Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

[TheLetterZ]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

There's something else I want to add.

A few of you have been going on and on about how Miami's such an attractive destination for free agents.

Really? Since when?

As I said, the Heat got LeBron and Bosh due to having a star they drafted, whothose guys wanted to play with, and also by making smart personnel decisions over the last several years to ensure that they'd have enough money to sign those guys.

Before LeBron, who was the last major free agent to sign with Miami?

Shaq was traded there. Before him, Mourning was dealt there. Both because their previous teams were desperate to get rid of them.

Tim Hardaway? Also traded to Miami.

Payton was just about washed up when he signed there.

Who? Who have the Heat EVER signed in free agency, or acquired in a sign-and-trade or something similar because the star wanted to play in Miami?

Some of you are trying to make it out like the Heat have always been a powerhouse and a big time player for getting superstars to want to play there.

It's fiction.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

I mean, the Bucks have had a winning record 60% of the time since the late 70's, and even recently, most experts thought the Bucks and Bulls were going to battle for the division before the Bucks entire team got injured. Even then, they've been just outside of the playoffs basically every year when they haven't made the playoffs.

Yeah, they haven't really landed a legit franchise player, but they've been a competitive team basically every year.

Define recently.

But look at them now? Haven't they all (except for the Wizards...who are not a traditional large market team in terms of lifestyle. I would switch them with Miami) acquired big name FA's and talent despite being terrible in the front office for years and years.

That's the problem.

The margin of error for small market teams are razor thin while large market teams repeatedly can make the same mistakes but still get players and agents colluding to want to play there. When Cleveland, Orlando, or New Orleans makes a front office mistake, it gives their stars excuses to jump ship. When the Knicks, Nets, and Lakers make a front office mistake they seem to target a big name FA and leverage small market teams to accept 30 cents on the dollar for them.

What big name FA have we acquired again?

Remind me when Chris Paul and Deron Williams demanded to go to the Clippers and Nets......

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Define recently.

The season after the Fear the Deer thing came back, a lot of people thought the Bucks and Bulls would be competing for the division title.

[Rocky]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

Please. The first list Chris Paul put out was New York, Orlando, and Portland.

Dwight Howard narrowed his list to one team this summer, before he was traded. That team? The Brooklyn Nets

Chris Paul was considering Portland and Orlando, two teams who are among the NBA's worst right now.

The main team used for leverage there was the Knicks and I think you know that. And again why didn't any of these stars end up colluding in Portland, Orlando, or Indiana? Portland and Indiana had cap room to sign Paul and good young talent, why didn't Paul say I only want to play there? You can say what you want but it hasn't happened and the majority of the league's stars play in LA, New York, and Miami. That's just a fact and it's not due to some astute front office decisions by the Clippers and Knicks (of all teams).

Yes, some teams have an advantage, but every sport is like that. It's basic human psychology and money.

When's the last time the Pittsburgh Pirates, Arizona Cardinals, or Columbus Blue Jackets signed a major free agent?

Guys want to play for teams they think they can win a title with. They've been trying to do that in every sport since the beginning of free agency 45 years ago.

So the Knicks, Clippers, and Nets are now teams that exude a championship mentality? The Clippers and Knicks were the laughing stock of the NBA for a long time. They're in that position because of their market size and the perks that come with that.

Look at the freaking Heat. They went 15-67 in 2008. Two years later, they have LeBron and Bosh. How'd they pull that off? They were able to offer those guys money through smart personnel decisions for years, and someone to play with (Wade) whom they drafted

You make it seem like the Heat made Lebron and Bosh an offer they couldn't refuse. They all took less money to play in Miami. They may have all wanted to win together, but it's no coincidence that they all ended up in one of the most attractive places (as far as taxes, weather, and nightlife) in the US. Again, Lebron's list included New York, Chicago, Dallas, Brooklyn, and Clevaland.

And you are wrong on Alonzo Mourning. What he did to Charlotte was absolutely leverage in the same vein that these superstars do today. I was a Hornets fan at the time and basically what he did was use the fact that Charlotte was a small market to jack up his price and try to get an obscene amount of money from the front office (also because he hated LJ as well). Shinn didn't want to pay Zo and he got traded to a "preferred destination". The fact that the Hornets would be desperate to get rid of the best player that has ever played in Charlotte was/and is ridiculous.

[TheLetterZ]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

The main team used for leverage there was the Knicks and I think you know that. And again why didn't any of these stars end up colluding in Portland, Orlando, or Indiana? Portland and Indiana had cap room to sign Paul and good young talent, why didn't Paul say I only want to play there? You can say what you want but it hasn't happened and the majority of the league's stars play in LA, New York, and Miami. That's just a fact and it's not due to some astute front office decisions by the Clippers and Knicks (of all teams).




So the Knicks, Clippers, and Nets are now teams that exude a championship mentality? The Clippers and Knicks were the laughing stock of the NBA for a long time. They're in that position because of their market size and the perks that come with that.



You make it seem like the Heat made Lebron and Bosh an offer they couldn't refuse. They all took less money to play in Miami. They may have all wanted to win together, but it's no coincidence that they all ended up in one of the most attractive places (as far as taxes, weather, and nightlife) in the US. Again, Lebron's list included New York, Chicago, Dallas, Brooklyn, and Clevaland.

And you are wrong on Alonzo Mourning. What he did to Charlotte was absolutely leverage in the same vein that these superstars do today. I was a Hornets fan at the time and basically what he did was use the fact that Charlotte was a small market to jack up his price and try to get an obscene amount of money from the front office (also because he hated LJ as well). Shinn didn't want to pay Zo and he got traded to a "preferred destination". The fact that the Hornets would be desperate to get rid of the best player that has ever played in Charlotte was/and is ridiculous.

Yes, Mourning leveraged his way out of Charlotte, but he didn't demand to play for Miami.

No one has. You keep talking as if Miami has this long tradition of being an attractive destination for stars, and it simply isn't true.

And no, I didn't say that the Knicks, Clippers, and Nets exude a championship mentality. I said that stars want to play with teams they think they can win a title with.

First of all, Chris Paul was traded to the Clippers. He didn't choose to be there, and he's already declined a $60M extension offer with them. If he does choose to stay there, it will be because he thinks he can win a title with Blake Griffin.

Deron Williams thought he could win a title in Brooklyn partnered with (possibly) Dwight Howard, Gerald Wallace, and Joe Johnson. He explicitly said about his decision that he had been leaning toward picking Dallas, but decided on the Nets after the Joe Johnson trade.

Deron Williams said, "I had the meetings and it kind of changed my mind because once I got out of the meeting with Dallas and saw the way they were going and the team they were putting out there, and I saw that we just made a trade for Joe Johnson and I felt like that team for a longer time would be the better team."

See? He wanted to go to the team that he thought he could win a title with. Just like all these other stars do.

It's not about it being a big market. Guys want to win championships. Remember two years ago when everyone was bashing LeBron for choosing to pursue a title in Miami rather than going to the big market Knicks?

[pw_1016]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

There's something else I want to add.

A few of you have been going on and on about how Miami's such an attractive destination for free agents.

Really? Since when?

As I said, the Heat got LeBron and Bosh due to having a star they drafted, whothose guys wanted to play with, and also by making smart personnel decisions over the last several years to ensure that they'd have enough money to sign those guys.

Before LeBron, who was the last major free agent to sign with Miami?

Shaq was traded there. Before him, Mourning was dealt there. Both because their previous teams were desperate to get rid of them.

Tim Hardaway? Also traded to Miami.

Payton was just about washed up when he signed there.

Who? Who have the Heat EVER signed in free agency, or acquired in a sign-and-trade or something similar because the star wanted to play in Miami?

Some of you are trying to make it out like the Heat have always been a powerhouse and a big time player for getting superstars to want to play there.

It's fiction.

Not exactly major, but Mike Miller has been a significant part of their team. didnt he come as a free agent?

[TheLetterZ]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

Miller isn't a major free agent signing.

Also, he signed AFTER LeBron.

Because, as I've been saying, he wanted to play with LeBron, Wade, and Bosh.

[BlueNGold]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

Mike Miller? Come on now.

[Rocky]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

Yes, Mourning leveraged his way out of Charlotte, but he didn't demand to play for Miami.

No one has. You keep talking as if Miami has this long tradition of being an attractive destination for stars, and it simply isn't true.

And no, I didn't say that the Knicks, Clippers, and Nets exude a championship mentality. I said that stars want to play with teams they think they can win a title with.

First of all, Chris Paul was traded to the Clippers. He didn't choose to be there, and he's already declined a $60M extension offer with them. If he does choose to stay there, it will be because he thinks he can win a title with Blake Griffin.

Deron Williams thought he could win a title in Brooklyn partnered with (possibly) Dwight Howard, Gerald Wallace, and Joe Johnson. He explicitly said about his decision that he had been leaning toward picking Dallas, but decided on the Nets after the Joe Johnson trade.

Deron Williams said, "I had the meetings and it kind of changed my mind because once I got out of the meeting with Dallas and saw the way they were going and the team they were putting out there, and I saw that we just made a trade for Joe Johnson and I felt like that team for a longer time would be the better team."

See? He wanted to go to the team that he thought he could win a title with. Just like all these other stars do.

It's not about it being a big market. Guys want to win championships. Remember two years ago when everyone was bashing LeBron for choosing to pursue a title in Miami rather than going to the big market Knicks?

I never said that winning wasn't a big factor to these superstars who left their teams. But you would have to be blind to believe that market size didn't play a factor either. Why are all the "superteams" in New York, LA, and Miami? Why aren't there any in Sacramento, Utah, or Milwaukee? Is it that big of a coincidence that:

Lebron James
Dwight Howard
Deron Williams
Carmelo Anthony
Chris Bosh
Chris Paul
Amare Stoudamire

either left through free agency or were traded from (by using FA as a leverage) from smaller markets to significantly bigger markets?

Why hasn't a star of this caliber gone from a larger market to a smaller market (or in Miami's case a much better FA destination in terms of lifestyle)? Honestly the last star I can remember doing that was when Grant Hill went from Detroit to Orlando.

[DukeC]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

I never said that winning wasn't a big factor to these superstars who left their teams. But you would have to be blind to believe that market size didn't play a factor either. Why are all the "superteams" in New York, LA, and Miami? Why aren't there any in Sacramento, Utah, or Milwaukee? Is it that big of a coincidence that:

Lebron James
Dwight Howard
Deron Williams
Carmelo Anthony
Chris Bosh
Chris Paul
Amare Stoudamire

either left through free agency or were traded from (by using FA as a leverage) from smaller markets to significantly bigger markets?

Why hasn't a star of this caliber gone from a larger market to a smaller market (or in Miami's case a much better FA destination in terms of lifestyle)? Honestly the last star I can remember doing that was when Grant Hill went from Detroit to Orlando.

Because the bigger markets usually draft well and/or have great trade bait for said superstar (Excluding the Pau Gasol trade which was highway robbery. Also, it's the Lakers. They always retool within a year or two).

Did we not just witness the Knicks get WORSE after the trade for Melo (Excluding the free agent acquisitions this year because they only came because Melo and Amare were there)?

So we're just...we're just going to ignore the fact that the Nets were one of the worst teams in the league while the Jazz are still a perennial playoff team in the West?

So we're just going to ignore the fact that David Stern (the owners) vetoed Chris Paul going to the Lakers despite the Lakers literally bending over backwards in that trade proposal? THEY wanted Chris Paul on the Clippers.

Chris Bosh was a free agent and Lebron James was a free agent. They both decided they wanted to go play with the best SG in the league. Not to mention Miami had the cap space for it. Appreciation of Pat Riley's foresight would be nice. Also, LO ****ING L at that Mike Miller reach. **** out of here (Not you but to the other dude).

The only one who really forced himself to go anywhere was Melo...and he made the team he was going to WORSE in the process.

All the others were traded out of spite. Instead of blaming the problem on market size you should put the blame solely on the Front Office for making terrible decisions. I don't see the Thunder, Grizzlies, Spurs or Mavericks having Front Office problems.

Are either of those big markets? No, but 3 out of 4 of them have been in the Conference and or NBA Finals the past couple of years.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

Why is Deron Williams being grouped in with those other names?

[bamalam]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

The Clippers drafted Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan and Eric Bledsoe. They used guys they drafted like Eric Gordon and Aminu to trade for Chris Paul. The Hornets did a good job in the trade.

The Nets drafted Derrick Favors and traded him in a package that resulted in Enes Kanter and another draft pick to Utah for Deron Williams. Utah did a good job in the trade.

The Knicks used guys they drafted like Wilson Chandler and Danilo Gallinari to trade for Melo. I can't remember if Mosgov was a draft pick but they also traded Ray Felton, who the Nuggets later swung for Andre Miller. That's at least 4 rotation players that the Nuggets have used in their last 2 playoff appearances.

Well... the Heat only drafted Wade but they cleared a ton of cap space and pulled off of move that almost nobody thought they could do.

The Lakers drafted Kobe and Bynum. They used Bynum to get Howard. The Gasol trade, who knows if Memphis thought very highly of the rights to Marc Gasol at the time but it worked out for them.

kobe drafted by hornets and traded to LA

[phenom1990]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

kobe drafted by hornets and traded to LA

He played his entire career with the Lakers. He was traded on draft day, big big difference.

[TheLetterZ]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

I never said that winning wasn't a big factor to these superstars who left their teams. But you would have to be blind to believe that market size didn't play a factor either. Why are all the "superteams" in New York, LA, and Miami? Why aren't there any in Sacramento, Utah, or Milwaukee? Is it that big of a coincidence that:

Lebron James
Dwight Howard
Deron Williams
Carmelo Anthony
Chris Bosh
Chris Paul
Amare Stoudamire

either left through free agency or were traded from (by using FA as a leverage) from smaller markets to significantly bigger markets?

Why hasn't a star of this caliber gone from a larger market to a smaller market (or in Miami's case a much better FA destination in terms of lifestyle)? Honestly the last star I can remember doing that was when Grant Hill went from Detroit to Orlando.

I feel like you're getting a little too creative with how you're defining markets here.

You listed Chris Bosh as an example of someone who went from a smaller market to a larger one, despite the fact that Toronto actually has a (slightly) larger population than Miami and a better reputation for supporting its sports teams.

You're also underestimating how many "big market" franchises there are in the NBA.

There are four NBA teams in New York and Los Angeles alone.

Where are you drawing the line at big market?

You keep calling Miami a big market, and yet they're the 12th largest NBA market by population. That seems pretty average to me, and yet they managed to convince both LeBron and Bosh to go there.

[da ThRONe]

Re: Something has to be done to shift the power in the NBA

We are talking about glamour teams not just big markets. I think several things factor into being a glam team and market size is the biggest portion. It's why I think tv coverage is another reason why there is less parity. The glam teams get the majority of tv time.

Occasionally a Spurs or Thunder teams sneaks in or a Celtics or Lakers team will slip, but the national games are dominated by the glam teams.