks and pass. Position defense, crowd-rebounding, and smooth movement is not featured in his game.
-Marc Gasol is strong and can make sweeping hooks and feathery jumpers. Slowness afoot seriously plagues his game on both ends.
-Al Jefferson scores with various hooks in the low post. Defense, passing, and getting to the foul line is what he can't do.
-DeMarcus Cousins shows good footwork and a nice touch in the low post. He must improve his jumper, defensive position, and attitude.
-Marcin Gortat can run and shoot from mid-range. He is an awful passer and doesn't give help against weak-side screens.

[chance]

Re: Top 5 at each position

I'm going top 5 next year
PG:
1. Rajon Rondo
2. Deron Williams
3. Ty Lawson
4. Chris Paul
5. Tony Parker/Steve Nash

SG:
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Monta Ellis
3. Dwayne Wade (Oh I hate him so much...)
4. Manu Ginobili
5. Demar Derozan (Going to have a monster year)

SF:
1. LeBron (...)
2. Kevin Durant
3. Andre Iguodala
4. Melo
5. Rudy Gay

PF:
1. Kevin Love
2. Lamarcus Aldridge
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Josh Smith
5. Zach Randolph

C:
1. Dwight Howard
2. Al Jefferson
3. Andrew Bynum
4. Demarcus Cousins
5. Andrew Bogut

Hold on.... what??

[iLLosophy]

Re: Top 5 at each position

PG
-Chris Paul is an outstanding passer, handler, and jump shooter. To limit his genius, teams force him left and attack his mediocre defense.

There are a few places where I didn't agree with you, but I could let most of them slide - but this I had to comment on

If Chris Paul's defense is mediocre, who do you consider great? Outside of Rondo & Rose, he's better than everyone else you listed under PG.

[J_Posse]

Re: Top 5 at each position

There are a few places where I didn't agree with you, but I could let most of them slide - but this I had to comment on

If Chris Paul's defense is mediocre, who do you consider great? Outside of Rondo & Rose, he's better than everyone else you listed under PG.

Man, Chris Paul is a tremendous player, but his one-on-one defense is actually below-average. He lacks size to fight through screens or defend against being posted up. Of course, he compensates for all of that by creating havoc in the passing lanes and being the best on-ball thief in the league. AlexBrady has most all of those players broken down perfectly, but where is the Tim Duncan scouting report?

[J_Posse]

Re: Top 5 at each position

I have Ginobili in my top 5, I never said he didn't spend time as a 6th man, I actually took note of him doing so a couple posts up if you go back and look.. However Ginobili doesn't mind a 6th man role and in most cases starts as many games as he doesn't.. Harden wants to be a starter and still isn't.. You said my Kobe argument is silly because the Lakers have no other SGs on the roster.. Why do you think that is? Management knows he's a top SG in the league, they don't worry about needing another SG.. I believe the Thunder have 2 other SGs, both have spent some time starting over Harden.. Ginobili has more hustle and grit in his pinky toe than Harden does in his whole body, and plays way better defense, don't compare his role to that of Hardens.. Also Ginobili is a dinosaur and needs limited minutes, Harden is still a young pup..

either way there comes a point where you're either THAT good or you aren't, he obviously isn't THAT much better or he would be the starter, plain and simple, he didn't even start the NBA finals for crying out loud.. That's when your top 5 guys need pretty much all the minutes.. You see that from every other player at every other position in those top 5 lists but him.. I agree he'd a great scorer, hell he's my favorite player on that team, but if he was as good as everybody here wants to say he is he would be the starting SG.. Also you named Ginobili which is the only thing that's even close to an exception to my point above, if it's such a luxury to have your best player at that position not start why do all the other 28 teams in the league not do it as well???.. The Heat would never say "we need a little more defense let's start Battier, Wade will still give us 20+ off the bench" they wouldn't do that because there is such a huge gap between Wade and Battier, Wade is THAT good, Harden isn't there yet..

Dude, I'm going to let you have your opinion and I'll continue to have mine. I seriously doubt that anyone else believes that Sefolosha is a superior overall player than Harden. Harden players starter minutes off the bench (31.4), while Sefolosha (21.8) - the team's best perimeter defender - starts and defends the opposing team's best perimeter scorer (Tony Parker, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James and such). He's the closest thing to Bruce Bowen in the current league, but his measly 4.8 points, 3 rebounds and 1 assist per game while starting makes him better than Harden????

[JazzMan]

Re: Top 5 at each position

Hold on.... what??

Is there a problem here?

[NINJAK2]

Re: Top 5 at each position

Yeah at least Iggy knows how to play defense.

Melo knows how to play defense he just chooses not to do so 89-99% of the time.

[ojandpizza]

Dude, I'm going to let you have your opinion and I'll continue to have mine. I seriously doubt that anyone else believes that Sefolosha is a superior overall player than Harden. Harden players starter minutes off the bench (31.4), while Sefolosha (21.8) - the team's best perimeter defender - starts and defends the opposing team's best perimeter scorer (Tony Parker, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James and such). He's the closest thing to Bruce Bowen in the current league, but his measly 4.8 points, 3 rebounds and 1 assist per game while starting makes him better than Harden????

Well if you could read you would know that I never said Sefolosha was better than Harden anywhere in this thread.

[ojandpizza]

I won't be making a generic list, since most just focus on the order of the players and not the substance of the reasoning. I will evaluate where each player is currently at with their respective games.

PG
-Rajon Rondo is a jet-setter, can run an offense, and deflect careless passes. Jump shooting remains a major problem.
-Chris Paul is an outstanding passer, handler, and jump shooter. To limit his genius, teams force him left and attack his mediocre defense.
-Russell Westbrook's jet-speed makes him a point machine. Will he ever learn how to avoid forced shots, wayward passes and over-penetrations?
-Derrick Rose can pierce any defense with his speedy and powerful penetrations. He must cut down on his forced shots, over-penetrations, and foolish passes.
-Deron Williams can post, penetrate, pull, and orchestrate an offense. Though he'll never be a jet, he must limit his careless passes.
-Steve Nash is still tricky and a dead-on shooter. But he's lost a step and his defense is absymal.
-Andre Miller's court vison and deliveries are outstanding. His shots have always been flat and he can't guard anybody.
-Tony Parker is unstoppable in a broken field and is among the best finishers in the game. His jumpers have always been erratic.

SG
-Kobe Bryant is still an incredibly dynamic scorer. Due to wear and tear, his perimeter shooting has become erratic.
-Dwyane Wade's quick and power penetrations are irresistible. Has never been a reliable perimeter shooter.
-Manu Ginobli's lefty penetrations set up his perimeter jumpers. He looks for steals to compensate for his below average man to man defense.
-James Harden is a tricky and powerful lefty driver. Did he exhibit early signs of choke-itis in the Finals?
-Joe Johnson is still a tricky one on one scorer. Too bad he beats the ball to death and makes spectators of all his teammates.
-Monte Ellis can light up the scoreboard from near and far. His problems are defense and off-ball play.
-Eric Gordon is a big-time shooter. He has some difficulty creating his own shots.

SF
-LeBron James can always blast his way to the basket and blow up a game. He must improve his perimeter and free throw shooting, and also cut down on his ball-massaging.
-Kevin Durant is a swift penetrator and lethal shooter from near or far. He lacks strength and must start playing a Rip Hamilton or Ray Allen style off-ball game.
-Carmelo Anthony is simply the most versatile one on one scorer in the game. His huge downside includes sticky fingers and zero defense.
-Paul Pierce can bang line-drive jumpers and power to the cup. Due to age, Pierce no longer has that lightning quick first step.
-Rudy Gay is a swift penetrator. A total gambler on defense and an abysmal passer.
-Andre Iguodala is a first rate defender and an admirable passer/creator. An erratic pull-up and perimeter game keeps him out of the ultimate winner's circle.
-Luol Deng can pull-up with impressive accuracy and attack the basket with long-legged drives. A stellar defender. Unfortunately, his game is a bit erratic.
-Danny Granger is a dangerous streak shooter. His major weaknesses include a too-high handle, erratic pass-work, and pitiful defense.

PF
-Pau Gasol remains the smartest and most skilled big man in the game. He can be bullied in the paint and he is severely restricted by Mike Brown's myopic schemes.
-Dirk Nowitzki is still a potent scorer equipped with unguardable shot- releases. Due to the ravages of age, Nowitzki is much slower in every aspect of the game.
-LaMarcus Aldridge has mastered the turnaround jumper can run like a guard. But finesse players usually can't carry their team in the endgame.
-David West is a bear in the post and a dead-eye from mid-range. Defense has never been his thing.
-Kevin Love is an ace spot-shooter and a vacuum rebounder. His atrocious defense is very costly.
-Chris Bosh can move like a guard and is a dead-on shooter. Inferior rebounding and defense, plus a total reliance on finesse makes him a third-tier star.
-Zach Randolph can muscle in the low post and has a feathery touch from mid-range. He can't defend his lunch and takes way too long to make his moves.
-Blake Griffin is the most dramatic dunker in the league off screen/rolls. He must improve his pitiful field goal and free throw shooting, refine his crude post moves, and learn how to play a modicum of defense.
- When he's engaged, Josh Smith can do a bit everything, drive left, rebound, pass, handle, and block shots. He can also force shots, get lost on weak-side defense, force his handle into crowds, and generally be a no-show. A brain transplant is the only thing that can save this guy.

C
-Dwight Howard attacks the basket, blocks shots, and dominates the boards. He can't pass or defend straight up. Doesn't meet entry passes, brings the ball down too low, can't shoot from anywhere, and sells out his defensive position for blocks.
-Andrew Bynum scores on reverse moves. He is frequently confused on defense and once his feet are crowded he is discombobulated.
-Kevin Garnett is a jump-shooter and energetic team defender. His drawbacks include an over-reliance on finesse and routine choke-artistry.
-Tyson Chandler blocks shots, moves like a guard, and grabs long-armed rebounds. He can't score unless he's dunking off screen/rolls and his man to man defense is only average.
-Al Horford is scrappy in the post and an accurate shooter. Really, he is playing out of position. He doesn't have much of a left hand and he is frequently overwhelmed by the biggest of bigs.
-Roy Hibbert can convert stiff-armed hooks and pass. Position defense, crowd-rebounding, and smooth movement is not featured in his game.
-Marc Gasol is strong and can make sweeping hooks and feathery jumpers. Slowness afoot seriously plagues his game on both ends.
-Al Jefferson scores with various hooks in the low post. Defense, passing, and getting to the foul line is what he can't do.
-DeMarcus Cousins shows good footwork and a nice touch in the low post. He must improve his jumper, defensive position, and attitude.
-Marcin Gortat can run and shoot from mid-range. He is an awful passer and doesn't give help against weak-side screens.

You said LeBron needs to cut down on his "ball massaging" and failed to say anything of that sort about Wade or Kobe who are arguably the worst in the league at doing so.. Since LeBron is arguably the best offensive player and possible play maker in the entire league I don't think any coach would ever have a problem with him "massaging" the ball.. Maybe you missed this playoffs this year lol

[iLLosophy]

Re: Top 5 at each position

Man, Chris Paul is a tremendous player, but his one-on-one defense is actually below-average. He lacks size to fight through screens or defend against being posted up. Of course, he compensates for all of that by creating havoc in the passing lanes and being the best on-ball thief in the league. AlexBrady has most all of those players broken down perfectly, but where is the Tim Duncan scouting report?

Posted up part I will give you. But there aren't any PG's that are great at fighting through screens/picks, there are "Teams" that are great at guarding Screens/Pick n roll. This comes with a defensive minded coach, and and multiple years of experience playing with the same players. I guarantee any PG you think is "good" off screens/picks has been playing with the same core group of players/coaches for multiple years, and their coaching staff is highly acclaimed for being defensive focused.

[iAM-IncReDiBLe-]

Chris Paul is a horrible one on one defender imo, but he does a good job of getting steals.

[ojandpizza]

Chris Paul is a horrible one on one defender imo, but he does a good job of getting steals.

Yeah, I hate when people look at stats for defensive purposes (not saying anybody here did that).. But you see lots of guys who aren't really that great at defense end up with pretty decent steals numbers..