Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

[23]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

How ya'll gonna let this slide tho?

[King_B_Mack]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Tired...


OJ, you're showing your age.

Nah, OJ ain't slick. This is about his boy Bron. Usually is in these Jordan discussions

[CaseIH]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Planet. During the absolute height of his playing career Michael Jordan was one of if not the most popular person on planet Earth. Part of the spectacle of the Dream Team was Jordan being on that team. The 95-96 Chicago Bulls were a touring rock group largely because of Michael Jordan's star.

It wasnt largely because MJ being the star, it was ALL because of MJ being the star of the team. Take MJ away and they were just a average a team, heck if it werent for MJ, Pippen in all likleyhood isnt a HOF'er, sure the heck wouldnt have been a top 50 player of all time.

Your right he has been known world wide even before he retire the 1st time around. Even when Jordan was still playing his name was the most recognizable name in the world outside Ali.

I do see what OJ is saying, that Jordan has become this fairy tale like story of this great basketball player that did no wrong. As big as he was before his career ended, it seems its only grown, which does happen in rare cases, probably alot of kids growing up unless they actually studies boxing would probably think Ali never lost a fight, too. I think unless you were around to see a guys whole career, you probably can get a false take of it at times, with legendary figures in sports.
I dont know maybe OJ was trying to put MJ down to build Lebron up, dont really know him so I cant say, it seemed to me he was just pointing out how much his legend has grown, to like a fairly tale.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

I do see what OJ is saying, that Jordan has become this fairy tale like story of this great basketball player that did no wrong. As big as he was before his career ended, it seems its only grown, which does happen in rare cases, probably alot of kids growing up unless they actually studies boxing would probably think Ali never lost a fight, too. I think unless you were around to see a guys whole career, you probably can get a false take of it at times, with legendary figures in sports.
I dont know maybe OJ was trying to put MJ down to build Lebron up, dont really know him so I cant say, it seemed to me he was just pointing out how much his legend has grown, to like a fairly tale.

This is pretty much exactly what I'm saying. This quote from an article sums it up much better than I could with my own words:

"See, there are athletes that come along who transcend our previous notions of excellence. Think Willie Mays. Think Jim Brown. Think Babe Ruth. Think Bobby Orr. Think Ben Hogan. Think Sandy Koufax. Think Roger Federer. You can think of your favorites.

These athletes and others like them so surprise and intoxicate us that we cannot imagine ever seeing anyone better. And even while those athletes fade, the intoxication grows. Most people still rank Babe Ruth as the greatest baseball player ever, even though he played a very different game in a very different time and the only thing that’s left of him are a few grainy black and white movies and unreal statistics that mean whatever we want them to mean.

Superior athletes position us in time and place. They make us young again. How could anyone ever seem as great to me as the running back Earl Campbell was? I was just a kid then, so new to the world, and every tackle he broke, every time he pulled away from the grasp of a defender (often losing his jersey in the process), every time he plowed over someone standing up too tall, it was like a little miracle to me. He blew up my mind over and over. Now that I close in on 50 years old, will anyone ever astonish me the way Campbell did? Probably not. No athlete can really compete with my imagination."

Especially for people around my age, who became basketball fanatics by watching MJ. Nothing is ever going to "wow" them the way Jordan could, so in their minds regardless of what anyone else does they can't fathom anyone ever being better than him and won't even listen to a discussion that even hints at someone being at that level.

The last line sums it all up perfectly, everything I've said, you said, this writer said; players aren't competing with just Jordan, it's Jordan and whatever version their imagination has propelled him to. Like you said people don't remember anything negative. You watch a game now and it's "LeBron missed a game winner, oh Jordan would never do that", "did he just walk? Did he sell contact there?, that's no MJ". Hell even when their is no discussion of MJ being made. I have guys at work who come into the office and will literally say "did you see that last night, Jordan wouldn't have done that", that's what it's become.


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[King_B_Mack]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

OJ stop man. People don't leave out anything negative about Jordan. Part of his legacy is running into that Pistons wall over and over again before finally breaking through. You simply have this complex in you that LeBron is mistreated by people and he's the only athlete that gets the mistreatment he does. You and this Jordan argument you're pushing right now is another part of that. I watched Jordan, I was around to remember all the talk about him not being good enough because he couldn't beat the Pistons. I remember everybody lining up to take shots at him every chance they got about baseball while he was grinding away in the minors. I was around for people ready to write off Jordan as done when he came back and they lost to the Magic. Jordan's gambling, his entire executive career, the divorce, not speaking up on social issues, the shoe prices. Miss me with this Jordan can do no wrong rhetoric.

[Scofield]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

This is pretty much exactly what I'm saying. This quote from an article sums it up much better than I could with my own words:

"See, there are athletes that come along who transcend our previous notions of excellence. Think Willie Mays. Think Jim Brown. Think Babe Ruth. Think Bobby Orr. Think Ben Hogan. Think Sandy Koufax. Think Roger Federer. You can think of your favorites.

These athletes and others like them so surprise and intoxicate us that we cannot imagine ever seeing anyone better. And even while those athletes fade, the intoxication grows. Most people still rank Babe Ruth as the greatest baseball player ever, even though he played a very different game in a very different time and the only thing that’s left of him are a few grainy black and white movies and unreal statistics that mean whatever we want them to mean.

Superior athletes position us in time and place. They make us young again. How could anyone ever seem as great to me as the running back Earl Campbell was? I was just a kid then, so new to the world, and every tackle he broke, every time he pulled away from the grasp of a defender (often losing his jersey in the process), every time he plowed over someone standing up too tall, it was like a little miracle to me. He blew up my mind over and over. Now that I close in on 50 years old, will anyone ever astonish me the way Campbell did? Probably not. No athlete can really compete with my imagination."

Especially for people around my age, who became basketball fanatics by watching MJ. Nothing is ever going to "wow" them the way Jordan could, so in their minds regardless of what anyone else does they can't fathom anyone ever being better than him and won't even listen to a discussion that even hints at someone being at that level.

The last line sums it all up perfectly, everything I've said, you said, this writer said; players aren't competing with just Jordan, it's Jordan and whatever version their imagination has propelled him to. Like you said people don't remember anything negative. You watch a game now and it's "LeBron missed a game winner, oh Jordan would never do that", "did he just walk? Did he sell contact there?, that's no MJ". Hell even when their is no discussion of MJ being made. I have guys at work who come into the office and will literally say "did you see that last night, Jordan wouldn't have done that", that's what it's become.


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What you're saying is largely the case in terms of how people feel about him. But this isn't a recent development. If you were to measure where MJ was in the hearts and minds of the public just after 98 I don't think you see much of a difference in sentiment. Hell you could probably argue that the love for him at that point was more rabid and widespread than at any other point.

Everything you've spelled out here has been in play for at least 15 years or more.

[ojandpizza]

Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

King, nobody is singling YOU out..

You can't even give Westbrook praise for going on an insane triple-double tear because "yeah but look at his usage without KD", but "remember back in 88 when Jordan played PG and averaged a triple double over 10 games" nobody cared what his usage was or how he always had the ball did they? You've got the same people bashing one, ignoring for the other. I've saw the same argument for someone saying that LeBron or Bird is a better playmaker. "Well Jordan could have been if he wanted to, look what he did in those 10 games".. But LeBron couldn't average over 30 points a game if "he wanted to"?? If he wanted to make that his game? It's always reversed always ignored for MJ.

I'm not sitting here saying you said it, or you have said it, I'm haven't singled out a single person. I do know I've saw (maybe 13) Bulls fans here who do that stuff consistently though.

I became a basketball fan in a household where my uncle doesn't consider Jordan the best ever, where when my jaw was on the floor watching him my dad was stone faced with the response "Dr J used to do that".

Ain't nobody here talking about Jordan losing to the Pistons or playing baseball. The discussion is his name is RIGHT NOW. Has nothing to do with how he was viewed in 1988. If anything that just proves what I was saying all along. That he was allowed to be criticized at one point, and now isn't.


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[ojandpizza]

Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

. Hell you could probably argue that the love for him at that point was more rabid and widespread than at any other point.

Well definitely it was, he was a celebrity like status superstar widely considered the best athlete alive.

The only athlete in my lifetime that I can remember even being remotely close to as universally loved as MJ with a shot at having that type of marketability was OJ Simpson.. And we know how that went downhill.





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[DieHardYankee26]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

"Unreal statistics that mean whatever we want them to mean"

I just...what?

[ojandpizza]

Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

"Unreal statistics that mean whatever we want them to mean"

I just...what?

Not sure exactly what he meant with that. And don't follow baseball close enough to have the slightest explanation.

But I do think the statement, in itself can be applied to basketball.

Just a quick example. When talking about the all time greats, like down to the top 5-10 guys, what is almost always mentioned for Russell, Wilt, Big O to justify them being in that tier? 11 rings in 13 years, scoring 100 averaging 50, averaging a triple double right?

Now I'm not trying to say that's the only reason, but that's the first thing most people point to. If someone where to say Big O > Magic, we already know that's a massive chunk of the argument. But that's where it's a little misleading, as impressive as the feats are their is some "unrealistic" context with them. For instance, in any other era of basketball or even on any other team in that era is Russell going to win 11 rings in 13 years, would Big O average a triple double, Wilt drop 100 average 50? I'm not going to give a flat out no since it can't be proven, but it's HIGHLY unlikely.

Using Westbrook as a comparison, if we took his numbers and adjusted them to just the pace at which they played at that year his averages for last season are 31-10-13.5... And like I said, that's only adjusting for pace, with his minutes still around 34 a game. With stars then playing 45+ minutes, Russ would be more like 41-13-18. Which shows just how skewed going backwards can make things seem. Those are rough figures, I didn't round. But it also didn't factor in that his speed and explosiveness, ball handling, and size as a PG would be even large benefits for him than what they are today.

Even if we didn't twist and stretch stats, the numbers in themselves show how primitive the league was at the time. Oscar was in only his second season when he averaged a triple double, that same season was the year Wilt averaged 50, the same season Walt Bellamy as a rookie averaged 32 and 19 and led the league in FG% (never achieved that again in his career), guys that were 6'5 could pull down 18+ boards a night. Never again will win see things like that.


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[CaseIH]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

This is pretty much exactly what I'm saying. This quote from an article sums it up much better than I could with my own words:

"See, there are athletes that come along who transcend our previous notions of excellence. Think Willie Mays. Think Jim Brown. Think Babe Ruth. Think Bobby Orr. Think Ben Hogan. Think Sandy Koufax. Think Roger Federer. You can think of your favorites.

These athletes and others like them so surprise and intoxicate us that we cannot imagine ever seeing anyone better. And even while those athletes fade, the intoxication grows. Most people still rank Babe Ruth as the greatest baseball player ever, even though he played a very different game in a very different time and the only thing that’s left of him are a few grainy black and white movies and unreal statistics that mean whatever we want them to mean.

Superior athletes position us in time and place. They make us young again. How could anyone ever seem as great to me as the running back Earl Campbell was? I was just a kid then, so new to the world, and every tackle he broke, every time he pulled away from the grasp of a defender (often losing his jersey in the process), every time he plowed over someone standing up too tall, it was like a little miracle to me. He blew up my mind over and over. Now that I close in on 50 years old, will anyone ever astonish me the way Campbell did? Probably not. No athlete can really compete with my imagination."

Especially for people around my age, who became basketball fanatics by watching MJ. Nothing is ever going to "wow" them the way Jordan could, so in their minds regardless of what anyone else does they can't fathom anyone ever being better than him and won't even listen to a discussion that even hints at someone being at that level.

The last line sums it all up perfectly, everything I've said, you said, this writer said; players aren't competing with just Jordan, it's Jordan and whatever version their imagination has propelled him to. Like you said people don't remember anything negative. You watch a game now and it's "LeBron missed a game winner, oh Jordan would never do that", "did he just walk? Did he sell contact there?, that's no MJ". Hell even when their is no discussion of MJ being made. I have guys at work who come into the office and will literally say "did you see that last night, Jordan wouldn't have done that", that's what it's become.


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I know this thread isnt about Earl Campbell, but that brought back some old memories hearing that name. He was 1 of my favorites even though he didnt play for my team, I still loved watching him, except against my team that is,lol.

While I dont think Lebron is greater than MJ, Ive heard those same things you mentioned from people, where they would say something to that effect, if Lebron missed a game winner, or lost the ball at a key point, and they say he sure isnt MJ, cause MJ always came thru. Yet Jordan had a commercial talking baout all the missed game winners, guess they were too young or not born back then,lol.

While I dont think Lebron is as good in late game situations as Jordan was or for that matter Bird and Magic too, been a lot of guys that just had that knack, tht arent even in the discussion as GOAT, like Reggie Miller, not many who hot more clutch shots that Reggie, did, but he also missed quite a few too, being a Pacers fan I know. Lebron has had his fair share of late game heroics, and some tend to forget its not just that last second shot that matters, its all those made baskets, rebounds, etc in the last few minutes of games that keeps his team in it, or bring them back from a deficit that also goes into that whole being clutch. As I like to tell people who always point out those last second shots by a player, I will point to Derrick Fisher, who hit a lot of big baskets, and quite frankly if it wasnt for being coach by Phil Jackson the guy probably wouldnt have hardly ever played, maybe not even lasted in the league if it werent for hwo he played for and with, Phil Jackson was best at hiding players weaknesses, in his schemes.


Its too bad this thread turned into a Jordan vs Lebron thread, but I guess its just the nature of elite/legendary sorts athletes.

Was Jordan before he ever retired the 1st time around known world wide, and outside of Muhammed Ali was the most recognizable athlete in the world? Absolutely, everyone wanted to be like Mike.
I hate the Bulls, and he was so great, that I would find myself rooting for him, even though I started the game against them,lol. Especially the Flu game, there would be times, when I was like what the heck and Im doing, rooting for them.
Hasnt been another player since then make me do that, but I imagine if I live long enough, it will happen again, although I hope that player is on my team, and it others feeling like I did when MJ played,lol.

Is Jordan name having the same impact today, as when he played? Yeah, and I would say just as you did, its become that of a fairy tale, to where it makes you think did these kids ever even see Jordan play his whole career.

I remember a guy who scored at will, yet couldnt beat Bird Celtics, He got the crap beat out of him by the Pistons more than one time, and gives them credit for making him the player he became. 1st and foremost before he ever got to the NBA, I remember Dan Dakich shutting him down in the NCAA tournament. Helped that Dakich coach was the great Bobby Knight too, but still Dakich hounded him to death.

I dont know if I will live to see it, but as long as their is the game of basketball, at some point someone will take the title as GOAT from MJ. IMO, Lebron has closed that gap, and while he may not take the reign away fro MJ, You can make a awful good argument he is right there on his heels.

[Mr.Ace]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

LBJ will always be hounded by his finals losses and him going to the Heat with Bosh and Wade.... Fairly or unfairly depending on your stance...

[KG]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

How ya'll gonna let this slide tho?

I'll be honest....it was so long I didn't read it

[AlexBrady]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

Oscar Robertson did average a triple double and it was totally legitimate under any circumstances. He had every basketball skill at the highest level. Wilt Chamberlain was 7'1'' and 300 pounds and defenses could only play one on one in the post, no surprise then that he averaged 50 plus points a game.

The league back then was focused on running, quick ball and man movement which is why more points and field goals were attempted. It was not a primitive era. Russell Westbrook with his gratuitous dribblings would not be a good fit here.

Oscar Robertson was the finest guard who ever breathed. He had every conceivable skill and weighed a monstrous 220 pounds at 6'5''. Oscar had played out his full college career at Cincinatti and had gotten the invaluable apprenticeship every player needs. By his triple double year he was a 23 year old grown man who totally understood every nuance of the game.

Walt Bellamy also played out his full college career at Indiana. That is four years of learning the game, invaluable. By 61-62 Bellamy was 22 years old. Height and weight? 6'11'' and 265 pounds. He could nail foul line jumpers or play blast ball in the low post. Incredibly strong, no surprise then that he pulled down 19 rebounds per game.

6'5'' and pulling down 18 rebounds a night? Are you talking about Johnny Green? Closer to 6'7'' actually and weighing about 230 pounds. Explosive off the floorboards and great hands. No wonder he pulled down a man sized helping of caroms.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Does Michael Jordan's name have the same impact as before?

I know this thread isnt about Earl Campbell, but that brought back some old memories hearing that name. He was 1 of my favorites even though he didnt play for my team, I still loved watching him, except against my team that is,lol.

Interestingly enough the article was actually about Jordan and LeBron, the Earl Campbell piece was just an example he made.



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