ESPN Top 100 list

[Mikey3148]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

I'd be more interested in knowing who replaces Love.

It's not like he's top 30, he barely made the cut. 100 players is a large chunk of players. And just a couple years ago he was being called a top 5-10 player in the league. A top 5-10 player from his era is making this list plain and simple.

His numbers were inflated in Minny, but he proved he could carry a team offensively. Which not every player can do, tons of guys on this last haven't proven to be able to do that. During his best 4 years with the Wolves his averages were about 24 and 14. You adjust that to the pace of the game in the 80's and he's more like 28 and 16 or something.. Those aren't top 100 type of player numbers?

I mean if you kicked him off I wouldn't really argue it. But it's definitely not a big deal that he's there. Realistically who do you swap him for? Someone who's likely at the same level as him anyways. So what's the argument to be made.


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I think Shawn Marion should be in the top 100 over him. Great defensive player and a very good rebounder to go with his scoring. Also played on a very good Suns team that went deep into the playoffs a couple years .

[dubcity]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

I mean if you kicked him off I wouldn't really argue it. But it's definitely not a big deal that he's there. Realistically who do you swap him for? Someone who's likely at the same level as him anyways. So what's the argument to be made.


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Without thinking about it too much, I would put Tim Hardaway and Mitch Richmond ahead of him. And I'm sure I could think of a handful of other 90s guy who were better, but they don't have that name recognition anymore. Love will have a good shot of being a no doubt guy on a list like this in 4-5 years, but not now.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Wouldn't mind seeing Marion or Richmond on the list either... I'm not so sure about Tim. I mean I feel as if he's deserving, but maybe not more so than some of the others already on it.

I think Mitch was a better player than Reggie. What Reggie has going for him is lots of his big games were playoff games, in the bright lights on the big stage.

I compare Reggie to the guys who are late first to early second round draft picks but jump to lottery status solely based on a good tournament run. That's basically Reggie's NBA career, that and longevity. Forever viewed in a much higher regard than players just as good, or even better, than him.


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[Rocky]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

There are plenty of role players in the half of fame.. That was Rodman's role, to rebound. He was a great defender in Detroit, more of a nuisance in Chicago but still good.

You're basically saying that being one of the leagues best rebounders and defenders makes you a top 100 player ever? Regardless that you can't shoot, can't dribble well, can't make free throws, aren't a good playmaker, etc. Don't even finish well at the rim, can't make the defense respect you.

No need to argue about who replaces Love then. Deandre Jordan can have his spot. And let's go ahead and get Draymond into that top 50.

I just think it's funny that a guy who can score 30 a night but is just average defensively gets so much hate because he isn't a "two way" player. But someone who is a great defender that gives even less offensively than what the scorer does offensively is praised like crazy.

I love Rodman. He was a huge addition to those Bulls squads and played a big role in making them so dominant. Probably the best pound for pound rebounder ever. But he's not a top 100 talent. He wasn't a top 20 player in his era. And no way is he a top 10 power forward ever.. He's got the jewelry on his fingers, and his double standard ranking is inflated from it.


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There are plenty of scorers on the list who were awful defensively for the majority of their careers (Carter, Nash). Rodman was arguably the best player on a championship team (90 Pistons) has 5 rings and is on the short list for the greatest rebounder ever which everybody who has played knows how important rebounding is.

That's my problem with this list. I understand they wanted to judge players on their own merits but I think they are undervaluing the importance of leadership and team play. I like Simmons' list that had Russell at 2 and Duncan at 7.

[Scott812313]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

What exactly does LeBron turning 32 or retiring do to make a difference in his placement though? That's the argument I don't get.

From about 2007ish till now he's been nearly unanimously the best player in the league. The only two other players to take that throne and maintain it for a lengthy stretch like that has been Jordan and Kareem.. That's why they are the top 3.

Look at other eras, who was the best player in the 60's? Was it Russell, Wilt, West, Baylor? It's argumentative. The 70's was Kareem's world, then you have the 80's. Was the best player Magic, was it Bird, Dr. J, Moses, Kareem still, young Jordan? Again, there is no player that separates himself.. The 90's was Jordan, 2000's pre LeBron was Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, a year of AI, year of KG.. And then LeBron and his stretch.

I actually think those guys being the top 3 might be the most logical thing about this list.


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If now means 2016 or even 2015, he might not even be top 5, never mind unanimous best. A guy with 2 rings that he had to chase down and join forces for has no business being #3 all time.

Kobe was better than LeBron until 2010 or so, too.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

If now means 2016 or even 2015, he might not even be top 5, never mind unanimous best. A guy with 2 rings that he had to chase down and join forces for has no business being #3 all time.

Kobe was better than LeBron until 2010 or so, too.

And you're serious? I guess we can just agree to disagree then. I don't have a response for that lol.


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[Scott812313]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

And you're serious? I guess we can just agree to disagree then. I don't have a response for that lol.


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Serious about what? Only a LeBron homer thinks he's the best player in the world right now. He's literally one of the worst shooters in the league and he's lazy on defense.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

There are plenty of scorers on the list who were awful defensively for the majority of their careers (Carter, Nash). Rodman was arguably the best player on a championship team (90 Pistons) has 5 rings and is on the short list for the greatest rebounder ever which everybody who has played knows how important rebounding is.



That's my problem with this list. I understand they wanted to judge players on their own merits but I think they are undervaluing the importance of leadership and team play. I like Simmons' list that had Russell at 2 and Duncan at 7.

So Rodman's attitude, technicals, ejections, all the stuff that came with his career is leadership qualities?

Also, how was Rodman's better than Zeke or Dumars? He spent half the year coming off the bench, only started 2 games in the finals. Averaged a whopping 2 points and 5 boards. Played less than 20 minutes a game.

In a league that team defense far and away outweighs individual defense I just can't place a good defender over a teams go to scorer or elite playmaker.

It's not like Rodman was the type of defender you could build a team around. A lot of these scorers are, especially someone like Nash. Historically a rim protector that you can backbone your teams defense around is of more value than what Rodman brought.


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[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Serious about what? Only a LeBron homer thinks he's the best player in the world right now. He's literally one of the worst shooters in the league and he's lazy on defense.

And only a LeBron ***** would claim he hasn't been for awhile now?

I said up to this point. Not necessarily saying he's the best in the league this year. Though he's a better all around player than maybe anyone but Westbrook this season. Steph is the MVP though.

He's lazy on defense at times, and he is having a bad shooting year. The problem with LeBron is he's not "LeBron" until the playoffs. That's how he's been the last 3-4 years now. He also noticeably plays different against a team like Philly than he would going up against Durant or other stars. That's just who he is now, he's conservative. No different than Pop sitting his stars for games, or Wade playing half seasons really.

Last year in the playoffs he was noticeably still the best in the league. Led both teams in points, rebounds, assists in the finals. First time ever. Was responsible for about 58 of his teams points per game, most in finals history. Came damn close to averaging a 40ppg triple double. Through the playoffs he finished 2nd in scoring per game, 9th in rebounds, 2nd in assists, 15th in blocks, 10th in steals, 3rd in EFF.. Who else in this league can do that?

He's also likely on pace to make his 6th straight finals. Which Kobe didn't do, Duncan didn't do, Jordan didn't do, Larry didn't do, Magic didn't do, nobody has accomplished that feat since Bill Russell.

His shooting is down since Miami, which I think in large part is because he wants to win a ring in Cleveland and isn't focused on the efficient side of his game now that he's achieved what he achieved in Miami. But he's still scoring more efficiently than almost everyone in the league. Out of the top 30 scorers in the league he's 4th in FG%. Actually Kawhi is at 51% with LeBron, Durant, Curry at 50%. For someone who scores that efficiently does it really matter if his outside shooting percentage is trash right now?


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[Mikey3148]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

And only a LeBron ***** would claim he hasn't been for awhile now?

I said up to this point. Not necessarily saying he's the best in the league this year. Though he's a better all around player than maybe anyone but Westbrook this season. Steph is the MVP though.

He's lazy on defense at times, and he is having a bad shooting year. The problem with LeBron is he's not "LeBron" until the playoffs. That's how he's been the last 3-4 years now. He also noticeably plays different against a team like Philly than he would going up against Durant or other stars. That's just who he is now, he's conservative. No different than Pop sitting his stars for games, or Wade playing half seasons really.

Last year in the playoffs he was noticeably still the best in the league. Led both teams in points, rebounds, assists in the finals. First time ever. Was responsible for about 58 of his teams points per game, most in finals history. Came damn close to averaging a 40ppg triple double. Through the playoffs he finished 2nd in scoring per game, 9th in rebounds, 2nd in assists, 15th in blocks, 10th in steals, 3rd in EFF.. Who else in this league can do that?

He's also likely on pace to make his 6th straight finals. Which Kobe didn't do, Duncan didn't do, Jordan didn't do, Larry didn't do, Magic didn't do, nobody has accomplished that feat since Bill Russell.

His shooting is down since Miami, which I think in large part is because he wants to win a ring in Cleveland and isn't focused on the efficient side of his game now that he's achieved what he achieved in Miami. But he's still scoring more efficiently than almost everyone in the league. Out of the top 30 scorers in the league he's 4th in FG%. Actually Kawhi is at 51% with LeBron, Durant, Curry at 50%. For someone who scores that efficiently does it really matter if his outside shooting percentage is trash right now?


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Yeah you can say that but let's be honest MJ would NOT of lost one year in the finals in the 90s. And yeah he can go to six in a row but what will he remember him as? Coming in 2nd in all but 2 or possibly 3 this year.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Yeah you can say that but let's be honest MJ would NOT of lost one year in the finals in the 90s. And yeah he can go to six in a row but what will he remember him as? Coming in 2nd in all but 2 or possibly 3 this year.

Yeah MJ probably would have 7-8 rings, not saying he wouldn't. But hypothetical doesn't exist in a situation like this. I could just as easily say he could have played that next year and lost in the finals and then never went on to win 3 more. Or he blew out a knee and was done.

Aside from the Dallas year he's played great and they've lost to better teams. A championship has and always will be a team award.

Him making 6 straight finals should be remembered as making 6 straight finals. Sports logic is bizarre in that some bulk of fans always believe that it's better to lose before the finals than lose during them.. That's a horrible mindset to have.


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[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Yeah you can say that but let's be honest MJ would NOT of lost one year in the finals in the 90s. And yeah he can go to six in a row but what will he remember him as? Coming in 2nd in all but 2 or possibly 3 this year.

Also I don't want to have the whole MJ argument because he's not even the topic of this discussion.. But did he ever meet a team better than his, a coach better than his in a finals matchup? Were Pippen and Rodman evert hurt and forced to sit for a finals series?

Also do we look back an remember him losing to Orlando? Or that his playoff record was 1-9 before he had Pippen. Or that he failed to win it all until he landed a HOF (possible GOAT) coach?

So many variables are in play in winning TEAM awards year after year. LeBron has definitely done his individual part.


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[Scott812313]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

And only a LeBron ***** would claim he hasn't been for awhile now?

I said up to this point. Not necessarily saying he's the best in the league this year. Though he's a better all around player than maybe anyone but Westbrook this season. Steph is the MVP though.

He's lazy on defense at times, and he is having a bad shooting year. The problem with LeBron is he's not "LeBron" until the playoffs. That's how he's been the last 3-4 years now. He also noticeably plays different against a team like Philly than he would going up against Durant or other stars. That's just who he is now, he's conservative. No different than Pop sitting his stars for games, or Wade playing half seasons really.

Last year in the playoffs he was noticeably still the best in the league. Led both teams in points, rebounds, assists in the finals. First time ever. Was responsible for about 58 of his teams points per game, most in finals history. Came damn close to averaging a 40ppg triple double. Through the playoffs he finished 2nd in scoring per game, 9th in rebounds, 2nd in assists, 15th in blocks, 10th in steals, 3rd in EFF.. Who else in this league can do that?

He's also likely on pace to make his 6th straight finals. Which Kobe didn't do, Duncan didn't do, Jordan didn't do, Larry didn't do, Magic didn't do, nobody has accomplished that feat since Bill Russell.

His shooting is down since Miami, which I think in large part is because he wants to win a ring in Cleveland and isn't focused on the efficient side of his game now that he's achieved what he achieved in Miami. But he's still scoring more efficiently than almost everyone in the league. Out of the top 30 scorers in the league he's 4th in FG%. Actually Kawhi is at 51% with LeBron, Durant, Curry at 50%. For someone who scores that efficiently does it really matter if his outside shooting percentage is trash right now?


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This dude put up a 41/22/73 line with 4 turnovers per game in the playoffs last year with an eFG% of 44. He wasn't by any means the best player last year in the playoffs. You're just looking at the counting stats, which he will always have because he dribbles the air out of the ball for 20 seconds and either drives or passes for an assist opportunity. It's the main reason he'll never win another ring, unless he goes chasing again, he's simply not efficient enough anymore to play that way.

[Kashanova]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Glad to See Lebron and Kobe was accurately ranked. Kobe has never been in my top 10, nor do I believe he should be. I do think top 15 is where he belongs. It'd be hard for me to have Kobe in my top 10, as I feel he was never the best player for a long period of time, his one MVP reflects that.

[Mikey3148]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Also I don't want to have the whole MJ argument because he's not even the topic of this discussion.. But did he ever meet a team better than his, a coach better than his in a finals matchup? Were Pippen and Rodman evert hurt and forced to sit for a finals series?

Also do we look back an remember him losing to Orlando? Or that his playoff record was 1-9 before he had Pippen. Or that he failed to win it all until he landed a HOF (possible GOAT) coach?

So many variables are in play in winning TEAM awards year after year. LeBron has definitely done his individual part.


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Yeah you're right on the whole Phil Jackson thing but, we are going to pentalize Mike for having the best team in the league (which was Mike, Scottie, Grant/Rodman and a bunch of role players) ? And yeah MJ couldn't get it done the 80s when he was young and didn't even people around him really. He dropped 63 against arguably the best team in the league at the time in his 2nd season (since he was out for the year the year before). He had a team built around him while LeBron. had to run from his "beloved" hometown to team up with 2 top 10 players in the NBA at the time to win his rings.