ESPN Top 100 list

[ojandpizza]

ESPN Top 100 list

So SLAM cam up with their own list and I thought for those of us that like this sort of thing it would be cool to compare the two of them.

Spoiler

I’ll post SLAM’s rankings with a note to what the same player was ranked by ESPN.

1.) Jordan - 1
2.) LeBron - 3
3.) Magic -4
4.) Kareem - 2
5.) Kobe - 12
6.) Shaq - 9
7.) Russell - 7
8.) Wilt - 5
9.) Duncan - 8
10.) Bird - 6
11.) Oscar - 11
12.) Hakeem - 10
13.) Durant - 22
14.) Moses - 15
15.) Julius Erving - 14
16.) Jerry West - 13
17.) I. Thomas - 26
18.) E. Baylor - 24
19.) S. Curry - 23
20.) Barkley - 18
21.) Karl Malone - 16
22.) Pippen - 25
23.) Wade - 27
24.) Havlicek - 28
25.) Stockton - 19
26.) Garnett - 21
27.) Dirk - 17
28.) Iverson - 46
29.) D. Robinson - 20
30.) Ewing - 32
31.) Kidd - 35
32.) Barry - 37
33.) Hayes - 40
34.) Nash - 30
35.) Chris Paul - 29
36.) Walt Frazier - 38
37.) Westbrook - 49
38.) Cousy - 39
39.) Payton - 41
40.) McHale - 31
41.) D. Wilkins - 44
42.) Unseld - 53
43.) Drexler - 36
44.) Gervin - 47
45.) Mikan - 33
46.) Worthy - 43
47.) Reed - 48
48.) Archibald - 76
49.) Walton - 42
50.) E Monroe - 60
51.) B King - 54
52.) Cowens - 55
53.) J Lucas - 79
54.) Parish - 57
55.) R Miller - 51
56.) Pettit - 34
57.) McGrady - 63
58.) R Allen - 50
59.) Rodman - 64
60.) Harden - 97
61.) Maravich - 71
62.) Pierce - 45
63.) C Hawkins - not listed
64.) Thurmond - 92
65.) Sam Jones - 78
66.) McAdoo - 52
67.) Parker - 58
68.) Lanier - 68
69.) Schayes - 74
70.) Carter - 69
71.) Bellamy - not listed
72.) Manu - 61
73.) Dennis Johnson - 84
74.) D Thompson - 82
75.) B Cunningham - 88
76.) Kawhi - not listed
77.) Dantley - 72
78.) Mourning - 65
79.) A Gilmore - 70
80.) Dikembe - 73
81.) Grant Hill - 80
82.) Kyrie - not listed
83.) Dumars - 77
84.) Mullin - 83
85.) Antetokounmpo - not listed
86.) Dave Bing - not listed
87.) A English - 62
88.) Chris Webber - 66
89.) Dwight Howard - 67
90.) Hal Greer - not listed
91.) Jack Twyman - not listed
92.) Penny - not listed
93.) P Gasol - 56
94.) Moncrief - 81
95.) Melo - 59
96.) T. Hardaway - not listed
97.) DeBusschere - 85
98.) S Haywood - not listed
99.) Lenny Wilkens - 93
100.) Shawn Kemp - 100

Not listed players were replaced with Kevin Love (99), Gail Goodrich (98), Bobby Jones (96), Marc Gasol (95), Mark Price (94), Yao Ming (89) Blake Griffin (75), Paul Arizin (90), Chris Bosh (86), C Billups (87) Mo Cheeks (91)

[dubcity]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Durant at 13 sticks out like crazy.

Carmelo ahead of DeBusschere. AlexBrady bout to have a moment.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Would I be nitpicking about Giannis at 85 or this just about right for him at this stage in his career so far?


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[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

The only way you can make a list like this is to seperate it into two categories, the bigs (centers and power forwards) and the non-bigs (point guards and wingmen).

I rank the bigs like this:

1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem-Abdul Jabbar
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Tim Duncan
7. Nate Thurmond
8. Kevin McHale
9. Bill Walton
10. Willis Reed
11. Dave DeBusschere
12. Bob Pettit
13. Dolph Schayes
14. Dennis Rodman
15. Gus Johnson
16. Jerry Lucas
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. James Worthy
19. Wes Unseld


Non-Bigs

1. Michael Jordan
2. Oscar Robertson
3. LeBron James
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Jerry West
8. John Havlicek
9. Scottie Pippen
10. Julius Erving
11. John Stockton
12. Walt Frazier
13. Rick Barry
14. Dwyane Wade
15. Kevin Durant
16. Bill Sharman
17. Hal Greer
18. Earl Monroe
19. Sam Jones
20. Sidney Moncrief
21. Dennis Johnson
22. Lenny Wilkens
23. Clyde Drexler
24. Jason Kidd
25. Stephen Curry
26. Isiah Thomas
27. Joe Dumars
28. Paul Pierce
29. Billy Cunningham
30. Elgin Baylor
31. Lou Hudson

I think you can only do a top 50 or so as ranking 100 players is too daunting. But those are the 50 that really stand out that I've seen. Once you get past the top 10 on each of the lists it gets really hard to pick so don't pay too much attention to the exact placements.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Would I be nitpicking about Giannis at 85 or this just about right for him at this stage in his career so far?


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This is always my biggest hang up when trying to decide how I think a player should be judged. Do you rate them based on their abilities or do you still need to play the "wait and see" game. I'm a firm believer in a players talent/ability, their sustained level of play, and their impact on the court being the main driver in comparing them to another player. Their career stats, achievements, and number of championships, and all that play a small role in determining differences in closely ranked players, but for me when it comes down to player A vs player B I'm picking the player who I feel was a better player rather than the player who played on more championship teams.

With that said I think if you look at what Giannis is doing this season he could be ranked even higher than he is. On the other hand, this season is really the only season he's had that would put him in consideration for a list like this. On his career he's not a top 100 player but do you give him the benefit of the doubt because he's playing so well this season or not? Reggie is often my example, but for comparisons sake Giannis this season is a much better player than Reggie for any season. But in terms of their careers it's a landslide in Reggie's favor. Another example might be someone like Bill Walton, he won a ring as the focal point in Portland but wasn't even able to play one full season, topping out at 65 games that same year. If he's all the way up in the top 50, how much do you discredit Giannis on his one year of work?

It's hard to judge for sure.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

I think you can only do a top 50 or so as ranking 100 players is too daunting. But those are the 50 that really stand out that I've seen. Once you get past the top 10 on each of the lists it gets really hard to pick so don't pay too much attention to the exact placements.

Numbering is very difficult, it's much easier to put players in tiers than to find an exact number. Many players are virtually equal but still vastly different in terms of what they bring to the court. Hard to pick one over the other.

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

The Greek Freak can't rightfully be put in any all-all conversations until his outside shot sees some improvement.

Walton is a different story since he had a total game. His defensive rotations were masterful and his passing was incredible. His hands were great, he could run, jump, and spin. He scored with hooks and line drive jumpers. Bill was unbelievable in the clutch too.

[ThatGolfR]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Dirk being higher than KG. That makes me laugh a little. Scoring wise, yes. All around, no.

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Dirk being higher than KG. That makes me laugh a little. Scoring wise, yes. All around, no.

KG was the better all around player but every aspect of his game nose-dived in the clutch. He was fortunate to have Pierce and Allen around to take the clutch shots. Nowitzki, on the other hand, has proven that his specific skill-set can power his team to a title.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

KG was the better all around player but every aspect of his game nose-dived in the clutch. He was fortunate to have Pierce and Allen around to take the clutch shots. Nowitzki, on the other hand, has proven that his specific skill-set can power his team to a title.

That one title run changed the entire narrative of Dirks career...before that he had a magnificent string of choke jobs including completely being completely dismantled by Don Nelson in the playoffs...

KG definitely had some lowlights in the clutch bit was huge for Boston in that title run...

They aren't really that far off in that respect...

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[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Ranking Dirk against the all time great 4’s is always difficult. Many of the players you would compare him with indeed had better all around games than Dirk did. But Dirk’s just one of the players that was so damn good at what he did well that it didn’t matter much what he didn’t do well.

But Dirk, much like Duncan, had such a long successful career that not many players can compare to. When you look at his numbers on his career he’s in such elite company, you don’t really fully realize the body of work he’s put in until you look at it all.


Only players to score more career points than Dirk are Kareem, Malone, Kobe, Jordan, and Wilt. He’s behind only Duncan and Malone for playoff scoring from PFs, only Pettit ahead of him in playoff PPG among PFs.

His shooting numbers on his career are nearly identical to Larry Bird’s as well as their points per game during their prime being almost identical as well. He’s ability to score is realistically underrated even though he’s been labeled as a scorer on his career. Part of the rare 50/40/90 club. Dirk’s playoff numbers through the prime years might even be considered a slight tick better than Bird’s, playing in a pretty competitive Western conference his career as well as competitive individual matchups at that 4 spot with guys like KG, Duncan, Webber, etc.

Without reaching too far here, his game is actually more similar to a 7 foot Larry Bird than most of his power forward counterparts. Obviously he’s not the passer and basketball genius Bird is, but his scoring ability and talent is more in line with Bird than probably anyone else who’s played. He had seasons where he was unguardable, playoff runs where he was unguardable. MVP award, finals MVP award, has led the playoffs in scoring, etc.

In their careers head to head KG never out stood over Dirk. Obviously he got a couple more rebounds in those matchups, Dirk a couple more points. KG always the better shot blocker, more athletic, more versatile defensively by a land slide. You could do more with less having a player like KG because of how versatile he is, but you can build a system around Dirk so easily that no matter how the league changes, or what players/style you put around him it just seems like he’s always going to be successful.

At their peaks, I would side with KG being a better player, although I wouldn’t call it a landslide, 2nd and 3rd best PF of their time behind Duncan. But on their careers, I’m taking Dirk’s career over KG’s career. How you decide which of the two is a more important part of the equation is the million dollar question. That’s why there is an argument often between how the two of them are ranked.


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[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Garnett was not the all time great defender that many of his supporters believe he was. What he could do was envelop screen/rolls and force the ball-handler to fan out wide which would then allow his teammate to latch back onto him. In low post defense, KG would actively front and three-quarter but once that failed he would get roasted when playing from behind. In off ball defense, KG would look at the ball which made him only a decent rim protector.

It should also be noted that Larry Bird would rank much higher on the all time scoring list if he didn't have to share the ball with guys like Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson, and Tiny Archibald.

The key to Bird's game was not his outside shooting (which was a bit overrated) it was his anticipation. In that department only Steve Nash has come close to matching it.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

It should also be noted that Larry Bird would rank much higher on the all time scoring list if he didn't have to share the ball with guys like Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson, and Tiny Archibald.

The key to Bird's game was not his outside shooting (which was a bit overrated) it was his anticipation. In that department only Steve Nash has come close to matching it.

True, but Dirk's game wasn't all outside shooting either. One of the best mid-range shooters and post scorers the league has had, with a fade-a-way shot that was every bit as impossible to defend as a Wilt fade or Kareem sky-hook. Just had to hope he missed.

Bird could have been higher, even with sharing with those guys if not for the back issues, but Dirk could have also averaged 30+ a night looking to score more or playing on poor teams like KG. He could be higher as well. Hell if he and Nash would have stayed together through their careers they would both likely have Malone/Stockton career totals. I actually think playing with McHale helped Bird more than took away from him. McHale demanded as much or more attention from defenses, kept teams from gearing up on Larry.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

I know everybody loves a good All-Time Players list! This one is extremely in-depth (almost painfully so...took me 5-10 minutes to read/watch the profile for one player once you start getting into the top 20 or so).

Written by one of the guys from Nylon Calculus

http://www.backpicks.com/2017/12/11/...n-nba-history/

Just wanted to add this into this thread for cross comparisons on all the lists.

[VDusen04]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Just wanted to add this into this thread for cross comparisons on all the lists.

Haven't been able to dig all the way but I like where he seems to be going with this. I've always wondered why people were so fixated on judging individual players only by the number of team championships they'd won. Well, I guess I can understand why people fixate on that, I just don't agree with its gravity in most cases. Rather, I like the idea of looking at how positively a player affects a team, period, even if the end result isn't an NBA championship.

For instance, throw Michael Jordan onto the early 90's Bulls and they're championship contenders every single year. However, throw Michael Jordan on the 1993 Mavericks and they probably make the playoffs, which would be an incredible improvement for a team that won just 11 games without him. Michael Jordan is still the same Michael Jordan in each case. It's just, when his point guard is Mike Iuzzolino, that team's only going to go so far.