ESPN Top 100 list

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

I can't see anyone in the top 30 that should be moved out for a guy back in 85th spot.


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Moses Malone, Karl Malone, David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Kevin Durant, Kevin Garnett, Elgin Baylor, Chris Paul, and Steve Nash.

All those guys couldn't match DeBusschere's complete package. And I would also put Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars, Dennis Rodman, Jerry Lucas, Nate Thurmond, Dennis Johnson, Sam Jones, Lou Hudson, Hal Greer and Lenny Wilkens in the top 50.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

What do you consider lacking from David Robinson? Only singling him out because I've often felt he's a tad bit underrated, which is usually the opposite when it's a "90's guy" in discussion.


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[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

What do you consider lacking from David Robinson? Only singling him out because I've often felt he's a tad bit underrated, which is usually the opposite when it's a "90's guy" in discussion.


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Robinson was all finesse and no power. He couldn't pass or handle. He missed free throws and jumpers in the clutch all the time. He could play weak side defense but couldn't contain serious scorers with face and go capabilities. A good player but not an all timer, I feel.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Robinson was all finesse and no power. He couldn't pass or handle. He missed free throws and jumpers in the clutch all the time. He could play weak side defense but couldn't contain serious scorers with face and go capabilities. A good player but not an all timer, I feel.

Fair enough


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[Jeffx]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Dave DeBusschere is too low. He is top 30 or so for me. He was a powerful defender and rebounder with 25 foot shooting range. His rival was Gus Johnson, another all time defender, who I don't see listed. Shameful, Gus was easily top 50.

Amen, brother.

And those Knicks/Bullets games back in the day were S-E-R-I-O-U-S. It was a great rivalry.

[J_Posse]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Robinson was all finesse and no power. He couldn't pass or handle. He missed free throws and jumpers in the clutch all the time. He could play weak side defense but couldn't contain serious scorers with face and go capabilities. A good player but not an all timer, I feel.

Couldn't disagree with you more. David was an elite athlete (maybe top 5 all-time at his position), he was an elite rebounder, an all-time great help defender and one of the few big men that could bother Shaquille O'Neal (even outplayed him during his prime). David was a notorious playoff underachiever, but he never played with a another great teammate until Tim Duncan arrived.

That is without mentioning his offensive game, that you will say was "rudimentary," but somehow his "rudimentary" offense allowed him to lead the league in scoring.

David was easily better than every player you mentioned and especially the highly overrated (in your eye's) Dennis Rodman. Only a crazy man would place a lunatic, cancerous and disruptive role player like Rodman in the company of Robinson.

Silliest and worst HOF choice ever, IMO. (Rodman is who I'm speaking of......)

from Spurs Nation/Bills Backer HQ

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Athletically, I would agree that Robinson was close to top five at the position. He could really run and jump. He couldn't board in a crowd of strongmen. Outplaying Shaq in his prime? I don't remember that. Orlando and Los Angeles pre-Jackson ran some predictable scoring attacks.

I was always a Sean Elliot fan. He was plenty good enough to win with. I would class Dennis Rodman as a Hall of Fame role player. The point is that with a modicum of talent a true superstar will raise the respective games of his teammates.

Robinson was very talented and the Spurs routinely pointed the ball at him. It isn't surprising that he led the league in scoring.

I disagree. I think the players I named influenced ball games more than Robinson. Rodman was an incredible defender and rebounder. Defense makes up about 55% of the game and Rodman could guard three positions effectively.

I think Rodman certainly belongs in the Hall. I could easily name 30 guys who have no business being in Springfield over Rodman.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

More often than not if player A is a player you can build your team around, and player B isn't, then player A is likely the better player.

From the year Robinson came into the league he made 7 all defensive teams which is the same amount that Rodman had in that span, he was the defensive player of the year once to Rodman's two DPOY awards, he was the league MVP, he's led the league in scoring, rebounding, blocks.. He's on of the most well rounded stars of his era.

I'm not going to touch on the far back players, but having watched Robinson and Rodman for myself I will say that those two aren't even close.

This is the top 100 players list. There are no extra brownie point for winning a ring as a 6th man, or as a defined role rebounder. If you aren't better than someone you shouldn't be listed as. There are plenty of players who have had similar careers, some players who might even be better, yet they aren't anywhere to be found on this list. Rodman somehow lands in the top 65? If it weren't for his rings he wouldn't even be in the top 100, much less listed nearly half way down the list.

Rodman played in 6 NBA finals. 4 of them he was a non starter. In only 2 of them did he play at least 30 minutes a game.

Rodman should be recognized as one of the greatest, if not the greatest, rebounders to ever play the game. As well as one of the best and most well rounded defenders of his era. Aside from that, his name amongst anything "all time" probably shouldn't even be mentioned. I have no problem with him landing in the HOF. A player who can be recognized as maybe the best rebounder ever, and play a big role in 5 championships should be in the HOF.. But this list isn't the HOF.



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[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Defense makes up about 55% of the game and Rodman could guard three positions effectively.

This statement simply isn't true. The fact that the best defenders would/could never stop the best scorers makes the percentage to be under half already. And the fact that 5 guys, and team defense, FAR outweighs what an individual can do brings the percentage even lower.

Rodman is one of the best defenders I've ever been alive to witness. But even in saying that I believe you could make a case that Robinson even had more value at that end simply for being an elite shot blocker..

Other than the era we are currently watching I'm not sure any wing defender has ever had the league value that a shot blocker has. You can/could build an entire defensive game plan around good rim protection.


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[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

The NBA's field goal percentage is around 45% which means that the defense triumphs 55% of the time. In screen/rolls it is important for five men to be alert with the rotations yes. Inevitably though the game comes down to one on one situations. Here, it is vital to have the serious chest to chest defender that can force the shot under heavy pressure.

Robinson had incredible range on his baseline rotations I agree. However, the many points he surrendered in one on one confrontations negated most of his saving blocks.

You can build an entire defensive game plan around good rim protection. Think Bill Russell or Nate Thurmond. Not David Robinson.

[VDusen04]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Robinson was all finesse and no power. He couldn't pass or handle. He missed free throws and jumpers in the clutch all the time. He could play weak side defense but couldn't contain serious scorers with face and go capabilities. A good player but not an all timer, I feel.

A lot of sweeping statements here with little fact backing things up. For a true seven-foot center (listed 7'1''), I thought his handles were outstanding for a man his size.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/CKVqpXl3M18" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Obviously, he was never expected to isolate and operate like he was Allen Iverson or something but for his position, the fellow could handle the rock, and he was quick off the dribble to boot, which is a large reason why he was so dangerous offensively (facing up and blowing by defenders off the dribble): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVuMMxBChs8#t=3m18s).

Moreover, you flatly state that Robinson couldn't pass. The 1994 Spurs ran out Negele Knight as their starting point guard that season. Robinson responded by leading his team in assists, as well as ever other major statistical category outside of rebounding (because Rodman, though Robinson still grabbed 11 a night there). The Spurs often ran their offense through Robinson at the elbow and high post, in large part because he was such a capable passer.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/KkpT0QdUDIY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

He was still a scorer through and through, but saying he couldn't pass is being disingenuous, unless we're using Magic Johnson, John Stockton, and Bob Cousy as his measuring sticks.

He missed free throws and jumpers in the clutch all the time.

I'm certain Robinson, like every other center who ever lived, missed free throws and other shots in the clutch. But what basis is there to suggest he did so all the time? Any reference? Is that just what you remember?

He could play weak side defense but couldn't contain serious scorers with face and go capabilities.

Robinson was handled by '95 Hakeem via single coverage in the 1995 WCF. And no one stopped Shaquille O'Neal (Shaq averaged 28 points and shot 60% against Hakeem in the Finals that year). So if we're only talking about stopping two of the game's most unstoppable forces, Robinson had his share of struggles. That said, battles were often much closer to even during all other matchups between Robinson and Olajuwon (though he always struggled stopping O'Neal... join the club, so did Hakeem).

Robinson vs. Olajuwon head-to-head comparison: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=robinda01

Robinson was all finesse and no power.

Very popular and easy critique that people have made for years, largely because Robinson didn't scream, taunt, or flex and lived an openly gentle life off the court. He was still capable of dishing things like this out as needed:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Jt4zQ0zI9GE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The NBA's field goal percentage is around 45% which means that the defense triumphs 55% of the time. In screen/rolls it is important for five men to be alert with the rotations yes. Inevitably, though the game comes down to one on one situations. Here, it is vital to have the serious chest to chest defender that can force the shot under heavy pressure.

Robinson had incredible range on his baseline rotations I agree. However, the many points he surrendered in one on one confrontations negated most of his saving blocks.

You can build an entire defensive game plan around good rim protection. Think Bill Russell or Nate Thurmond. Not David Robinson.

Just a head's up, concluding the game of basketball if 55% defense because teams only shoot 45% really, really, really oversimplifies matters, as if an offense would shoot 100% if a defense didn't contest their shots well. Assuming a squad isn't just giving up uncontested layups on literally every single play (at which point the opposition still may miss one here or there), a team's field goal percentage has a ton to do with each offensive player's ability to make a given shot, whether open or contested.

Basically, it doesn't really work to play the "defense is 55 percent of the game" card simply based off of field goal percentages, for it skips over the hundreds, if not thousands, of other factors that go into a team's field goal percentage.

All that said, I've noticed a lot of words being written in terms of tearing down David Robinson but there hasn't been a lot said in Dave DeBusschere's regard aside from saying he was a powerful defender and rebounder with 25-foot range.

At its core, David Robinson was a guy who averaged 26 points, 12 rebounds, 4 blocks, 2 steals, and 3 assists during his seven-year prime. He took turns leading the league in three different major statistical categories (Points, Rebounds, Blocks), was a consummate professional and turned any roster he was a part of into a 55-game winner (even if his second leading scorer was a past-his-prime Dale Ellis).

Dave DeBusschere is an undoubted Hall of Famer, and he played a big role in those NBA championship runs when the Knicks were stocked with fellow Hall of Famers Walt Frazier, Willis Reed, Bill Bradley, and Earl Monroe. But I can't see a way to argue a head-to-head matchup with David Robinson in his favor, aside from using non-specific anecdotes like, "Dave DeBusschere was a man's man who knew how to get the job done. Robinson wasn't."

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

For sure, his handle was good enough to get him through a broken field. Not good enough to carry the ball through a crowd though.

At 2:40 of the third video Robinson takes his left hand to to the middle and uses a fake, the defender doesn't bite but Robinson gets bailed out with the whistle. That was his favorite move and smart defenders could react to it appropriately.

Anyways, the clips are impressive but not unexpected of a talented and skilled guy like Robinson. A big man who can score on drop off passes, put backs, and flying dunks on the run is very valuable.

You didn't see the tight spins or drop-steps, the duck-unders or step throughs. Where are the off-handed hooks? Moreover, most of his catches were far removed from the basket.

Passwork? Decent in these clips. Simplistic though. Where are the complicated skip or out passes? Passes on the move?

Robinson's assist to turnover ratio in the regular season: 2.5:2.4
In the playoffs: 2.3:2.3

Robinson's field goal and free throw % in the regular season: 51.8: 73.6
In the playoffs: 47.9:70.8

Am I tearing Robinson down or giving a realistic appraisal of his game? Robinson was very talented and he put up big numbers. Still, when it comes to scoring, rebounding, blocking, ect WHEN a player does these deeds is more important than the sheer total.

Any direct comparison between DeBusschere and Robinson is useless. Their respective jobs were too different. For me though, DeBusshere's total package was heavier than Robinson's.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Glad yall are handling this Robinson topic...didn't feel like typing lol

[VDusen04]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

For sure, his handle was good enough to get him through a broken field. Not good enough to carry the ball through a crowd though.

Excellent. Prior, you'd mentioned that David Robinson couldn't handle ("He couldn't pass or handle."). This new statement appears to be an acknowledgement that he could, in fact, handle. I'll take that.

At 2:40 of the third video Robinson takes his left hand to to the middle and uses a fake, the defender doesn't bite but Robinson gets bailed out with the whistle. That was his favorite move and smart defenders could react to it appropriately.

Dribbling to his left was one of the things David Robinson often did on the basketball court, but I'd step well short of calling it his favorite move. He also boasted an effective lefty hook, a reliable turn and fade from the baseline, and deadly range extending outward that opened up his driving lanes.

Not to mention, none of that touches on the fact that he was one of the quickest and hardest pushing centers of all-time, frequently killing opposing teams by running the floor, filling the lane, and finishing in transition.

Anyways, the clips are impressive but not unexpected of a talented and skilled guy like Robinson. A big man who can score on drop off passes, put backs, and flying dunks on the run is very valuable.

... And jumpers, and hooks, and fallaways from the baseline, and in the open floor after picking pockets, and in transition while filling lanes.

You didn't see the tight spins or drop-steps, the duck-unders or step throughs. Where are the off-handed hooks? Moreover, most of his catches were far removed from the basket.

We're talking about a guy who averaged 30 points per game while shooting 51 percent from the floor, no? On one hand, most of those moves (drop-steps, up-and-unders, step-throughs) were in his arsenal but weren't always his go-to moves. On the other hand, if you can drop 30 a night with that kind of efficiency, I'd say his arsenal was probably pretty effective as it is. It'd be akin to criticizing Shaquille O'Neal for not hitting enough face-up jumpers.

Passwork? Decent in these clips. Simplistic though. Where are the complicated skip or out passes? Passes on the move?

Robinson's assist to turnover ratio in the regular season: 2.5:2.4
In the playoffs: 2.3:2.3

Excellent, so now after ""He couldn't pass or handle", we've moved up to "Decent". That's what I was going for.

Moreover, for whatever it's worth, citing a center's assist-to-turnover ratio isn't a great illustration of their passing skills (and is even just a part of the picture for ball-dominant playmakers). That said, if we're going to chat about it, Robinson's assists-to-turnover ratio was better than that of Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Patrick Ewing.

Robinson's field goal and free throw % in the regular season: 51.8: 73.6
In the playoffs: 47.9:70.8

Worth noting that both sets of digits eclipse Dave DeBusschere's numbers, the man for whom you'd have replace Robinson in the top 30.

When it comes to scoring, rebounding, blocking, ect WHEN a player does these deeds is more important than the sheer total.

Sure, and that's why David Robinson averaged 24 points, 12 boards, and 3 blocks in his playoff prime before his injury in '96-'97.

That's the danger of looking flatly at career playoff statistics. Robinson's prime is unique since his was in the Navy and didn't make his NBA debut until he was 24. By the time Tim Duncan came around, just seven years into Robinson's career, he was already 32 (aka one season before Dave DeBusschere hung 'em up). Robinson would go on to play another half decade, willfully taking a back seat to Duncan and seeing his career playoff numbers take a hit as a result.

Even then, sure, the blemishes remain, even in his prime, most notably the Utah series (though it's worth noting Dennis Rodman was the only other top-five scorer to shoot over 39.5 percent for the series, making a "swarm-David-and-force-somebody-else-to-beat-us" gameplan pretty simple, straight forward, and effective). Even when Hakeem was bounced in similar first round fashion by L.A. after averaging 18 points on 44 percent shooting, he still received way more contributions from his peers.

But I digress.

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

When I say that a guy can't pass or handle I mean that he can't do it at an outstanding level. Not that he literally isn't capable of it.

Taking his left hand to the middle and faking was indeed his favorite move. It was highly defensible too by any disciplined player. His effective shooting range was about 15 feet.

A center who can actively participate in the running game is valuable indeed. Many of his points were registered on drop-off passes, putbacks, and opportunistic hustle. This type of big man that score big points without having his number called is valuable, agreed.

His offensive arsenal was highly effective against certain teams. Against the smarter, better defenses in the playoffs he could be contained.

Shaquille O'Neal had much more in his bag of tricks than Robinson did. He could also put so much pressure on a defense that the only recourse was to foul him, something Robinson was incapable of doing.

The highlighted passing clips were "decent" but very simplistic. I prefer watching full ball games to accurately scout any player. And comparing Robinson's passwork with other below par passers does not elevate him in any way.

DeBusschere mostly shot long balls from 20 plus feet out. Robinson's field goal percentage was juiced by drop-off passes from penetrating smalls. Again their jobs were so different as to make any statistical comparison silly.

Robinson settled nicely into his role as a jump-shooter and shot-blocker while Tim Duncan did all the heavy lifting.