ESPN Top 100 list

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

AB - if you were to make an All-Time starting 5 on the conditions of all the pieces had to hypothetically fit together and work well on the court together, what would your lineup be?


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[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Gonna throw out a giant LOL to Michael Jordan being voted the greatest college basketball player of All-Time.

Basically my idol growing up and now people out here ruining it for me because you can’t even have a logical conversation/argument about him anymore.

And some of y’all jumped down my throat when I claimed his name was bigger now than it was back when he played. He’s being immortalized into something he wasn’t. This is just more of that nonsense.


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[cima]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

That fan-voted tourney for the GOAT of college basketball was actually a good thing because it solidified that casual fans who vote in those type of things don't know wtf they're talking about.

Kareem is unquestionably the GOAT of college b-ball and it's not even up for debate.

[Master Live 013]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

We see it all the time with fans' silly picks for All-Star teams, just a popularity contest which is won by, wait for it, (usually) whoever is most popular.

[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

AB - if you were to make an All-Time starting 5 on the conditions of all the pieces had to hypothetically fit together and work well on the court together, what would your lineup be?


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I am asked that question a lot in this forum. Jordan is in my starting five but i have him functioning more like a small forward on my dream team. Dave debusschere is my power forward because he was a dead eye spot shooter from long range (more consistent than bird on charts) and the best defender of any forward ever. Center is wilt chamberlain because he combined all the best aspects of Russell, Kareem , and Shaq. The guard picks are tricky. I just don't think Kobe would work best with Jordan so my eyes turn to jerry west. His high shoulders and long arms allow him to play bigger than his height suggests and he is the best point defender ever (its close between him and Dennis Johnson for that specific title). I always waffle on my point guard pick but it is usually magic Johnson. I can't ignore his size, versatility, and ability to run the fast break. The shooting, passing, and defense makes this the ultimate team for me.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

No matter what type of team I’m building I find it similarly the most difficult to choose a point guard.

Interested to know how you think guys like Frazier, Payton, Kidd stack up with DJ and West as far as defensive guards go?

Obviously I can only judge the older guys on what I can watch after the fact, but I’ve always been most impressed by Frazier, I’ve liked Payton more for quicker guys, and Kidd for bigger guards/shooting guards.

Hard to find tons of defensive sequences for Jerry, even harder to find him on quicker guys looking to score with most PG roles being to set up the offense/make the entry passes in that time. I assume his length would be more ideal for that than any of the others mentioned. He also looks to be a couple inches taller than his listed height IMO.

Also not easy to find as much on DJ considering a lot of archived stuff available to re-watch now is him with the Celtics. He was much older at that stage I know, but looked a significant step slower to me than the others mentioned. I do know anyone from that time frame talks highly of his defense however.


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[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

No matter what type of team I’m building I find it similarly the most difficult to choose a point guard.

Interested to know how you think guys like Frazier, Payton, Kidd stack up with DJ and West as far as defensive guards go?

Obviously I can only judge the older guys on what I can watch after the fact, but I’ve always been most impressed by Frazier, I’ve liked Payton more for quicker guys, and Kidd for bigger guards/shooting guards.

Hard to find tons of defensive sequences for Jerry, even harder to find him on quicker guys looking to score with most PG roles being to set up the offense/make the entry passes in that time. I assume his length would be more ideal for that than any of the others mentioned. He also looks to be a couple inches taller than his listed height IMO.

Also not easy to find as much on DJ considering a lot of archived stuff available to re-watch now is him with the Celtics. He was much older at that stage I know, but looked a significant step slower to me than the others mentioned. I do know anyone from that time frame talks highly of his defense however.


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I class point defenders into two categories, either fundamentalist contain guys ( Dennis Johnson) or ball-snipers ( jerry west). Frazier was a combination of the two and he mastered team defense. Certainly a legitimately great defender. Payton had great lateral movement but too often took foolish gambles. The difference between Payton and west was that west got his steals due to his anticipation skills. Kidd wouldn't quite rank with west, Johnson and Frazier but he was a guy who could clamp down on a star scorer in the clutch and get a big stop. Kidd shouldered the heaviest burden out of all those guys we are talking about as he was expected to be mr everything for his ball-club. It is understandable that he couldn't exert all out energy all the time on defense.

[Jeffx]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

That fan-voted tourney for the GOAT of college basketball was actually a good thing because it solidified that casual fans who vote in those type of things don't know wtf they're talking about.

Kareem is unquestionably the GOAT of college b-ball and it's not even up for debate.

Yep, that's what I posted in the college basketball thread. That was an insult to Kareem.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

ESPN’s new list just to add to the other 3-4 in here.

Spoiler

1.) Michael Jordan
2.) LeBron James
3.) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4.) Bill Russell
5.) Magic Johnson
6.) Wilt Chamberlain
7.) Larry Bird
8.) Tim Duncan
9.) Kobe Bryant
10.) Shaquille O’Neal
11.) Oscar Robertson
12.) Hakeem Olajuwon
13.) Steph Curry
14.) Kevin Durant
15.) Julius Erving
16.) Jerry West
17.) Karl Malone
18.) Moses Malone
19.) Dirk Nowitzki
20.) Kevin Garnett
21.) Scottie Pippen
22.) Elgin Baylor
23.) Charles Barkley
24.) David Robinson
25.) Kawhi Leonard
26.) Dwyane Wade
27.) Giannis Antetokounmpo
28.) John Stockton
29.) Allen Iverson
30.) Steve Nash
31.) Isiah Thomas
32.) James Harden
33.) John Havlicek
34.) George Mikan
35.) Jason Kidd
36.) Kevin McHale
37.) Patrick Ewing
38.) Bob Pettit
39.) Walt Frazier
40.) Chris Paul
41.) Bob Cousy
42.) Russell Westbrook
43.) Rick Barry
44.) Elvin Hayes
45.) Anthony Davis
46.) Dominique Wilkins
47.) George Gervin
48.) Bill Walton
49.) Reggie Miller
50.) Wes Unseld
51.) James Worthy
52.) Tracy McGrady
53.) Gary Payton
54.) Paul Pierce
55.) Vince Carter
56.) Ray Allen
57.) Clyde Drexler
58.) Manu Ginobili
59.) Bob McAdoo
60.) Willis Reed
61.) Robert Parish
62.) Dennis Rodman
63.) Alonzo Mourning
64.) Earl Monroe
65.) Pau Gasol
66.) Dave Cowens
67.) Alex English
68.) Pete Maravich
69.) Bernard King
70.) Tony Parker
71.) Bob Lanier
72.) Damian Lillard
73.) Dikembe Mutombo
74.) Artis Gilmore

Not sure why this particular list is only 1-74, but posting it anyways considering the back picks list stopped at 40 and it’s in here as well.


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[cima]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

I think it's cause this was the 74th NBA season

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

First thoughts for me looking at the list entirely, I like that the voters were willing to bump up some guys who are still playing. I’ve never liked the argument that a player had to completely finish his career before we can compare him to someone else, or that just because a current guy is still playing he can’t be better than a “legend” because a legend is a legend and you can’t be a legend until you’ve been retired for 20 years. If a guy is better he’s better, no reason to say he isn’t just because he’s still playing.

That said, Steph at 13 still seems a bit too premature for me. He’s had a great 4-5 seasons that would put him in those type of discussions. To say he’s already jumped Jerry West who had about 10 seasons at that level seems a little off to me. He’s got the rings, the MVPs, but West was still a top 5 MVP level guy for basically 10 straight seasons, and even with just 1 ring his playoff resumé overall is way up the list. Had there been more games before getting to the finals there is really no telling what his numbers would look like, and he’s still the All-Time leading scorer in finals history.

Julius Erving is always a tough one, I never know how much credit to give the ABA years in discussions like this.

It’s tough for me to say Kobe is better than Shaq, Big O, and Hakeem. That’s why he usually lands at about 12 for me, however I don’t consider 9 a stretch for him either.

Kawhi jumping Wade is tough for me too, though I think he eventually could I don’t think his play last season quite jumps him up as high as most do. I’ve said it in the past but I still feel he was a better player his last year with the Spurs, this Toronto ring I feel has made people jump the gun a bit with him.

Iverson seems way too high, wasn’t it the ESPN list that he was upset over not making the top 50? Or was that bleacher report of someone else? Seems like ESPN was just trying if to avoid him being upset with them too.

Still don’t feel like Bill Walton belongs on lists like this. If healthy I think he could have had a Duncan like career and been up there with those guys in the top 10, but I can’t have him jump so many greats with only 2 healthy great years IMO.

Kevin Garnett is always tricky for me, I don’t mind him at 20 personally but I think the backpacks article has him at like 8 or 9, and at first glance I was calling BS but reading the breakdown really made me consider their angle on it.

It seems REALLY strange to see Dirk sitting at 19 and Pau Gasol at 65.. I’m glad to see Dirk get his due, and actually think he does belong in the top 25 of lists like this but it still feels strange knowing at one point it felt like they were neck and neck as players and now there is a huge gap between them.

Random thoughts, but if current players are getting the benefit of the doubt what does Davis need to do to be higher than 45? I know he’s missing the ring but Giannis at 27 and Kawhi at 25 makes Davis at 45 a little head scratching.


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[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

I think it's cause this was the 74th NBA season

My man, thanks [emoji1360]


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[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

First thoughts for me looking at the list entirely, I like that the voters were willing to bump up some guys who are still playing. I’ve never liked the argument that a player had to completely finish his career before we can compare him to someone else, or that just because a current guy is still playing he can’t be better than a “legend” because a legend is a legend and you can’t be a legend until you’ve been retired for 20 years. If a guy is better he’s better, no reason to say he isn’t just because he’s still playing.

That said, Steph at 13 still seems a bit too premature for me. He’s had a great 4-5 seasons that would put him in those type of discussions. To say he’s already jumped Jerry West who had about 10 seasons at that level seems a little off to me. He’s got the rings, the MVPs, but West was still a top 5 MVP level guy for basically 10 straight seasons, and even with just 1 ring his playoff resumé overall is way up the list. Had there been more games before getting to the finals there is really no telling what his numbers would look like, and he’s still the All-Time leading scorer in finals history.

Julius Erving is always a tough one, I never know how much credit to give the ABA years in discussions like this.

It’s tough for me to say Kobe is better than Shaq, Big O, and Hakeem. That’s why he usually lands at about 12 for me, however I don’t consider 9 a stretch for him either.

Kawhi jumping Wade is tough for me too, though I think he eventually could I don’t think his play last season quite jumps him up as high as most do. I’ve said it in the past but I still feel he was a better player his last year with the Spurs, this Toronto ring I feel has made people jump the gun a bit with him.

Iverson seems way too high, wasn’t it the ESPN list that he was upset over not making the top 50? Or was that bleacher report of someone else? Seems like ESPN was just trying if to avoid him being upset with them too.

Still don’t feel like Bill Walton belongs on lists like this. If healthy I think he could have had a Duncan like career and been up there with those guys in the top 10, but I can’t have him jump so many greats with only 2 healthy great years IMO.

Kevin Garnett is always tricky for me, I don’t mind him at 20 personally but I think the backpacks article has him at like 8 or 9, and at first glance I was calling BS but reading the breakdown really made me consider their angle on it.

It seems REALLY strange to see Dirk sitting at 19 and Pau Gasol at 65.. I’m glad to see Dirk get his due, and actually thing he does belong in the top 25 of lists like this but it still feels strange knowing at one point it felt like they were neck and neck as players and now there is a huge gap between them.

Random thoughts, but if current players are getting the benefit of the doubt what does Davis need to do to be higher than 45? I know he’s missing the ring but Giannis at 27 and Kawhi at 25 makes Davis at 45 a little head scratching.


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West had a more complete game than Curry. He was probably the best point guard defender in history and had legit 25 foot range on his jumper. Could run and jump at the highest level and would be a definite all star if playing today.


Erving in the ABA was an even better player than he was in the NBA. His lateral and vertical movement was unbelievable which meant his defense was outstanding. Even still, his NBA game was more complete than people think. He could drive on anyone, pass, handle, rebound, and rise to the occasion in the clutch.


Garnett isn't really worthy of being on a list like this. He functioned as a huge jump shooter mostly who couldn't challenge at the rim without getting smalls and mediums switched onto him. His team defense was outstanding but he was put at serous risk when his fronting and three quartering of the low post failed. Worst of all, he failed in the vast majority of clutch situations he was placed in.


I agree that Dirk and Pau Gasol are more evenly matched than people remember.


The crafters of this list are younger and likely never saw the greats of the 50s and 60s. This should be taken with a grain of salt.

[ojandpizza]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

West had a more complete game than Curry. He was probably the best point guard defender in history and had legit 25 foot range on his jumper. Could run and jump at the highest level and would be a definite all star if playing today.


Erving in the ABA was an even better player than he was in the NBA. His lateral and vertical movement was unbelievable which meant his defense was outstanding. Even still, his NBA game was more complete than people think. He could drive on anyone, pass, handle, rebound, and rise to the occasion in the clutch.


Garnett isn't really worthy of being on a list like this. He functioned as a huge jump shooter mostly who couldn't challenge at the rim without getting smalls and mediums switched onto him. His team defense was outstanding but he was put at serous risk when his fronting and three quartering of the low post failed. Worst of all, he failed in the vast majority of clutch situations he was placed in.


I agree that Dirk and Pau Gasol are more evenly matched than people remember.


The crafters of this list are younger and likely never saw the greats of the 50s and 60s. This should be taken with a grain of salt.

I will agree that West was the more complete player, even based on the semi-limited footage I’ve been able to see I would agree that my takeaway on him is the same.. But I will also throw out the idea that being more complete doesn’t always equal better if somebody else is so great at less areas. With pre-3point line making the comparison so hard to judge I don’t think it’s fair to say one way or the other. West clearly had range, and likely would have scored more points if a few of those looks counted for 3 but at that point we are guessing with hypotheticals. If we are judging them against their field Curry had one of the greatest offense seasons of all time, possibly the best in terms of his points and efficiency in combination of getting it within the flow of his offense. That said Jerry’s resumé is still larger than Steph’s until he can come back and show he has a few more MVP level years in him.

I know he was better in the ABA and that was the point of my post. His best years were when the talent pool was split between two leagues and he was winning in the lesser of the two. Had he be leading championship competitor level teams in the NBA with all the talent in one league I would easily feel confident in where he stands. But given the circumstances it creates some complications for me. I’m not arguing he doesn’t belong where he’s at it’s just that IMO his placement doesn’t feel as cut and dry.

I disagree on KG but we’ve already discussed him in depth in this same thread and I believe others as well. I will say Garnett’s biggest downfall is like Karl Malones’s their regular season to playoff drop is absolutely notable enough to be at least worth mentioning. However his “down” level of play is still better than plenty of other guys on this list. Even is some of his sub-par (by his standard) playoff runs he was still playing better than a good chunk of these guys absolute best runs.. KG at his worst is still a build around him caliber player. Goes hand in hand with the clutch argument. Plenty of instance of KG not performing in the clutch, but there are also plenty of instances where he has as well.. you can’t ignore that. A lot of these guys where never asked to perform in the clutch but rather watch someone else do it. I can’t knock KG for any mishaps without crediting him for when he did show up. And regardless “clutch” isn’t going to move the needle for me in player rankings all that much. I agree it’s a factor, and clutch moments require a higher magnitude of mental toughness and focus, but 2 points in the last minute of a game is worth the same as 2 point in the first minute of game. It would be one thing had KG did nothing but flop in every clutch situation he ever found himself in, but that’s not the case. And every “clutch” moment from every game is created by whatever happened before it.


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[AlexBrady]

Re: ESPN Top 100 list

Well, being able to influence the game without the ball in hand (which is in fact the case for every player 80% of the game) is a decisive advantage for me. Curry is still worthy of being ranked highly on this list though.


We should remember that the ABA was lacking talent in their big man pool which did allow the 6-7 Erving to 'play bigger' than he actually was and exert more influence on a ballgame.


Garnett is a lesser player than the likes of Dave DeBusschere and Gus Johnson and neither even made this list. Was Garnett more impactful than some of the guys listed? Sure, but some of these guys didn't even deserve to be ranked. Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady among the top 74 ballplayers of all time? Its to laugh!


Is Garnett even a more impactful player than a guy like Jack Sikma? I find it hard to believe.


A big study was done by Red Auerbach many years ago that said NBA ballgames are invariably tightly contested going deep into the fourth quarter. This makes production in these critical moments most important.


Garnett wasn't just missing open jumpers in the clutch. He was faulty in his baseline rotations, fumbling rebounds, and passing to no one. Did he come through in certain selected moments? Yes, but a true all timer shouldn't be failing in the clutch 75% of the time.