ESPN Top 100 list

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Better by 46% compared to 45% isn't really saying much, also noted that 3 point shooting brings them down a hair, they both shoot better from 2 than he. It would be tough to gauge for considering how different their shots and shot distances would be. Seemingly players from that era found themselves pretty open on anything 15 feet and out. Like I said, not really that interested in arguing that other stuff for hours on here.

Curious, why haven't you posted your "charts" and whatever else here? Do you have a blog or detailed breakdown somewhere that includes all of that? Would be a good read.

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Better by 46% compared to 45% isn't really saying much, also noted that 3 point shooting brings them down a hair, they both shoot better from 2 than he. It would be tough to gauge for considering how different their shots and shot distances would be. Seemingly players from that era found themselves pretty open on anything 15 feet and out. Like I said, not really that interested in arguing that other stuff for hours on here.

Curious, why haven't you posted your "charts" and whatever else here? Do you have a blog or detailed breakdown somewhere that includes all of that? Would be a good read.

For roughly the first five years of Monroe's career there was no pre-game shootaround so the players spent much of the first quarter trying to break a sweat and get dialed in. Shooting was less refined back then as well. Today teams are much more efficient in generating the shots that they want and the players are very skilled.

Thompson and Allen do not shoot better from 15-18 feet than Monroe who I had at about 45% on more than 80 views. Thompson and Allen are both at about 44% from that range which is still very good.

There isn't much demand for historical research to my knowledge. I have made calls to certain folks and there is little money to be made.

[Kashanova]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

I've always said Kobe was vastly overrated and not a top 10 all-time player. People would say that makes me a *****, but it doesn't I'm glad this list agreed with me.

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

I've always said Kobe was vastly overrated and not a top 10 all-time player. People would say that makes me a *****, but it doesn't I'm glad this list agreed with me.

Points, wings, and bigs can't really be ranked together since the job descriptions are too different. Looking at the players ranked ahead of Kobe and who have similar on-court functions, I'm not sure I would rank Larry Bird and Magic Johnson ahead of Kobe. Bird couldn't guard anybody one on one and lacked the elite athleticism of Bryant. Magic lacked a reliable perimeter shot and was an awful defender.

Certainly, Kobe has many unlikable aspects about him but there is no doubting his talent, creativity, and competitive drive.

[Kashanova]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Points, wings, and bigs can't really be ranked together since the job descriptions are too different. Looking at the players ranked ahead of Kobe and who have similar on-court functions, I'm not sure I would rank Larry Bird and Magic Johnson ahead of Kobe. Bird couldn't guard anybody one on one and lacked the elite athleticism of Bryant. Magic lacked a reliable perimeter shot and was an awful defender.

Certainly, Kobe has many unlikable aspects about him but there is no doubting his talent, creativity, and competitive drive.

I disagree, this isn't like comparing Pitchers to Batters, in basketball. Everyone on the court has an opportunity to score, rebound, pass, and defend. Magic and Bird impacted the game in ways, Kobe could only wish he could. For one, these guys dominated a decade. Winning MVPs, and Finals MVPs, winning rings. Kobe didn't dominate a decade, IMO, he's not even the best in his generation. He has one MVP in 20 years, only won two FMVPs, and has failed to show in numerous Game 7s, where those two constantly shined. The mastery that both players had on the court definitely outshines whatever limitations they might have had.

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Comparing non-centers to centers is similar to your baseball analogy. True while basketball players need to have a basic mastery over every skill the precise job requirements of the positions differ greatly.

Point guards are not expected to be difference-making rebounders and as such are required to pull down one rebound for every 10 minutes of playing time. Centers are supposed to grab one rebound for every 3 minutes of action.

Then consider points are required to know the duties of all of their teammates at any time. They must also know who all of their opponents of the moment are and who they are matched up against, the score, and the clocks. Compare that to a center who typically only has a vague notion of who the opponent's guards are. All points need a superb handle while that is an afterthought for virtually every center.

In theory, a point guard playing 48 minutes of a ballgame will run about 5.2 miles covering the distance between both foul lines. Centers and forwards though are stationed closer to the basket and have to run baseline to baseline which will cover about 6.8 miles. Then consider how much more weight these bigs need to haul up and down.

Certainly, I would say that Kobe Bryant held the title of best non-big in the NBA (Shaquille O'Neal and Tim Duncan had more influence at different points in time) from the 99-00 season to the middle of the 11-12 season when LeBron likely overtook him for that distinction.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Difference is one basketball player has more in game impact overall than arguably any one player in any other sport. And positionally speaking there isn’t a mold set to keep players within a certain skill range to say that you can’t compare positions. You can be a point guard in the sense of Kidd, or like Curry, vastly different. A big in the sense of Shaq or Anthony Davis. A 7 foot “shooting guard” like KD that doesn’t fit any mold, or a freak like LeBron that can virtually play any position you need.

As long as NBA players are as versatile as they are it’s not an issue to compare positions. It would be difficult to say compare Wilt vs a guy like Stockton, but at those spectrums you’re getting really specialized. 90% of players you would compare in the top 100 or so aren’t so far to one side of the spectrum that comparisons are difficult.

Especially in terms of in game impact, which regardless of position you can usually get a feel for which player is impacting a game more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Well, a pitcher in baseball would impact the game more than any basketball player because he has the ball on every sequence.

All players have different responsibilities from team to team which makes any comparison somewhat silly. Point guard is the only position that may have similar duties.

You seem to be seperating a player's skill-set from his on court job description. Function supercedes talent. How well a player fulfills his specific role on the floor is most important. No role is necessarily more important than the other.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

A pitcher is only on the field for maybe half the game, in many cases doesn't even play half the innings, and hardly ever does your starting pitcher close the game. I would say the impact is far less, considering a pitcher, in many cases, is responsible for none of the points scored.

I also disagree that no role is more important than the other, if that were the case someone like Dennis Rodman would have been paid as much money as someone like Jordan. He's just as elite from a rebounding standpoint as Jordan was from a scoring standpoint.

I am separating skill set from job description because skill-set can determine the job description, multiple job descriptions even. Function may supersede talent, but in almost all cases talent is what determines function. And a player may be able to perform his role to perfection, but if he can't translate that into fulfilling other roles when needed, or it doesn't aid as much in filling team need it's tough for me to say he is as impactful.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

I've always said Kobe was vastly overrated and not a top 10 all-time player. People would say that makes me a *****, but it doesn't I'm glad this list agreed with me.

I've been a long time believer in the "Kobe is one of the most overrated players ever" camp. Mostly due to what I see and hear, from people I know, people online, ESPN, former players, etc...

But seeing these lists come out it seems that he might not be as overrated as I thought. At least universally, I think I just hear a lot of the other side more than I see him placed on lists such as these. In some ways I think he may actually be underrated by many even, these lists seem to have him in the range that I would have him. Tough to put exact numbers on things, but that 8-12 range has always felt where he should land to me.

To me his placement comes toughest when it's comparable to guys like Hakeem and Shaq. I would rather have either of them at their most dominant, but I think Kobe had more "prime" years and longevity is a big factor IMO. The more time goes by and the more lists come out I actually feel like Hakeem is becoming one of the more overrated players, there was a time where I felt as if he was underrated.. It's weird how perspective changes so much as time goes on. And it's also weird to me that people seem so reluctant to let newcomers in, like at some point greatness just stopped in the fans eye. The narrative on these players is forever changing even when they are no longer doing anything to alter it themselves. Maybe that is why lists are so difficult.

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

By the very nature of the game, a pitcher can totally dictate the outcome since they always control the ball.

I suppose I should amend what I said. Role players are (almost) as important as the stars.

Pure talent without other non-quantifiable traits is mostly useless. How a player fits with the talents of his teammates and the system of his coach is most important.

If forced to choose you would have to select Shaquille O'Neal and Hakeem Olajuwon over Kobe Bryant and any other small or medium for that matter. That is because a dominant big man can control the most critical real estate near the hoop.

[Kashanova]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

By the very nature of the game, a pitcher can totally dictate the outcome since they always control the ball.

I suppose I should amend what I said. Role players are (almost) as important as the stars.

Pure talent without other non-quantifiable traits is mostly useless. How a player fits with the talents of his teammates and the system of his coach is most important.

If forced to choose you would have to select Shaquille O'Neal and Hakeem Olajuwon over Kobe Bryant and any other small or medium for that matter. That is because a dominant big man can control the most critical real estate near the hoop.

Then why is it that DeGrom can't win any games? Pitcher can only do so much, especially in the AL.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

ESPN Top 100 list

Not ESPN, but Sports Illustrated dropped their annual top 100 and it's always a fun read IMO. It should be noted that it’s strictly rankings for the upcoming season, so guys that are injured or are returning from injury are lower than you’d expect (ex: Kawhi, Porzingis, and Cousins)

https://www.si.com/nba/2018/09/10/top-100-nba-players-2019-lebron-james-stephen-curry-dirk-nowitzki

Broken out by position:

Point Guard

1.Steph Curry

2****ssell Westbrook

3.Chris Paul

4.Damian Lillard

5.Kyrie Irving

6.Kyle Lowry

7.John Wall

8.Ben Simmons

9.Jrue Holiday

10.Kemba Walker

Shooting Guard

1.James Harden

2.Victor Oladipo

3.Klay Thompson

4.Bradley Beal

5.Khris Middleton

6.DeMar Derozan

7.C.J. McCollum

8.Donovan Mitchell

9.Gary Harris

10.Eric Gordon

Small Forward

1.Lebron James

2.Kevin Durant

3.Jimmy Butler

4.Paul George

5.Kawhi Leonard

6.Gordon Hayward

7.Jayson Tatum

8.Otto Porter

9.Jaylen Brown

10.Robert Covington

Power Forward

1.Anthony Davis

2.Giannis Antetokounmpo

3.Draymond Green

4.Kevin Love

5.Paul Millsap

6.Blake Griffin

7.Derrick Favors

8.Kristaps Porzingis

9.Dario Saric

10.Nikola Mirotic

Center

1.Joel Embiid

2****dy Gobert

3.Al Horford

4.Nikola Jokic

5.Karl-Anthony Towns

6.LaMarcus Aldridge

7.Clint Capela

8.Steven Adams

9.Marc Gasol

10.DeAndre Jordan

[dubcity]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Dude. There's too much wrong with that list to even begin to start.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Posting this as a comparable list to the ESPN and SLAM lists. This one is from RealGM:

2017 List
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Lebron James
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Karl Malone
15. Jerry West
16. Julius Erving
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. David Robinson
19. Charles Barkley
20. Moses Malone
21. John Stockton
22. Dwyane Wade
23. Chris Paul
24. Bob Pettit
25. George Mikan
26. Steve Nash
27. Patrick Ewing
28. Kevin Durant
29. Stephen Curry
30. Scottie Pippen
31. John Havlicek
32. Elgin Baylor
33. Clyde Drexler
34. Rick Barry
35. Gary Payton
36. Artis Gilmore
37. Jason Kidd
38. Walt Frazier
39. Isiah Thomas
40. Kevin McHale
41. George Gervin
42. Reggie Miller
43. Paul Pierce
44. Dwight Howard
45. Dolph Schayes
46. Bob Cousy
47. Ray Allen
48. Pau Gasol
49. Wes Unseld
50. Robert Parish
51. Russell Westbrook
52. Alonzo Mourning
53. Dikembe Mutombo
54. Manu Ginobili
55. Chauncey Billups
56. Willis Reed
57. Bob Lanier
58. Allen Iverson
59. Adrian Dantley
60. Dave Cowens
61. Elvin Hayes
62. Dominique Wilkins
63. Vince Carter
64. Alex English
65. Tracy McGrady
66. James Harden
67. Nate Thurmond
68. Sam Jones
69. Kevin Johnson
70. Bob McAdoo
71. Sidney Moncrief
72. Paul Arizin
73. Grant Hill
74. Bobby Jones
75. Chris Bosh
76. Tony Parker
77. Shawn Marion
78. Hal Greer
79. Ben Wallace
80. Dan Issel
81. Larry Nance
82. James Worthy
83. Chris Webber
84. Rasheed Wallace
85. Dennis Rodman
86. Horace Grant
87. Elton Brand
88. Terry Porter
89. Maurice Cheeks
90. Carmelo Anthony
91. Tim Hardaway
92. Jack Sikma
93. Billy Cunningham
94. Mookie Blaylock
95. Chet Walker
96. Kawhi Leonard
97. Vlade Divac
98. Bill Walton
99. Connie Hawkins
100. Mel Daniels