2018 Off-Season Thread

[areobee401]

Re: 2017-2018 Off-Season Thread

Teams think the Kings and Hawks are ‘likely to pass’ on Luka Doncic if he’s not taken 1st overall.

The growing consensus among NBA decision-makers in attendance at Stark Arena in Belgrade is that the teams drafting behind the Phoenix Suns at No. 1, the Sacramento Kings and Atlanta Hawks are likely to pass on European prodigy in favor of American frontcourt players. The question remains whether a team will trade up into the top three to snag Doncic, or if he will fall to the No. 4 (Memphis) or even the No. 5 pick (Dallas) after being heavily scouted in the Euroleague playoffs against Panathinaikos and mostly struggling.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23556715/nba-prospect-luka-doncic-helps-real-madrid-win-euroleague-title

[ojandpizza]

2017-2018 Off-Season Thread

Divac and Peja passing on Doncic? Hmm. Word is Atlanta really wants Bagley, do they try to move up to swap with SAC if that’s the case?


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[ehh]

Re: 2017-2018 Off-Season Thread

The Euro hate is real. Still can't believe Doncic isn't the consensus #1 overall, let alone might fall. Givony doesn't throw around garbage either; he's not that type of reporter/analyst.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2017-2018 Off-Season Thread

What is there to show he’s consensus number 1? I don’t think it’s euro hate, I just don’t know if people are comfortable drafting someone that high who isn’t doing it against all the other NBA prospects for the past 7-8 years. Lots of busts have come from overseas picks, and while the other guys could bust as well at least they have the size and athletic intangibles that make them worthwhile. Seems like they have less risk in general.

I understand he can shoot, handle the ball, pass, so can Trae Young who put up 27 and 9 while Doncic is at about 14 and 5. I understand the overseas stats in comparison are never a 1:1, but it’s not like he’s just demolishing everyone over there. Not saying he isn’t better than Trae Young, just using that as an example.

I think he looks very skilled, and should be a top 5 pick. But I definitely don’t think he’s a consensus number 1 and that anyone who passes on him is necessarily making a mistake.


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[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: 2017-2018 Off-Season Thread

I love that the article mentions how he struggle in EuroLeague play en route to winning league MVP and also MVP of the Final Four lol.

He’s been playing against much stronger competition than anyone in this draft and played better against that higher level of competition than most of the college kids did.

Ah well; he’d be a huge pickup for Memphis if he falls that far.


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[packerboy71]

Re: 2017-2018 Off-Season Thread

Find it strange how badly Butler wants Crawford back on the Wolves. Like I am sure he is a great guy and a very good locker room guy. He was a huge negative on the court for the most part.

[JazzMan]

Re: 2017-2018 Off-Season Thread

The Kings not picking Doncic is literally the most Kings thing I can think of.

Don't ruin this, Sacramento. Might as well move to Seattle smh

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[RedSceptile]

Re: 2017-2018 Off-Season Thread

The Kings not picking Doncic is literally the most Kings thing I can think of.

Don't ruin this, Sacramento. Might as well move to Seattle smh

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Just smoke screens in my opinion. Same thing every year with teams putting out that "yeah we aren't interested in this guy" vibe to check for deals and throw people off.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: 2017-2018 Off-Season Thread

I wish the Knicks had properly tanked. As a team who's wasted years drafting bust after bust from college and finally hit on 2 Euros, I'd love to have a crack at Doncic.

[ehh]

Re: 2017-2018 Off-Season Thread

What is there to show he’s consensus number 1? I don’t think it’s euro hate, I just don’t know if people are comfortable drafting someone that high who isn’t doing it against all the other NBA prospects for the past 7-8 years. Lots of busts have come from overseas picks, and while the other guys could bust as well at least they have the size and athletic intangibles that make them worthwhile. Seems like they have less risk in general.

I understand he can shoot, handle the ball, pass, so can Trae Young who put up 27 and 9 while Doncic is at about 14 and 5. I understand the overseas stats in comparison are never a 1:1, but it’s not like he’s just demolishing everyone over there. Not saying he isn’t better than Trae Young, just using that as an example.

It's as much about Doncic as it is about the top American prospects: I think they're overrated.

Ayton and Bagley's defense is a non-starter when someone like Doncic is on the board IMO. Even if Ayton pans out and becomes Boogie or Embiid offensively, he's going to be so bad defensively that he might be in the Valanciunas and Kanter category where you can't play the kid down the stretch of tight games. Their defense isn't simply a weakness they need to work on; their college defensive metrics are two of the worst in the last dozen years for lottery big men. Both of their instincts are poor. Their block and steal rates given their size and athletic advantages are alarming. Neither of these guys makes their teammates better either.

Trae Young had a hot start and then struggled once teams figured him out and when Big XII play started and the competition got tougher. His team fell off, going 4-11 down the stretch or whatever it was. Doncic just won MVP (regular season and playoffs) in the second-best league in the world; a league significantly better than the NCAA. He's the youngest MVP over there by four years. No one puts up gaudy stats overseas. Porzingis averaged 11 & 4 his last year overseas.

Doncic's game fits today's NBA better than Ayton or Bagley. There have been too many busts recently for me to roll the dice on one of these bigs over Doncic. They aren't modern stretch big men offensively (yet; Bagley might get there but I have my doubts about Ayton) combined with their defensive issues. Doncic is a 6'8" playmaker who'll immediately make his team better; not that different from what Simmons brought to Philly this year. You want a guy who you can build around, run your offense through and make your team better for the next dozen years; I wouldn't be able to pass that up if I'm PHX.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2017-2018 Off-Season Thread

I just can’t agree with all of that. Doncic looks like a good, smart, highly skilled player but he doesn’t look like a sure fire star to me. And his ceiling seems lower than a Bagley or Ayton.

He doesn’t compare to a Ben Simmons at all to me. I don’t even believe he’ll play point guard in the NBA. Maybe with Phoenix and Booker, he would have to. Simmons is bigger, faster, stronger, a better finisher, passer, rebounder, and defender. I legitimately see zero comparison outside of them both being taller than most lead ball handlers.

Not saying he can’t be as good or better than than Simmons, I just don’t see any comparisons between the two of them other than they are tall.

He doesn’t seem overly quick to me, lacks explosiveness, I don’t know how well he moves laterally. Far too often you see players who look incredibly athletic playing overseas get to the league and look average from that standpoint. Obviously he doesn’t have to rely on that because of his skill set, but it vastly lowers his ceiling. He may play in the “better league” in terms of competition across the board and grow men, but nearly every other player drafted in the top 15 of this class is American. And any scout that’s done his homework has seen these guys competing against each other for 5+ years now. They know how they stack up against other players in this draft. With Doncic, they don’t. Hell Bagley has already played against NBA guys and shown to hold his own.

I agree his play style could ultimately be a better fit, but for how long? There are reasons guys like AD, Embiid, Towns are sought after so highly in the draft, good guard are easy to come by.

I have no doubt in my mind that he’ll be a good player in the league. But I’m not taking him by passing up a chance for what might be great. How many “great” players have been taken from Europe? Dirk, maybe Tony Parker and Pau.. the list basically stops there. I think most teams would love to pick up a Tony Parker level player in the top 3, but they wouldn’t pass up would could be the Tim Duncan level player to get him.

5 years from now he might be the best player from this class. But I don’t think someone who drafts the potential on the chance of Bagley or Ayton being great is making a mistake in doing so.


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[ehh]

Re: 2017-2018 Off-Season Thread

I just can’t agree with all of that. Doncic looks like a good, smart, highly skilled player but he doesn’t look like a sure fire star to me. And his ceiling seems lower than a Bagley or Ayton.

Sure, the concerns with his athleticism are valid. Do Bagley and Ayton look like a sure-fire star though? Both have major flaws. The only thing they have on Doncic is measureables. IMO Bagley's ceiling is a poor man's KAT. I still can't find a good comparison for Ayton in terms of ceiling but a Boogie-level of impact is probably accurate.

He doesn’t compare to a Ben Simmons at all to me. Simmons is bigger, faster, stronger, a better finisher, passer, rebounder, and defender. I legitimately see zero comparison outside of them both being taller than most lead ball handlers.

Good, because that's where my comparison ended lol. I was comparing them for their impact as a bigger playmaker, not their individual strengths and weaknesses, and how much they can improve a team/make others better. So yes, you're right, that's what I was comparing them as. Though I do think Doncic is every bit the passer Simmons is and may become better.

I don’t even believe he’ll play point guard in the NBA.

Damn. If you're a GM and you don't think Doncic can be your PG/primary playmaker then I wouldn't bother taking him the Top 10. You're basically saying he can't do what he does (and is supposed to do). If he can't play PG in the NBA he'll be a role player.

He doesn’t seem overly quick to me, lacks explosiveness, I don’t know how well he moves laterally. Far too often you see players who look incredibly athletic playing overseas get to the league and look average from that standpoint.

He doesn't look great athletically even overseas but I think his size will create the matchup problems to negate that. He already has a good back-to-the-basket game and kills smaller players in the post. His footwork, at 19, is darn impressive. A 6'8 kid who can post, pass, shoot and run a PnR effectively? In today's NBA? Yes, please.

He may play in the “better league” in terms of competition across the board and grow men, but nearly every other player drafted in the top 15 of this class is American. And any scout that’s done his homework has seen these guys competing against each other for 5+ years now. They know how they stack up against other players in this draft. With Doncic, they don’t.

I don't think this is important. I don't care how 15-18-year-old prospects look against each other, I care about how they'll look in the NBA. I have no doubt that Bagley can hold is how against pros, he won't be a bust. He's an athletic 6'11" though he has average length.

I agree his play style could ultimately be a better fit, but for how long? There are reasons guys like AD, Embiid, Towns are sought after so highly in the draft, good guard are easy to come by.

This seems like a 1990s take. You mention Embiid yet he was taken third after two wings so teams aren't coveting them that much. There's a ton to love about Embiid yet him getting murdered by Boston's PnR and his ole-defense on Horford on the perimeter is a fairly big reason why they lost to Boston. Ayton is a much worse defender than Embiid ever was at Kansas. Towns is dreadful defensively, he still has a lot to prove as a winning player.

This is what I keep mentioning about Ayton/Bagley. I have no interest in having a great offensive player who's so bad defensively on the perimeter and in PnR that opposing teams say "hey, we need to attack this guy endlessly because he can't guard anyone". That's not a situation I want to be in with my Top 3 pick. A couple of my friends who are Sixers fans are very conflicted on Embiid due to this weakness.

AD is obviously the exception as he's a generational two-way talent.

I have no doubt in my mind that he’ll be a good player in the league. But I’m not taking him by passing up a chance for what might be great. How many “great” players have been taken from Europe? Dirk, maybe Tony Parker and Pau.. the list basically stops there. I think most teams would love to pick up a Tony Parker level player in the top 3, but they wouldn’t pass up would could be the Tim Duncan level player to get him.

This is where we have to agree to disagree in this draft. In another situation, sure I'd completely agree but Ayton or Bagley aren't that level of prospect. How many Americans have been taken at the top of the draft due to their measurables because cocky coaches think they can develop them but they bust?

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2017-2018 Off-Season Thread

This is where we have to agree to disagree in this draft. In another situation, sure I'd completely agree but Ayton or Bagley aren't that level of prospect. How many Americans have been taken at the top of the draft due to their measurables because cocky coaches think they can develop them but they bust?

They aren’t that level of prospect now, but neither was Tim Duncan after his freshman year either. That’s kind of my point with big men this skilled. It’s not necessarily what they are at 18 years old, but what they look like at 20, 21.

But like you said, they could just as well bust.



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[Jeffx]

Re: 2017-2018 Off-Season Thread

So Towns is expected to come up in trade talks.. apparently he and the Wolves “not in a good place internally” per Lowe and Windhorst.


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Devin Booker posted a picture of Towns wearing a Suns jersey on Twitter. Think there might be something brewing?

[King_B_Mack]

Re: 2017-2018 Off-Season Thread

Just saw Woj report that the Clippers have extended the contract of Doc Rivers. He had one year left on his deal.

Gone ahead and get ‘em Dre.


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