ESPN Top 100 list

[VDusen04]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

When I say that a guy can't pass or handle I mean that he can't do it at an outstanding level. Not that he literally isn't capable of it.

It may be a matter of semantics, but saying someone "can't pass or handle" not only suggests they weren't outstanding at those skills, but it also suggests they were poor at those particular crafts. It's like me saying Dave DeBusschere can't shoot then falling back and saying "I didn't mean he literally couldn't shoot, just that he wasn't as good as the game's absolute best."

In its original context, it comes across as a sweeping means of cutting down Robinson's game. We could either say he was a capable passer for a center, or even an above-average one still not on the level of Bill Walton or even Kevin Love... or we could just say, "Meh, can't pass or dribble.", the last of which is only going to create misleading confusion.

Taking his left hand to the middle and faking was indeed his favorite move. It was highly defensible too by any disciplined player. His effective shooting range was about 15 feet.

We'll have to agree to disagree in regards to Robinson's favorite move. He dug the left-handed drive, just like most like driving with their strong hand, too. But to arbitrarily pluck it out as his favorite move isn't necessarily something that can be readily confirmed, particularly when he had a killer mid-range J, a strong lefty hook, and yes, even an up-and-under always at his disposal.

His offensive arsenal was highly effective against certain teams. Against the smarter, better defenses in the playoffs he could be contained.

Yes, great defensive teams could sometimes contain him to a degree in the playoffs. And oftentimes not.

Shaquille O'Neal had much more in his bag of tricks than Robinson did. He could also put so much pressure on a defense that the only recourse was to foul him, something Robinson was incapable of doing.

Absolutely. Shaquille O'Neal was better than David Robinson. The analogy was, criticizing David Robinson for not spinning more on the baseline while he's averaging 30 points on 51% shooting through other means is like criticizing Shaquille O'Neal because he's not shooting enough jumpers while dominating through his own means.

Would an Hakeem-like arsenal have benefited Robinson? It would have been gross. Would shooting range have benefited Shaquille O'Neal? Unfathomable. Point remains: both were legendary performers regardless.

DeBusschere mostly shot long balls from 20 plus feet out. Robinson's field goal percentage was juiced by drop-off passes from penetrating smalls. Again their jobs were so different as to make any statistical comparison silly.

Sure, though that doesn't excuse DeBusschere's fluctuating mediocrity at the free throw line. And he did love cranking from 15-20 feet, but that wasn't mostly what he shot (though we'll then have to sit here and argue about what "mostly" means).

Regardless, the general premise is agreeable, it's tough to compare those two statistically head-to-head. But in terms of overall skills and impact at their respective positions, I haven't heard or seen a lot to suggest DeBusschere should bump Robinson in the Top 30.

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

I would say Robinson was below average to poor in the passing department. The highlighted clips were "decent" but a full ballgame would reveal his misfires as well.

You didn't see the Hall of Fame type moves that history's top bigs all had. More than just scoring big points, I look for the quality of the moves.

Much more often than not the top defenses would contain Robinson. Yes, he scored 30 points per game on 51% shooting but its all about 'how' he is doing it for me. He didn't force the defense to make radical adjustments to account for him.

DeBusschere's free throw percentage in the regular season was 69.9 compared to his playoff percentage of 69.8. His field goal percentage was 43.2 compared to his playoff percentage of 41.6. He was fairly consistent with his hand mechanics.

Robinson's free throw percentage in the regular season was 73.6 compared to his playoff percentage of 70.8. His regular season field goal percentage was 51.8 compared to his playoff percentage of 47.9. His shooting numbers took a distressing dive in the playoffs.

DeBusschere averaged about three jumpers for every one drive. He mostly shot long balls. I would put DeBusschere up against anyone at the '4' spot in terms of overall skills.

[VDusen04]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

I would say Robinson was below average to poor in the passing department. The highlighted clips were "decent" but a full ballgame would reveal his misfires as well.

You didn't see the Hall of Fame type moves that history's top bigs all had. More than just scoring big points, I look for the quality of the moves.

Much more often than not the top defenses would contain Robinson. Yes, he scored 30 points per game on 51% shooting but its all about 'how' he is doing it for me. He didn't force the defense to make radical adjustments to account for him.

DeBusschere's free throw percentage in the regular season was 69.9 compared to his playoff percentage of 69.8. His field goal percentage was 43.2 compared to his playoff percentage of 41.6. He was fairly consistent with his hand mechanics.

Robinson's free throw percentage in the regular season was 73.6 compared to his playoff percentage of 70.8. His regular season field goal percentage was 51.8 compared to his playoff percentage of 47.9. His shooting numbers took a distressing dive in the playoffs.

DeBusschere averaged about three jumpers for every one drive. He mostly shot long balls. I would put DeBusschere up against anyone at the '4' spot in terms of overall skills.

Ah, it seems we're just spinning our wheels. At its core, we're still working off this:

Robinson was all finesse and no power. He couldn't pass or handle. He missed free throws and jumpers in the clutch all the time. He could play weak side defense but couldn't contain serious scorers with face and go capabilities. A good player but not an all timer, I feel.

And so far, we've got:

-Robinson was a capable passer whose numbers in this regard (assists, assists-to-turnover ratio) are in line or exceed that of all his contemporaries at his position (Patrick Ewing, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, Dikembe Mutombo).

-He's a capable ball handler, particularly in a straight line, who couldn't handle as well in traffic but also rates well in comparison to just about any and every center in NBA history.

-No real proof that he played with zero power.

-No proof showing he missed free throws and jumpers in the clutch all the time (aside from simply pointing at his career playoff statistics, seeing a small dip in numbers compared to his career regular season averages and assuming unfounded conclusions while ignoring that the bulk of his free throw troubles came in his mid-30's, well past his prime while operating with the back of an 80-year-old).

-Zero proof regarding his inability to defend one-on-one against players with face-and-go ability ('95 Hakeem would be a good hypothetical example if any other center was even sort of able to keep him in check. Otherwise, just another sweeping generalization).

-Nothing in the way of fact to suggest that Dave DeBusschere should replace him among the Top 30 players of all-time.

-He's a guy who took turns leading the league in scoring, rebounding, and blocks while leading a moribund franchise from the edge of the abyss and immediately back into relevance and contention while standing in as a model teammate and repeated MVP candidate (and eventual MVP winner).

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

I would say Robinson was below average to poor in the passing department. The highlighted clips were "decent" but a full ballgame would reveal his misfires as well.

You didn't see the Hall of Fame type moves that history's top bigs all had. More than just scoring big points, I look for the quality of the moves.

Much more often than not the top defenses would contain Robinson. Yes, he scored 30 points per game on 51% shooting but its all about 'how' he is doing it for me. He didn't force the defense to make radical adjustments to account for him.

DeBusschere's free throw percentage in the regular season was 69.9 compared to his playoff percentage of 69.8. His field goal percentage was 43.2 compared to his playoff percentage of 41.6. He was fairly consistent with his hand mechanics.

Robinson's free throw percentage in the regular season was 73.6 compared to his playoff percentage of 70.8. His regular season field goal percentage was 51.8 compared to his playoff percentage of 47.9. His shooting numbers took a distressing dive in the playoffs.

DeBusschere averaged about three jumpers for every one drive. He mostly shot long balls. I would put DeBusschere up against anyone at the '4' spot in terms of overall skills.

I feel like you're nitpicking here.

Discussing his passing in this type of depth seems pointless, he's not a guard after all. You could find plenty instances I'm sure of him making bad passes. You can also find plenty instances of Hakeem looking like a black hole. I don't really consider it fair to judge a centers passing ability when his strength was to be a scorer. Not many all time great bigs are/were great passers, and those who weren't also a top scorer in the league.

Also judging the quality of his moves is moot in the discussion as well. The point is that he didn't need more aesthetically pleasing moves to be effective. Just like Jordan never needed the advanced moves with the dribble to be a great scorer. A fan favoring Curry could make the same claim against Jordan that you are with David. I'm sure you could counter with the aspects Jordan was great at, Robinson has his own as well.

You mention he didn't force defenses to make radical adjustments, but how did some of the guys you're mentioning ahead of him do that? Rodman, DeBusschere, etc. I can't specially pinpoint the exact changes teams made for him, hell its been 20 years. But I thoroughly remember him being a beast that teams did have to worry about every night. Among probably the top 5ish scorers of his era during his peak, and whether major adjustments were made or not that alone was enough to cause problems.

You're also penalizing Robinson for a slight drop in percentages from the regular season to the playoffs, and praising DeBusschere for staying more consistent. The whole time ignoring the fact that even with the drop Robinson's are still better than his. The 3% drop in his numbers is a very minimal drop. He would have to take 31 shots before that percentage drop would equate to a full one shot missed difference.




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[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Robinson was a poor passer who was almost as likely to turn it over as he was to throw an assist pass. Comparing him to other poor passers does not give him a boost.

A straight line handle but you would like to see more dazzle in a face-the-basket big. He didn't play with power as evidenced by most of your clips showing him catching the ball on a wing and shooting jumpers. I said I didn't see any power spins, drop steps, or step throughs. The types of transcendent moves that force the defense to make radical adjustments.

I've watched Robinson consistently come up empty in the clutch many times. A 4% drop in Playoff field goal accuracy is considerable and concerning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVzzHVzb-KM

Dave DeBusschere's defense was so overwhelming that he could totally stymie the opponent's offensive schemes. He could capture rebounds in a nasty crowd. He ran the court, set screens, and made snappy passes. The considerable number of points he scored on long bombs and courageous power drives was a bonus. The Knicks went from a good team to a Champion because of DeBusschere's arrival.

Robinson was a highly talented player and he put up good numbers. He was the type of guy that could turn a poor team into a good one. He wasn't good enough to get over the hump though. The MVP is voted on by media members and is therefore bogus.

[VDusen04]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Robinson was a poor passer who was almost as likely to turn it over as he was to throw an assist pass. Comparing him to other poor passers does not give him a boost.

A straight line handle but you would like to see more dazzle in a face-the-basket big.

To clarify, the issue was your statement saying that David Robinson "can't pass or handle". For a center, it's been illustrated that Robinson could, in fact, pass and handle. Unless we're about to go down the line and penalize all great centers not named Bill Walton (O'Neal, Olajuwon, Ewing) for all having assist-to-turnover ratios that pale in comparison to their backcourt counterparts, it makes little sense to focus on this aspect aside from correctly asserting that Robinson could, in fact, pass.

Moreover, it's worth noting once more that a center's passing ability is not largely based upon whether his passes directly result in an assist, particularly if they're scoring hubs like Robinson, Olajuwon, and O'Neal. Instead, a lot of that passing skill comes from being able to move the ball out of the post, recognize double teams and react, and make the pass that leads to the pass that leads to the bucket (not to mention the skill of outlet passing).

When discussing passing centers, Walton comes to mind, as does Kevin Love. But in terms of whether Robinson was a poor passing center? Nope. That short-handed squad in '94 thrived while running their offense through Robinson for a reason—because for a center, he could be relied upon to make sound passes. In contrast, put Andre Drummond in that position and it's an unmitigated disaster.

He didn't play with power as evidenced by most of your clips showing him catching the ball on a wing and shooting jumpers. I said I didn't see any power spins, drop steps, or step throughs. The types of transcendent moves that force the defense to make radical adjustments.

Your line was "Robinson was all finesse and no power." Call it nitpicking, but there's a difference between saying someone preferred to rely upon finesse more than power and flat out saying a player literally played with no power.

While Robinson had a drop-step and step-through, getting killed on the offensive end, regardless of how a player's doing it, is what forces a defense to make radical adjustments. If squads didn't want to make adjustments after Robinson kept dropping 40, 15, and 7 on them (like he did Hakeem in '94), that's the opposition's problem, not his.

There's not going to be a lot of coaches out there who'll say, "Yeah, I mean, he's on pace for 70, but he's only doing it by hitting jumpers, blowing past my centers off the dribble, working his way inside for hook after hook, and beating my guards down the floor. I'm not going to make any adjustments until he shows me an up-and-under though."

I've watched Robinson consistently come up empty in the clutch many times. A 4% drop in Playoff field goal accuracy is considerable and concerning.

Alright, definition time. Does "clutch" just another way for you to say "playoffs"? Or are you actually talking about late game moments like, say, the last two minutes of a close game? If the latter (which is generally closer to what folks consider clutch), what moments do you recall where he just flat out missed jumpers and free throws he otherwise would have drilled?

I'll say this, I'm absolutely certain he came up empty in the clutch before. Everybody does. Michael Jordan did. Kobe Bryant did. Dave DeBusschere did. But it feels as though "I've watched Robinson consistently come up empty in the clutch many times" is just a leap of faith with no true recollection of moments as a means of pushing the field goal percentage drop.

Regardless, it helps to have some sort of perspective or frame of reference when drawing conclusions about these numbers. For instance, Robinson's career playoff field goal percentage took a big hit from a single series in '94 when the Jazz famously bum-rushed San Antonio in the first round, making radical adjustments on Robinson as a means of forcing his teammates to beat them (they didn't).

Moreover, Robinson had two pretty bad shooting performances in the '95 playoffs (6-26, 5-17) but they only tell a fraction of the story. The first performance came in a seven-point win over the Lakers, when he scored 22 points anyway (hitting all 10 of his free throws, no less), grabbed 16 rebounds, dished six assists, and blocked five shots. The other performance came in a one-point loss to Houston. He followed that up by shooting 20-of-33 over his next two games (21-of-23 from the line) in 32 and 29-point performances.

It would have been awesome if Robinson never struggled in the playoffs. But taking his career totals (especially when it accounts for post-injury mid-30's Robinson) isn't going to tell us a lot up front.

Not to mention, even if career field goal percentage was a tell-all (it's not), it'd still be miles ahead of whatever Nate Thurmond brought to the table in that regard, another player you stated belonged in the Top 50 (though as long as you're not talking about replacing Robinson with him in the Top 30, it's not as much of an issue).

Dave DeBusschere's defense was so overwhelming that he could totally stymie the opponent's offensive schemes. He could capture rebounds in a nasty crowd. He ran the court, set screens, and made snappy passes. The considerable number of points he scored on long bombs was a bonus. The Knicks went from a good team to a Champion because of DeBusschere's arrival.

It's a nice narrative, and I don't love the idea of having to debate on the wrong side of Dave DeBusschere because he's a hometown guy through and through and did nothing but great things for our city. But you're still just throwing out narrative with nothing that really lends one to believe he belongs in the top 30 instead of David Robinson.

The MVP is voted on by media members and is therefore bogus.

Haha, hilarious sidestepping conclusion, I'll give you that.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Dave DeBusschere's defense was so overwhelming that he could totally stymie the opponent's offensive schemes. He could capture rebounds in a nasty crowd. He ran the court, set screens, and made snappy passes. The considerable number of points he scored on long bombs and courageous power drives was a bonus. The Knicks went from a good team to a Champion because of DeBusschere's arrival.

Robinson was a highly talented player and he put up good numbers. He was the type of guy that could turn a poor team into a good one. He wasn't good enough to get over the hump though. The MVP is voted on by media members and is therefore bogus.

You're starting to sound somewhat silly by intentionally making the biggest reaches you possibly can to down play certain players and build up others by throwing out random "courageous" "nasty crowd" things of that nature.

I get and understand that you may tend to favor players with a gritty style of play to them, and that's fine if that is your basketball preference. I think most people prefer to watch players with an intense and hard-nose style of play. But that doesn't make them better than players automatically.

You're building up DeBusschere by saying he was the Knicks missing piece.. And maybe he was. But in turn you're saying Robinson couldn't get over the hump, even though he did.. Are you suggesting that if he signed, or were traded, to a team that had the equivalent of Frazier, Monroe, Lucas, Reed, etc that he couldn't have been the "missing piece" as well? That's a funny way to make a claim.

The MVP award CAN be bogus. It isn't always bogus. Robinson earned the one he received. I don't know how you could argue he didn't. 7 straight years he finished in the top 10, 5 of those years he was in the top 5. That is sustained excellence.

You're overplaying DeBusschere's defense as well. Even if he was far and away the greatest defender who ever lived he's not what you're attempting to prop him up as. No individual defender is. Just some of his games against Baylor - 35, 31, 36, 38, 42, 36, 41, 49, 31, 35, 38, 47. Seems like Baylor didn't quite know how to handle that overwhelming defense.


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[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Robinson could make only the most simplistic deliveries. Usually zipping it right back out up top. The passes easiest for a defense to plot against. Other centers who were outstanding passers? Wes Unseld, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry Lucas, and Jack Sikma.

Being able to establish deep post position is of vital importance for a big. Once the ball is positioned in the shadow of the basket, the defense must contort into unsound aligments or risk giving up an easy two points. Robinson couldn't hold his ground. Instead he caught the ball on a wing and drove his left hand to the middle hoping the defender would bite on his up fake. If the defender didn't bite Robinson was in trouble as I pointed out in the clip. And how many points did Robinson get off drop-off passes from penetrators? The easy adjustment there is for the defender to contain the ball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO-A8Yp3Xz0

Nate Thurmond was certainly a more influential presence on the court than Robinson was. He could actually rebound in a crowd and he loved the man to man confrontations in the low post. After Bill Russell, I would call Nate Thurmond the best defender at the '5' in NBA history.

Hakeem Olajuwon demonstrated what a true MVP is in his direct confrontation with Robinson in the playoffs. Other players more deserving than Robinson include Shaquille O'Neal, Scottie Pippen, John Stockton, and Shawn Kemp.

Listing Elgin Baylor's scoring output with no mention of who those points were scored against or in what manner? Meaningless.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Hakeem Olajuwon demonstrated what a true MVP is in his direct confrontation with Robinson in the playoffs. Other players more deserving than Robinson include Shaquille O'Neal, Scottie Pippen, John Stockton, and Shawn Kemp.

Listing Elgin Baylor's scoring output with no mention of who those points were scored against or in what manner? Meaningless.

Shawn Kemp never deserved anything close to an MVP, he's easily one of the most overrated players of the 90's decade. Wasn't a great rebounder, wasn't a great defender, completely careless with the ball and never grasped the concept of when to go 100 miles per hour and when not to, extremely turnover prone, a worse passer than what you're describing with Robinson. Probably a less effective post game as well. Wasn't a great shooter with limited range for a forward. Wildly inconsistent shooter in his prime, though that improved during his Cleveland years some. Outstanding power finisher with a decent big man floater.. That's about it.

I won't argue against Stockton, because I feel he's the best pure point guard I've seen play and is often under appreciated because of the praise Malone gets.. But at least he had Malone, Robinson never had that equal level sidekick to propel him.

Pippen's longevity as a great two way and all around player deserve props. At their peaks Robinson I believe was better. We saw Pippen without Jordan, we saw Robinson finish ahead of him in MVP voting those two years too. I became a hardcore basketball fan from watching those Bull's squads. That was my team. And being from Arkansas I was, by default, a huge Pippen fan. But I can't give him the nod here.. For his career yes, but I would take Robinson at their respected peaks. Chalk that up as a tie for me.

I have no idea who was defending Baylor in those games. Just seemed logically it would be DeBusschere since they positionally would be matched up and it's the best scoring forward vs would you say is the best defensive forward during their era.


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[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Shawn Kemp was more powerful and explosive than Robinson was. His pull-up jumpers from 15-18 feet were automatic. His handle was good enough to enable him to assault the basket. Certainly, his crossovers were more efficient. His post game consisted of tight spins, back downs, and turnarounds. A much more unpredictable post player than Robinson was.

Stockton and Pippen also gave their respective teams more vital contributions than did Robinson.

[PabloLFC]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

I know retired players tend to be heavily biased to their era but I didn't realise how bad the fans could be.

[VDusen04]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Hakeem Olajuwon demonstrated what a true MVP is in his direct confrontation with Robinson in the playoffs. Other players more deserving than Robinson include Shaquille O'Neal, Scottie Pippen, John Stockton, and Shawn Kemp.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Unpredictable because he was wild. His jumper was far from automatic. NBA.com only goes back to the 96 season, but Kemp shot 30% from 10-14ft, 38% from 15-19ft.

I would even go as far as saying that if you were to swap Kemp for Robinson that Seattle might have gotten a title.

Kemp never even made an All-NBA first team, or either defensive team. Highest he ever finished in an MVP race was tied for 7th (with MJ gone), and has 5 player of the week awards compared to Robinson's 15, 0 player of the month to Robinson's 4. Not that those numbers mean much, just stretching the fact that Kemp was never recognized to be at that level. In fact, the only thing he ever led the league in was fouls.


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[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Kemp gave the Sonics a much better chance of winning a Title as evidenced by his domination of the 96 Bulls in the Finals, one of the best defensive teams of all time. They had no answer for Kemp. Robinson never dominated at that level of competition.

Kemp most certainly deserved to make an All-NBA first team. His failing to do so shows how little those awards matter. His defense was not at an All-NBA level though, not close. But neither was Robinson's whose occasional blocks were negated by the many points he surrendered in hand to hand combat.

[PabloLFC]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

I think that last part was about Sugar Ray Robinson. Hand to hand combat?