2017 Offseason Thread

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Washington still probably matches even though that's a **** ton for Otto, but props to the Nets for getting the trade kicked in there if Washington matches.


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[ProfessaPackMan]

2017 Offseason Thread

And 2 years ago Tristan Thompson got a max contract after averaging 8/8.

Go ahead and match Wizards. Hope Wall signs that contract soon.

[King_B_Mack]

2017 Offseason Thread

Per Woj, Kelly Olynyk to the Heat. 4 years, 50+ million


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[Themayorofawsometown]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Per Woj, Kelly Olynyk to the Heat. 4 years, 53+ million


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Like the signing don't like the money spent

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[bigeastbumrush]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Good thing I'm not a GM because I'd gladly tell Otto to take a hike.

We talk about tiers of players...I don't even consider Otto a mid-tier player.

That's a lot of coin.

[bigeastbumrush]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Like the signing don't like the money spent

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Seems like a very reasonable contract to me.

[Themayorofawsometown]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Seems like a very reasonable contract to me.

Its only like 8 mill a year right? If it's that then its not so bad

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[areobee401]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Going to miss Kelly. Wish him all the best. The Man Bun is South Beach. Hide your wives and girlfriends.

[jeremym480]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Never forget

https://youtu.be/gL93RjhIXps

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[bigeastbumrush]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Its only like 8 mill a year right? If it's that then its not so bad

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LOL..$13M+

I think the MLE is $8M.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Woj adds there's a player option for that fourth year. So it could essentially be a three year deal.


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[DIESEL]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

WTF!! Kelly Olynk. NOOOO!!

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

$12.5 - $13 Mil per isn't bad at all.


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[z Revis]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Sorry about the block of text, I'll try to be more succinct. Putting the response in spoilers below.

Spoiler

San Antonio is seemingly the exception to the rule, isn't it? But it is their combination of management and ownership that sets that apart. Running through your list of of teams ...

NOLA -- ownership issues plagued the team since they left Charlotte in the early 2000s (2002/03 if I recall). The previous owner of the team, George Shin, was not an owner who liked spending his money. The current ownership situation is a mess, because the team is owned by Tom Benson (same guy who owns the Saints) and he's 89 -- he, also, is not a big spender of money and he's 89. Once he passes away, his family and estate will get involved and that's a mess in of itself.

Ownership unwilling to spend money usually means cheap front offices, which usually means executives with low salaries, on short contracts, trying to keep from being the guys who get fired for not making the playoffs or some such. It's easier to fire a coach or an executive than it is a player -- that's true in all sports.


MIN - Not a particularly great environment for players, largely -- again -- due to ownership issues. Glen Taylor hired the infamously bad David Kahn (KAHN!!!!!!!) to oversee his team in the late 2000s ... and he did a bad job. They squandered not only prime KG in the early 2000s -- who legitimately had a good shot at getting a title in 2004-05 if they had just given him a little more to work with -- but they also squandered Kevin Love's years, too.

Ownership made poor front office hires (remember Kevin McHale was GM of this team during some of those Prime KG years?) and those front offices made poor coaching hires on a few occasions.

Historical ineptitude is a legacy, just like the Lakers/Celtics championships. Minnesota, unfortunately, is subject to that. They might finally get things right with Thibs in charge.


OKC - OKC made the still head-scratching decision to trade James Harden to Houston. That was the first domino to fall -- ownership didn't want to go into the luxury tax and traded away part of the core to avoid it. The front office went out and got Enes Kanter and gave him a mega-deal ... despite Kanter's non-existent defense. They then fired Scott Brooks, a coach Durant really liked, and replaced him with a college coach in the final year of his contact.

The front office missed on all of those moves (I like Donovan, but he's not a better pro coach than Brooks at this point). They telegraphed their priorities when they traded Harden and made poor choices after that. It's not like the front office was incapable of making better deals -- they just traded for PG to avoid what happened with Durant happening again with Westbrook. The front office simply made poor choices, repeatedly, that didn't get Durant the help he needed to get over the hump.


Utah - As previously outlined, Hayward's decision had less to do with what Utah didn't do and more to do with what he wanted to do; he couldn't pass up the opportunity to play with Stevens.

Indy - poor front office management by Larry Bird. Frank Vogel is a better coach than Nate McMillan, but Bird let him go. Bird tried to change the fabric of the team on the fly and made poor decisions in pursuit of that goal -- he also tried to force PG to play power forward through public statements and PG pushed back. Not a good look when the front office tries to push their star player to do something he doesn't want to, especially since it wasn't that long after George was coming back from his devastating leg injury, if I recall.

Other than Myles Turner, who exactly has Indiana hit on in the draft since PG became "the guy"? He got virtually no help and watched as his ECF teammates left (either by front office trades or outright declining to play with them again) one by one; when a front office can't retain a conference finals core, that's a problem.

Sacramento - Chronically mismanaged in both the front office and ownership for over a decade. Sacramento had one, glorious run in the early 2000s with C-Webb, Bibby, Divac, and Rick Adeleman, and then let that all fade away once the Maloofs took over the team and proceeded to run it so far into the ground they nearly relocated it to a couple of different places.

The team and organization are actually (surprisingly) on the road to recovery, as the Boogie trade really freed them up to pursue a new direction. The signing of well-respected veterans and players in George Hill (former Spur) and ZBo (who will rightfully have his number retired by Memphis in a class move) is a good sign. By the time the rookie contract of Buddy Hield ends, say in about three years, I think Sactown will have rehabbed its image with players/agents again ... assuming their ownership stays out of the way, which is not a guarantee..


Orlando - Otis Smith, if not for Billy King, might be remembered as one of the poorer GMs in recent history. This man helped assemble the 2009 Magic Finals team, then let key pieces walk away, traded for Gilbert Arenas, traded back for key pieces (Hedo), gave an ill-advised contract to Rashard Lewis (whose knees were not in great shape at that point) and missed on virtually every draft pick during Dwight's time there.

Otis Smith was bad at his job for quite awhile before he got let go. Dwight, I really believe, would have stayed if not for two things:

A) he didn't get along with SVG and SVG really didn't get along with him. They had a love-hate relationship, but it was weird the way they worked together.

B) he never got a second star to pair with him. Gilbert Arenas, after the Wizards debacle? Not there. Rashard Lewis? A good stretch four who offered little more than shooting. Vince Carter? In the "I just want to get paid" stage of his career and had just left the Nets so he wasn't exactly prime cut at that point. Hedo? Was never the same after he signed with Toronto and left Orlando. Jameer Nelson? A solid PG who was never destined to be more than that.

Orlando, to my recollection, never even got in the mix for other stars on the trade market. Dwight flip-flopped back and forth before -- finally -- agreeing to end the Dwightmare and leave Orlando.

Again, ownership empowered bad management and bad management made poor choices, which caused star player to leave. Orlando continued this pattern after Dwight left, as the Rob Hennigan era did nothing except accrue more likely draft misses (maybe Aaron Gordon and Hezjonia are good ... maybe), then spent money in free agency on the likes of Jeff Green and Biyombo, then traded for Serge Ibaka ... before trading him again to Toronto.

Orlando is likely going to be spending the next few years digging themselves out of that mess.

But the Spurs are a constant, stable force. Much like Miami (not as small a market, but still smaller than LA, Houston, New York, etc), the Spurs preach culture. Stability. Patience. The difference between the Spurs and the Heat, right now, is that Miami chose to develop through free agency and trades -- their draft record, beyond Wade and Winslow, is pretty poor. Pat Riley likes to build with ready-made players.

The Spurs tend to take any player, anywhere in the draft, and make them ready-made on their schedule.

In conclusion, most small market teams are poorly run currently or have legacy of being poorly run, either through ownership issues, front office issues, or both. It's not a problem limited to just small markets -- the Knicks and Lakers have had their problems over the last 5-7 years too. The Knicks, during the 2000s, were a complete wasteland. STAT went to New York not for the titles (two -- that's just two) the Knicks had or the legacy -- they were willing to pay him big money despite his knee issues. For about 50 games, that looked like a good deal, especially paired with D'Antonio.

Then they gutted the team for Melo, STAT's injuries cropped up, and New York has not signed another prime All-Star free agent since. Big names? Sure. Solid players? Okay. Named to the All-Star team that year? Not that I can recall. You have Rose and Noah, past All-Stars, you have Jason Kidd and Tyson Chandler, previous champs with Dallas, but not a single other All-Star has willingly signed there since STAT.

Melo only came back for the extra year, the NTC (which is killing New York as we speak) and because his family was settled there. Melo, at the time, seemed to enjoy playing there. But the chronic mismanagement of the front office (three coaches in Melo's time there and one near Kurt Rambis hire as full-time HC), ownership (James Dolan, everyone) has led to the Knicks being a last-resort signing for most players.

If small market teams wants to retain their stars, they need to commit to surrounding those stars with other talent -- either through draft, trades, or free agency signings -- and putting those stars in the best position, on a consistent basis, to take their shot at their goal.

If they don't do that, the stars will leave, and the cycle will continue just as it did when they were there -- because the constant, almost always, is ownership. You can fire a coach. You can fire a player. You can fire a GM. But you can't fire an owner, unless they pull a Donald Sterling.

Spoiler

Good summary.. At the very least I learned a lot about these other teams lol. You make a good argument man. I can't really disagree with it. I agree if you build a good culture you can attract FA's, as evidenced by SA. It's odd to me though how practically no other small market can do that. Bad hiring after bad hiring, poor owners, etc. Not that it can't be done, but they've failed to do it. We'll see how things go moving forward.

One thing I'll add as far as Indy is concerned -- I give Bird a pass on the draft because in his entire tenure the highest draft pick we ever had was 10th overall. He had his misses like everyone, but overall did a good job there.

The biggest reason we couldn't retain our core from the ECF teams is because Hibbert inexplicably became useless, PG broke his leg that summer and DWest realized our window was closed and bolted for SA the following year. I can't put that stuff on the front office.

Where management failed was the last few years with Bird's idea of trying to emulate the Warriors. He wanted to go small and fast but failed to surround the team with any shooters and just generally made poor half *** attempts to put the team he envisioned together while ignoring the defensive side of the ball the entire time. And firing Vogel.. I was here voicing my displeasure on that from the jump. That decision was made worse when he replaced him with McMillan too.

Anyway, that's all I'll say here man. We've had this discussion too long now lol. It's getting tiring continuing it. You make a good argument though.

wwharton - You keep trying to get me to say I'm upset or something lol. I let my emotions out on PG last week when we were discussing him screwing us. Is that why I brought this topic up? No.. it played a part in it because I can't help but think of PG's situation when discussing this. But if anything I was thinking more about how Indy has been a steady playoff team for 25+ years, has had legit title contending teams here and there yet the best FA signing we've ever had is David West and after that... Monta Ellis??

But I was just talking.. it's the offseason. I responded to Pack's post because I disagreed with him saying he didn't understand why people bring the topic up when right or wrong there's a very well pushed narrative out there that small markets are at a disadvantage. I should've thought out my responses a little better though.. But regardless I'm good man.

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[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

From Zach Lowe regarding Porter's offer sheet

One more Porter wrinkle: Offer sheet calls for 50% of Porter's annual salary advanced to him by Oct. 1 every season, source says. Unusual.

According to Bobby Marks, that's the maximum allowed before October 1.


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