MVP of the season so far?

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

There won't be any "robberies" or "snubbings" this year which is good enough for me.

[BleacherBum2310]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

I'd go harden. Amazing race though.

[ojandpizza]

MVP of the season so far?

Giving it to Curry for record makes sense to me if they were even, but I feel Harden is a notch above him and has been most of the year.

He's been the most consistent and dominant scorer in the league this year. 40-49 point range 8 times this year, 50+ twice.. Curry is a solid defender, Harden surprisingly was this year as well. I give them a wash pretty much, but Harden has done it without his anchor, and with their best defensive player (Beverly) missing 20+ games as well. While Curry does it playing on the best defensive team in the league. And Harden has been a notch higher offensively.

I'm not trying to hold it against Curry that his team is so good, because obviously he is the biggest piece of the puzzle in making that team so good. Harden averaging just as many assist to guys like Ariza, and Montiejunas most of the year is just a notch more impressive to me than Curry having Klay, Barnes, Iggy, Green, etc..

10 wins is a good jump, but still Houston plays in the best division In the entire league. Every team in their division is a playoff level team right now. And Harden has done it with 3 of his starters missing significant amounts of time. Dwight has missed half the year, Jones more than that, and Bev 20+ games. He's been the true definition of what an MVP is this year, in my option by a decent enough margin.

But like Pack said, you can't really go wrong either way. I don't have a problem with Curry winning it at all.. Actually there is about 4 guys who could realistically make a case for it, and that's not usually how it works.


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[DJ_Solis]

MVP of the season so far?

Giving it to Curry for record makes sense to me if they were even, but I feel Harden is a notch above him and has been most of the year.

He's been the most consistent and dominant scorer in the league this year. 40-49 point range 8 times this year, 50+ twice.. Curry is a solid defender, Harden surprisingly was this year as well. I give them a wash pretty much, but Harden has done it without his anchor, and with their best defensive player (Beverly) missing 20+ games as well. While Curry does it playing on the best defensive team in the league. And Harden has been a notch higher offensively.

I'm not trying to hold it against Curry that his team is so good, because obviously he is the biggest piece of the puzzle in making that team so good. Harden averaging just as many assist to guys like Ariza, and Montiejunas most of the year is just a notch more impressive to me than Curry having Klay, Barnes, Iggy, Green, etc..

10 wins is a good jump, but still Houston plays in the best division In the entire league. Every team in their division is a playoff level team right now. And Harden has done it with 3 of his starters missing significant amounts of time. Dwight has missed half the year, Jones more than that, and Bev 20+ games. He's been the true definition of what an MVP is this year, in my option by a decent enough margin.

But like Pack said, you can't really go wrong either way. I don't have a problem with Curry winning it at all.. Actually there is about 4 guys who could realistically make a case for it, and that's not usually how it works.


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I agree it can go either way. I don't think anybody will be calling it a robbery for whoever doesn't get it, but it's an interesting conversation to have for now, I think. You get to see a lot of different point of views, which I like.
There's just a few things I got to respond to here. Curry averages more assists even though he gets less playing time and uses a lower percentage of plays. Neither player are making their defense what it is but I take a look at who they're guarding on a regular basis and in that case, Steph clearly has a harder task in front of him. Yes, Houston plays in the hardest division but their record against those teams isn't great, only 7-6.
One thing that bodes well for Harden is that they've gotten a ton of contributions from unlikely sources this year. Certainly, some of that is credited to Harden.
I'm kind of wondering why Chris Paul isn't ever brought up in conversation though.


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[Streets]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

James Harden is the definition of what an MVP should be.

Has done the most with the least- Take Harden, Lebron, Westbrook off their teams and they are lotto bound, take Curry off and they still make the playoffs.

Best player at his position- Harden is hands down the best 2, Lebron the best 3, Davis the best 4 (sorry Duncan), but Curry is arguably behind Paul/Westbrook as the best PG in the league.

Harden has literally carried his team- The Rockets have been a revolving door of bodies, lineups, etc. night-to-night, McHale is nowhere near the coach Steve Kerr is, but the one consistent is Harden. This team rises and falls with him and somehow against all odds, they are #2 in a stacked Western conference. Just imagine what Harden could do with a good coach, a system, a playbook, a consistent #2 option, others to take pressure off him? My god. I saw a stat that said something to the affect that Harden is responsible for like half the teams points scored. It's ridiculous.

However, there are a lot of knocks against Harden

His game is "ugly", he doesn't play defense, he flops, he games the system, he's a manufactured superstar... these are the narratives on James Harden from people who don't watch him play. He gets legitimately fouled and in fact a few times this year had been fouled and it not been called which cost the Rockets some games (the refs just say "my bad" but nothing can really be done). Steph is the anti-Harden when it comes to aesthetics (fun to watch, highlight plays, great shooter, etc.) and the Warriors are the anti-Rockets (loved by the media, fun to watch blowout style wins while the Rockets grind it out every night).

The fact is Steph will win this award. He's absolutely loved by the media. It's the Steve Nash effect. I think best player on the best team is a dumb way to give the award. While record should be a factor, it shouldn't be THE factor. Curry has the same stats he had last season. The only difference is Kerr (and the maturation of some of his young teammates). Kerr should absolutely win COTY. Steph is petty much doing the same stuff he's always done on a stacked team. And while I don't think having help should be a knock against him, I do think if their record isn't what it is, he's not even in the discussion like he is (he's in the Chris Paul tier). I get wanting to reward a historic season, but I think COTY would adequately do that.

Very interesting that the players are going to vote on their own awards. I could easily see Steph being the Media's MVP and Harden being the player's MVP but who knows...

[wwharton]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

You said it shouldn't be a knock against Curry that he's on a stacked team but that was the very first point in your list of reasons why he shouldn't be MVP.

The 2nd thing on your list is about being the best at his position and obviously, if you think Curry is the MVP of the league then this year you think he's performed better than any other PG too. If you think Westbrook should be ahead of him on the PG rankings then you clearly don't think he should be MVP... this can't really be used as a reason.

Your main point is valid, about him carrying the team. But that other stuff doesn't say anything.

[Streets]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

You said it shouldn't be a knock against Curry that he's on a stacked team but that was the very first point in your list of reasons why he shouldn't be MVP.

No it shouldn't be held against him that he's on a stacked team, but he also shouldn't get MVP because he's on a stacked team either. Just because his teammates, coach, system are better than the other main candidates, does not mean he is the most valuable player. That's my point. Don't knock him for being on a stacked team, but don't give him MVP for it either, but that is what is happening since Curry was the same player last year statistically, but since the team is so good he's likely to get the award, even though Harden has meant the most to his team than any other player in the league.

The 2nd thing on your list is about being the best at his position and obviously, if you think Curry is the MVP of the league then this year you think he's performed better than any other PG too. If you think Westbrook should be ahead of him on the PG rankings then you clearly don't think he should be MVP... this can't really be used as a reason.

That's my point. Curry may win the MVP without being the best player at his position because his TEAM is doing so well. Westbrook may be a better player than Steph, but won't win the award because he's fighting for the 8th seed. Steph is doing the exact same things he did last year, but his team and especially his coach has improved so its being treated like a "team" award and is given to Steph Curry in honor of the historic season his team is having because he is the best player on said team.

Here are his stats this year vs. last year. Not one person said Curry was robbed last year despite the fact he is likely to win it this year.

14-15: 23.6 pts (48-44-91%), 4.3 reb, 7.7 ast, 2.0 stl, 0.2 blk, 3.1 tov in 33 min
13-14: 24.0 pts (47-42-89%), 4.3 reb, 8.5 ast, 1.6 stl, 0.2 blk, 3.8 tov in 37 min

Your main point is valid, about him carrying the team. But that other stuff doesn't say anything.

I think it does. I agree that Steph will win it, but I think the criteria of best player on best team (Steph) awards advantageous situations more than it does the one player in the league who has had the biggest impact on their team's success (Harden).

[ojandpizza]

MVP of the season so far?

Since we are kinda on the topic..

I was going to ask this awhile back when Westbrook was out of his damn mind. How would anyone feel if Curry won MVP but Westbrook, Wall, CP3, someone made the first team point guard spot?

As far as I know the award is just given to the best players at their given positions. Team record isn't a required field, value to the teams success isn't a required field, although I'm sure both play some role in the voters logic.

But as the other poster already mentioned, production wise Curry is basically doing what he did last year. Slightly better in areas but nothing big. Curry is the better shooter than of them all, better scorer than CP3 or Wall easily, much better playing off ball than any of them.. But I believe as far as being a "point guard" goes CP3 and Wall are the best in the league. And CP3 did make the first team over him last year, without anything really changing aside from team records this year.. And Westbrook (I don't think he should make it over Curry) but he has had some moments where he's been playing better than anyone in the league.. Injuries and some inconsistent moments should keep him off the list IMO though.. Wouldn't be surprised to see a few people give him their votes though.

But basically my question is, is it feasible to think that's a possibility? Curry win MVP but not be considered the top PG.. And if it did somehow happen would any of yall have a problem with it?

Didn't Gasol make the 2nd team all defense the year he won defensive player of the year? This would be similar logic right? His impact headed one of the best defensive teams in the league, while individually he was great.. But individually voters felt Chandler and Noah were slightly better.. Which is odd because technically Gasol was 3rd team.. There were two first place centers along with Ibaka, 6 man team... But yall get my point.


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[ojandpizza]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

No it shouldn't be held against him that he's on a stacked team, but he also shouldn't get MVP because he's on a stacked team either. Just because his teammates, coach, system are better than the other main candidates, does not mean he is the most valuable player. That's my point. Don't knock him for being on a stacked team, but don't give him MVP for it either, but that is what is happening since Curry was the same player last year statistically, but since the team is so good he's likely to get the award, even though Harden has meant the most to his team than any other player in the league.



That's my point. Curry may win the MVP without being the best player at his position because his TEAM is doing so well. Westbrook may be a better player than Steph, but won't win the award because he's fighting for the 8th seed. Steph is doing the exact same things he did last year, but his team and especially his coach has improved so its being treated like a "team" award and is given to Steph Curry in honor of the historic season his team is having because he is the best player on said team.

Here are his stats this year vs. last year. Not one person said Curry was robbed last year despite the fact he is likely to win it this year.

14-15: 23.6 pts (48-44-91%), 4.3 reb, 7.7 ast, 2.0 stl, 0.2 blk, 3.1 tov in 33 min
13-14: 24.0 pts (47-42-89%), 4.3 reb, 8.5 ast, 1.6 stl, 0.2 blk, 3.8 tov in 37 min



I think it does. I agree that Steph will win it, but I think the criteria of best player on best team (Steph) awards advantageous situations more than it does the one player in the league who has had the biggest impact on their team's success (Harden).

I agree with a lot of this but agree with the other side as well.. MVP voting is such a two sided thing..

Basically I think it boils down to this.. If Golden State was 5th in the West would Curry be a front runner? I honestly don't think he would, I believe he would be behind Harden and LeBron, maybe in a toss up with Curry/Westbrook/Davis around that 3rd place mark..

Harden at 5th place is still a front runner. LeBron with a record that would be in the 5-7 range out West is likely a front runner. Davis and Westbrook have entered discussions off and on as 8th seeds. I don't think Curry holds the individual pull those guys do, especially Harden. And like you mentioned he's basically doing what he did last year. And last year he finished 6th..

Team record plays a large role, but I don't think it should outweigh the individual role as it's an individual award. I feel as if Curry's record holds more weight than his production.. Which to some people that might make sense, to me it doesn't.

But like everyone else has said this year it's so close that I wouldn't be upset either way. And I already expect Curry to win it.


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[Streets]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

I agree with a lot of this but agree with the other side as well.. MVP voting is such a two sided thing..

Basically I think it boils down to this.. If Golden State was 5th in the West would Curry be a front runner? I honestly don't think he would, I believe he would be behind Harden and LeBron, maybe in a toss up with Curry/Westbrook/Davis around that 3rd place mark..

Harden at 5th place is still a front runner. LeBron with a record that would be in the 5-7 range out West is likely a front runner. Davis and Westbrook have entered discussions off and on as 8th seeds. I don't think Curry holds the individual pull those guys do, especially Harden. And like you mentioned he's basically doing what he did last year. And last year he finished 6th..

Team record plays a large role, but I don't think it should outweigh the individual role as it's an individual award. I feel as if Curry's record holds more weight than his production.. Which to some people that might make sense, to me it doesn't.

But like everyone else has said this year it's so close that I wouldn't be upset either way. And I already expect Curry to win it.


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Between this and your last post, you absolutely get what I'm saying.

- Curry is going to win MVP

- Team record plays way more of a factor in MVP voting than it should

- Curry is doing the same things he did last year

- If he wasn't on the best team in the league he wouldn't be a serious contender let alone the favorite to win it.

- Curry could feasibly be deemed the most valuable player without being names the best player at his position.

The only thing we might not agree on is the media aspect. The media votes on these awards and by in large love both Steph Curry and the Warriors while Harden and the Rockets are largely hated by the media. Whether or not people want to admit it, this plays a factor when it comes to voting. The popularity contest, fun to watch element plays a role. Whether or not you agree is fine, as long as the above points aren't overlooked.

I could see Harden/Westbrook as all NBA 1st team and Curry/Paul as all NBA second team.

[wwharton]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

No it shouldn't be held against him that he's on a stacked team, but he also shouldn't get MVP because he's on a stacked team either. Just because his teammates, coach, system are better than the other main candidates, does not mean he is the most valuable player. That's my point. Don't knock him for being on a stacked team, but don't give him MVP for it either, but that is what is happening since Curry was the same player last year statistically, but since the team is so good he's likely to get the award, even though Harden has meant the most to his team than any other player in the league.



That's my point. Curry may win the MVP without being the best player at his position because his TEAM is doing so well. Westbrook may be a better player than Steph, but won't win the award because he's fighting for the 8th seed. Steph is doing the exact same things he did last year, but his team and especially his coach has improved so its being treated like a "team" award and is given to Steph Curry in honor of the historic season his team is having because he is the best player on said team.

Here are his stats this year vs. last year. Not one person said Curry was robbed last year despite the fact he is likely to win it this year.

14-15: 23.6 pts (48-44-91%), 4.3 reb, 7.7 ast, 2.0 stl, 0.2 blk, 3.1 tov in 33 min
13-14: 24.0 pts (47-42-89%), 4.3 reb, 8.5 ast, 1.6 stl, 0.2 blk, 3.8 tov in 37 min



I think it does. I agree that Steph will win it, but I think the criteria of best player on best team (Steph) awards advantageous situations more than it does the one player in the league who has had the biggest impact on their team's success (Harden).

While you complain about team success having too big of a role, I'd say you're focusing too much on stats. The MVP race isn't a player against a set threshold, it's players competing against each other. So what any of them did last year doesn't matter without considering what everyone else did also. So even if we were only going to focus on individual stats, his stats this year aren't competing against the other contenders from LAST year, so it's really irrelevant whether or not they are the same.

I'd also argue that team success HAS to play a role in the Most Valuable Player (not "Best") award. How can you reward value without considering team success? If your individual success isn't enough to get your team in the playoffs, then how valuable was it? I used that extreme example on purpose... predictably we aren't really talking about anyone that fits that description. So that puts us in the grey area where there has to be a combination of team and individual success. That will never be an exact science.

Let me also say this isn't me saying Curry should be MVP. I'd actually be fine with him or Harden for different reasons, some you've pointed out. I just don't agree with your reasons Curry shouldn't win it (while agreeing with many reasons you say Harden should).

As for the best at his position, I feel like if you don't think he's best at his position THIS YEAR then you're already saying you don't think he should be MVP so no other discussion matters. I can see them not taking team success into account as much but I still think it should have some role as stats don't ever tell a complete story. Personally (and this is to answer OJ's question) I would have a problem with a player winning MVP but not 1st team All Pro at their position.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

The Rockets are hated by the Media?

[King_B_Mack]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

If you think the Warriors would make the playoffs in the west without Curry and somehow the Cavs as currently constructed without LeBron couldn't get there in the sewer that is the bottom half of the east, then I've got about 47 bridges to sell you.

[Streets]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

While you complain about team success having too big of a role, I'd say you're focusing too much on stats. The MVP race isn't a player against a set threshold, it's players competing against each other. So what any of them did last year doesn't matter without considering what everyone else did also. So even if we were only going to focus on individual stats, his stats this year aren't competing against the other contenders from LAST year, so it's really irrelevant whether or not they are the same.

I'd also argue that team success HAS to play a role in the Most Valuable Player (not "Best") award. How can you reward value without considering team success? If your individual success isn't enough to get your team in the playoffs, then how valuable was it? I used that extreme example on purpose... predictably we aren't really talking about anyone that fits that description. So that puts us in the grey area where there has to be a combination of team and individual success. That will never be an exact science.

Let me also say this isn't me saying Curry should be MVP. I'd actually be fine with him or Harden for different reasons, some you've pointed out. I just don't agree with your reasons Curry shouldn't win it (while agreeing with many reasons you say Harden should).

As for the best at his position, I feel like if you don't think he's best at his position THIS YEAR then you're already saying you don't think he should be MVP so no other discussion matters. I can see them not taking team success into account as much but I still think it should have some role as stats don't ever tell a complete story. Personally (and this is to answer OJ's question) I would have a problem with a player winning MVP but not 1st team All Pro at their position.

I think we're closer than you think. I am in no way advocating that team success should not matter. I also don't think stats are the end-all-be-all. I also agree it's not an exact science. What I AM saying is that best player on the best team should not have as much weight as it does and in the case of Curry I think it is the biggest determining factor in him winning MVP. The Warriors record is the difference between him winning MVP and not being seriously considered (In my opinion). And I don't think that the stats are the sole factor because in that case you go Westbrook and his 248 triple doubles or maybe Anthony Davis. I think you take the player who has the biggest impact (stats) on the teams success (record). It's a combo of both, but in the case of Steph (and Nash before him) they are being rewarded for being great players in really really great situations.

[Streets]

Re: MVP of the season so far?

The Rockets are hated by the Media?

You've never heard "the Warriors are the most exciting team in the league" or "the #1 must-watch league pass team?"

Or, Patrick Beverly is a cheap-shot artist, Dwight Howard is a soft man/baby, Moreyball is stupid, the Rockets are super boring as all they do is try to live at the line and extend games, ref bait, etc.

If you think the Warriors would make the playoffs in the west without Curry and somehow the Cavs as currently constructed without LeBron couldn't get there in the sewer that is the bottom half of the east, then I've got about 47 bridges to sell you.

This one is true. Two other stars in the Leastern Conference. They'd be alright, lol.