Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

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  • Kashanova
    Hall Of Fame
    • Aug 2003
    • 12695

    #16
    Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

    The reason why those players were so solid was cause jordan and pip made them better the same way shaq makes players around him players kobe has yet to prove he can do that

    Comment

    • Kashanova
      Hall Of Fame
      • Aug 2003
      • 12695

      #17
      Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

      The reason why those players were so solid was cause jordan and pip made them better the same way shaq makes players around him players kobe has yet to prove he can do that

      Comment

      • CMH
        Making you famous
        • Oct 2002
        • 26203

        #18
        Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

        Originally posted by monkey
        Where'd you get that idea from Yank??

        What, Hakeem...Patty Ewing...The Admiral pre Duncan...were never given the ball with the game on the line?? They got it every time!

        Shaq simply has never had that responsibilty because he can't hit free throws.

        Thus...he was damm lucky to have a 'clutch' guard on his team. Otherwise he'd have ZERO rings. Same as Kobe was lucky to have a dominant big man to get him to crunch time.

        Neither was / is Jordan like. MJ got his team there...and finished the job.

        And I wasn't even an MJ fan...but man, the guy was on a different planet.

        Good point, but also consider who else was on the team for those guys and consider the players you mentioned.

        Rockets. I rather have Olajuwon (who can by the way dribble a bit and hit the outside shot) take the game-winner instead of Drexler, Cassell, or Kenny Smith.

        Knicks. Again, Ewing can hit the outside shot. Rather he be given the ball than Starks, or Sprewell.

        Spurs. Robinson/Duncan can also hit the outside shot. Rather them then Ginobili, Elie, or Kerr.

        After a timeout, on the half court line, you would not see any of the guys you named get the ball on the inbound pass. They would be getting the ball beyond the three-point line. Not the ideal situation for them to hit a game-winning shot.

        Most of the time, a Drexler, Kerr, or Starks got the ball on the inbound and then quickly ran a play to get the ball to Olajuwon, Robinson/Duncan, and Ewing.

        You wouldn't give Shaq the ball beyond the 3pt line. Kobe, yes, because if he isn't fouled he has a better shot at hitting a 20 footer than Shaq.
        "It may well be that we spectators, who are not divinely gifted as athletes, are the only ones able to truly see, articulate and animate the experience of the gift we are denied. And that those who receive and act out the gift of athletic genius must, perforce, be blind and dumb about it -- and not because blindness and dumbness are the price of the gift, but because they are its essence." - David Foster Wallace

        "You'll not find more penny-wise/pound-foolish behavior than in Major League Baseball." - Rob Neyer

        Comment

        • CMH
          Making you famous
          • Oct 2002
          • 26203

          #19
          Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

          Originally posted by monkey
          Where'd you get that idea from Yank??

          What, Hakeem...Patty Ewing...The Admiral pre Duncan...were never given the ball with the game on the line?? They got it every time!

          Shaq simply has never had that responsibilty because he can't hit free throws.

          Thus...he was damm lucky to have a 'clutch' guard on his team. Otherwise he'd have ZERO rings. Same as Kobe was lucky to have a dominant big man to get him to crunch time.

          Neither was / is Jordan like. MJ got his team there...and finished the job.

          And I wasn't even an MJ fan...but man, the guy was on a different planet.

          Good point, but also consider who else was on the team for those guys and consider the players you mentioned.

          Rockets. I rather have Olajuwon (who can by the way dribble a bit and hit the outside shot) take the game-winner instead of Drexler, Cassell, or Kenny Smith.

          Knicks. Again, Ewing can hit the outside shot. Rather he be given the ball than Starks, or Sprewell.

          Spurs. Robinson/Duncan can also hit the outside shot. Rather them then Ginobili, Elie, or Kerr.

          After a timeout, on the half court line, you would not see any of the guys you named get the ball on the inbound pass. They would be getting the ball beyond the three-point line. Not the ideal situation for them to hit a game-winning shot.

          Most of the time, a Drexler, Kerr, or Starks got the ball on the inbound and then quickly ran a play to get the ball to Olajuwon, Robinson/Duncan, and Ewing.

          You wouldn't give Shaq the ball beyond the 3pt line. Kobe, yes, because if he isn't fouled he has a better shot at hitting a 20 footer than Shaq.
          "It may well be that we spectators, who are not divinely gifted as athletes, are the only ones able to truly see, articulate and animate the experience of the gift we are denied. And that those who receive and act out the gift of athletic genius must, perforce, be blind and dumb about it -- and not because blindness and dumbness are the price of the gift, but because they are its essence." - David Foster Wallace

          "You'll not find more penny-wise/pound-foolish behavior than in Major League Baseball." - Rob Neyer

          Comment

          • Dynasty4Kobe
            MVP
            • Apr 2003
            • 2769

            #20
            Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

            Originally posted by Kashanova
            The reason why those players were so solid was cause jordan and pip made them better the same way shaq makes players around him players kobe has yet to prove he can do that
            It is early in the season, but Kobe has shown signs that he can make other players play better. Brian Cook has actually become an somewhat of an outside threat, which is all off of the attention that Kobe draws. Virtually the entire starting lineup's Field Goal Percentage is up from last year. Obvously Shaq made other players much better, but saying Kobe hadn't/doesn't do anything to make others better isn't necessarily true. Especially down the stretch, Kobe is the playmaker for other players.

            In Game Three at Portland in the 2000 Western Conference Finals, it was Kobe making the pass to Ron Harper's huge shot in the 4th quarter.

            In Game Seven against Portland in the 2000 Western Conference Finals, it was Kobe drawing in the defense and setting up the alley for Shaq's oop.

            In Game 3 at Portland in the First Round of the 2002 Playoffs, it was Kobe driving it in, and dishing it out to Horry in the corner for the series winning three pointer.

            In Game 6 against the Timberwolves in the 2004 Western Conference Finals, Kobe was the primary player feeding Kareem Rush's three point barrage.

            Other situations are when Kobe may not have made the play, but was a big reason for the way things turned out.

            In Game 4 against Sacramento in the 2002 Western Conferance Finals, it was Kobe sucking in the defense leaving Horry open at the top of the key. Without Kobe's ability to bring in the entire Kings team into the paint, the ball could never have gotten to Horry because Webber would have been there).

            In Game 5 against the Spurs in 2004, a lot of people said (analysts) said the only reason Gary Payton could deliver that perfect inbounds pass to Fisher was because Robert Horry had to come away and double team Kobe Bryant off the ball, giving Payton a great view of the court.

            Comment

            • Dynasty4Kobe
              MVP
              • Apr 2003
              • 2769

              #21
              Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

              Originally posted by Kashanova
              The reason why those players were so solid was cause jordan and pip made them better the same way shaq makes players around him players kobe has yet to prove he can do that
              It is early in the season, but Kobe has shown signs that he can make other players play better. Brian Cook has actually become an somewhat of an outside threat, which is all off of the attention that Kobe draws. Virtually the entire starting lineup's Field Goal Percentage is up from last year. Obvously Shaq made other players much better, but saying Kobe hadn't/doesn't do anything to make others better isn't necessarily true. Especially down the stretch, Kobe is the playmaker for other players.

              In Game Three at Portland in the 2000 Western Conference Finals, it was Kobe making the pass to Ron Harper's huge shot in the 4th quarter.

              In Game Seven against Portland in the 2000 Western Conference Finals, it was Kobe drawing in the defense and setting up the alley for Shaq's oop.

              In Game 3 at Portland in the First Round of the 2002 Playoffs, it was Kobe driving it in, and dishing it out to Horry in the corner for the series winning three pointer.

              In Game 6 against the Timberwolves in the 2004 Western Conference Finals, Kobe was the primary player feeding Kareem Rush's three point barrage.

              Other situations are when Kobe may not have made the play, but was a big reason for the way things turned out.

              In Game 4 against Sacramento in the 2002 Western Conferance Finals, it was Kobe sucking in the defense leaving Horry open at the top of the key. Without Kobe's ability to bring in the entire Kings team into the paint, the ball could never have gotten to Horry because Webber would have been there).

              In Game 5 against the Spurs in 2004, a lot of people said (analysts) said the only reason Gary Payton could deliver that perfect inbounds pass to Fisher was because Robert Horry had to come away and double team Kobe Bryant off the ball, giving Payton a great view of the court.

              Comment

              • Court_vision
                Banned
                • Oct 2002
                • 8290

                #22
                Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

                Originally posted by YankeePride_YP
                Good point, but also consider who else was on the team for those guys and consider the players you mentioned.

                Rockets. I rather have Olajuwon (who can by the way dribble a bit and hit the outside shot) take the game-winner instead of Drexler, Cassell, or Kenny Smith.

                Knicks. Again, Ewing can hit the outside shot. Rather he be given the ball than Starks, or Sprewell.

                Spurs. Robinson/Duncan can also hit the outside shot. Rather them then Ginobili, Elie, or Kerr.

                After a timeout, on the half court line, you would not see any of the guys you named get the ball on the inbound pass. They would be getting the ball beyond the three-point line. Not the ideal situation for them to hit a game-winning shot.

                Most of the time, a Drexler, Kerr, or Starks got the ball on the inbound and then quickly ran a play to get the ball to Olajuwon, Robinson/Duncan, and Ewing.

                You wouldn't give Shaq the ball beyond the 3pt line. Kobe, yes, because if he isn't fouled he has a better shot at hitting a 20 footer than Shaq.
                Agreed, and I see your point.

                I just feel that Shaq has been 'lucky' in that regard. I mean, most all time greats / legit franchise guys have always had to take the last shot.

                Shaq is the exception.

                Without Kobe to do that, IMO, he gets no rings.

                If Patty Ewing in his prime had Kobe, Pat would have 3 rings.

                Again, not to take away from Shaq's career...but he's never had to take the last shot like every other franchise type guy has.

                Comment

                • Court_vision
                  Banned
                  • Oct 2002
                  • 8290

                  #23
                  Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

                  Originally posted by YankeePride_YP
                  Good point, but also consider who else was on the team for those guys and consider the players you mentioned.

                  Rockets. I rather have Olajuwon (who can by the way dribble a bit and hit the outside shot) take the game-winner instead of Drexler, Cassell, or Kenny Smith.

                  Knicks. Again, Ewing can hit the outside shot. Rather he be given the ball than Starks, or Sprewell.

                  Spurs. Robinson/Duncan can also hit the outside shot. Rather them then Ginobili, Elie, or Kerr.

                  After a timeout, on the half court line, you would not see any of the guys you named get the ball on the inbound pass. They would be getting the ball beyond the three-point line. Not the ideal situation for them to hit a game-winning shot.

                  Most of the time, a Drexler, Kerr, or Starks got the ball on the inbound and then quickly ran a play to get the ball to Olajuwon, Robinson/Duncan, and Ewing.

                  You wouldn't give Shaq the ball beyond the 3pt line. Kobe, yes, because if he isn't fouled he has a better shot at hitting a 20 footer than Shaq.
                  Agreed, and I see your point.

                  I just feel that Shaq has been 'lucky' in that regard. I mean, most all time greats / legit franchise guys have always had to take the last shot.

                  Shaq is the exception.

                  Without Kobe to do that, IMO, he gets no rings.

                  If Patty Ewing in his prime had Kobe, Pat would have 3 rings.

                  Again, not to take away from Shaq's career...but he's never had to take the last shot like every other franchise type guy has.

                  Comment

                  • rbruns
                    Banned
                    • Oct 2002
                    • 777

                    #24
                    Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

                    You're talking about one shot to win a game. You act like that is what won the game. What WON the game was Shaq's 35 points and 15 rebounds, STUPID. Not one shot that put the team ahead at the end. It was Shaq's dominance for 47 minutes that did it. Take away Shaq's 35 and 15, and Kobe's getting his arse kicked by the other team. So should we say REggie Miller is a top 10 player of all time cuz he has tons of moments like Kobe? Idiots. Think about it. All Kobe's fans can come up with is one magical shot here and there. Notice they don't point out how Shaq had 35 pts and 15 rebounds per game in the finals, over a series. Or how Shaq carried LA for an entire season, which is proven by his MVP. Or how LA's winning % when Shaq was out was horrible. Like 2-12 that season 2 years ago. How Shaq got Finals MVP 3 times, to 0 for Kobe. Use your darn heads. Kobe's one shot that wins games don't mean jack. That's why we don't talk about Robert Horry and Steve Kerr being Hall of Famers. Even if Pippen had been clutch, we still wouldn't give him large credit for MJ's rings. We still knew MJ got em there, just like Shaq's ENTIRE GAME dominance is what won titles, not Kobe's 1 shot at the end. Kobe fans are such wans. Geez.

                    Comment

                    • rbruns
                      Banned
                      • Oct 2002
                      • 777

                      #25
                      Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

                      You're talking about one shot to win a game. You act like that is what won the game. What WON the game was Shaq's 35 points and 15 rebounds, STUPID. Not one shot that put the team ahead at the end. It was Shaq's dominance for 47 minutes that did it. Take away Shaq's 35 and 15, and Kobe's getting his arse kicked by the other team. So should we say REggie Miller is a top 10 player of all time cuz he has tons of moments like Kobe? Idiots. Think about it. All Kobe's fans can come up with is one magical shot here and there. Notice they don't point out how Shaq had 35 pts and 15 rebounds per game in the finals, over a series. Or how Shaq carried LA for an entire season, which is proven by his MVP. Or how LA's winning % when Shaq was out was horrible. Like 2-12 that season 2 years ago. How Shaq got Finals MVP 3 times, to 0 for Kobe. Use your darn heads. Kobe's one shot that wins games don't mean jack. That's why we don't talk about Robert Horry and Steve Kerr being Hall of Famers. Even if Pippen had been clutch, we still wouldn't give him large credit for MJ's rings. We still knew MJ got em there, just like Shaq's ENTIRE GAME dominance is what won titles, not Kobe's 1 shot at the end. Kobe fans are such wans. Geez.

                      Comment

                      • Dynasty4Kobe
                        MVP
                        • Apr 2003
                        • 2769

                        #26
                        Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

                        Originally posted by rbruns
                        You're talking about one shot to win a game. You act like that is what won the game. What WON the game was Shaq's 35 points and 15 rebounds, STUPID. Not one shot that put the team ahead at the end. It was Shaq's dominance for 47 minutes that did it. Take away Shaq's 35 and 15, and Kobe's getting his arse kicked by the other team. So should we say REggie Miller is a top 10 player of all time cuz he has tons of moments like Kobe? Idiots. Think about it. All Kobe's fans can come up with is one magical shot here and there. Notice they don't point out how Shaq had 35 pts and 15 rebounds per game in the finals, over a series. Or how Shaq carried LA for an entire season, which is proven by his MVP. Or how LA's winning % when Shaq was out was horrible. Like 2-12 that season 2 years ago. How Shaq got Finals MVP 3 times, to 0 for Kobe. Use your darn heads. Kobe's one shot that wins games don't mean jack. That's why we don't talk about Robert Horry and Steve Kerr being Hall of Famers. Even if Pippen had been clutch, we still wouldn't give him large credit for MJ's rings. We still knew MJ got em there, just like Shaq's ENTIRE GAME dominance is what won titles, not Kobe's 1 shot at the end. Kobe fans are such wans. Geez.
                        Stupid? Idiots? Wans?
                        What a brilliant discussion!


                        I wasn't even talking about Shaq, stats, or even Kobe's game winning shots for that matter. Somebody said that Kobe can't make other players better and I responded with some situations where he has. Those are just a couple of situations that people would remember. If I had said "Remember in the 1st quarter where Kobe passed to Brian Cook and he made those two jump shots," nobody would have even known what I was talking about.

                        I was on an entirely different topic that somebody else brought up.

                        Yes, Shaq was the primary force behind the Lakers 3 championships, but that had nothing to do with what I was talking about.

                        I think this has been beaten to death. Kobe and Shaq BOTH NEEDED each other to win their rings. You can make as many fantasy arguments you want, but those two were the ones that won the rings. Iverson and Shaq didn't win, T-Mac and Shaq didn't win, Pierce and Shaq didn't win, etc. so people who say "Iverson/McGrady/Pierce/(Insert Next Guard) could have won with Shaq" have no support for their argument.

                        Comment

                        • Dynasty4Kobe
                          MVP
                          • Apr 2003
                          • 2769

                          #27
                          Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

                          Originally posted by rbruns
                          You're talking about one shot to win a game. You act like that is what won the game. What WON the game was Shaq's 35 points and 15 rebounds, STUPID. Not one shot that put the team ahead at the end. It was Shaq's dominance for 47 minutes that did it. Take away Shaq's 35 and 15, and Kobe's getting his arse kicked by the other team. So should we say REggie Miller is a top 10 player of all time cuz he has tons of moments like Kobe? Idiots. Think about it. All Kobe's fans can come up with is one magical shot here and there. Notice they don't point out how Shaq had 35 pts and 15 rebounds per game in the finals, over a series. Or how Shaq carried LA for an entire season, which is proven by his MVP. Or how LA's winning % when Shaq was out was horrible. Like 2-12 that season 2 years ago. How Shaq got Finals MVP 3 times, to 0 for Kobe. Use your darn heads. Kobe's one shot that wins games don't mean jack. That's why we don't talk about Robert Horry and Steve Kerr being Hall of Famers. Even if Pippen had been clutch, we still wouldn't give him large credit for MJ's rings. We still knew MJ got em there, just like Shaq's ENTIRE GAME dominance is what won titles, not Kobe's 1 shot at the end. Kobe fans are such wans. Geez.
                          Stupid? Idiots? Wans?
                          What a brilliant discussion!


                          I wasn't even talking about Shaq, stats, or even Kobe's game winning shots for that matter. Somebody said that Kobe can't make other players better and I responded with some situations where he has. Those are just a couple of situations that people would remember. If I had said "Remember in the 1st quarter where Kobe passed to Brian Cook and he made those two jump shots," nobody would have even known what I was talking about.

                          I was on an entirely different topic that somebody else brought up.

                          Yes, Shaq was the primary force behind the Lakers 3 championships, but that had nothing to do with what I was talking about.

                          I think this has been beaten to death. Kobe and Shaq BOTH NEEDED each other to win their rings. You can make as many fantasy arguments you want, but those two were the ones that won the rings. Iverson and Shaq didn't win, T-Mac and Shaq didn't win, Pierce and Shaq didn't win, etc. so people who say "Iverson/McGrady/Pierce/(Insert Next Guard) could have won with Shaq" have no support for their argument.

                          Comment

                          • 23
                            yellow
                            • Sep 2002
                            • 66469

                            #28
                            Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

                            This clutch madness is OVERRATED, AND WITHOUT SHAQ THE 3 TIME FINALS MVP THERE WOULD BE NO SITUATION TO BE ABLE TO HAVE TO EVEN BE PUT IN THE SITUATION FOR A SHOT TO BE MADE, AND FOR THE MOST PART IT WAS SHAQ WHO DREW ALL OF THE ATTENTION AND EVEN TOOK GUYS OFF OF KOBE.

                            Comment

                            • 23
                              yellow
                              • Sep 2002
                              • 66469

                              #29
                              Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

                              This clutch madness is OVERRATED, AND WITHOUT SHAQ THE 3 TIME FINALS MVP THERE WOULD BE NO SITUATION TO BE ABLE TO HAVE TO EVEN BE PUT IN THE SITUATION FOR A SHOT TO BE MADE, AND FOR THE MOST PART IT WAS SHAQ WHO DREW ALL OF THE ATTENTION AND EVEN TOOK GUYS OFF OF KOBE.

                              Comment

                              • CMH
                                Making you famous
                                • Oct 2002
                                • 26203

                                #30
                                Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

                                Originally posted by monkey
                                Agreed, and I see your point.

                                I just feel that Shaq has been 'lucky' in that regard. I mean, most all time greats / legit franchise guys have always had to take the last shot.

                                Shaq is the exception.

                                Without Kobe to do that, IMO, he gets no rings.

                                If Patty Ewing in his prime had Kobe, Pat would have 3 rings.

                                Again, not to take away from Shaq's career...but he's never had to take the last shot like every other franchise type guy has.
                                Oh, I agree. I see your point as well.

                                Shaq definitely benefitted from Kobe.

                                The thing is, Shaq realizes this. He talks about Hardaway and now Wade in that sense. Yea, he gets a bit arrogant about it ("I made them great") but he realizes that they help him get double teams off him.

                                Kobe, on the other hand, never seems to acknowledge that without Shaq he'd have zero rings as well.

                                But, we are getting into a different discussion here.

                                Shaq to Kobe is not equal to Jordan and Pippen. Same offense. Same coach. Same amount of championships in their own 3 year runs. Different method.
                                "It may well be that we spectators, who are not divinely gifted as athletes, are the only ones able to truly see, articulate and animate the experience of the gift we are denied. And that those who receive and act out the gift of athletic genius must, perforce, be blind and dumb about it -- and not because blindness and dumbness are the price of the gift, but because they are its essence." - David Foster Wallace

                                "You'll not find more penny-wise/pound-foolish behavior than in Major League Baseball." - Rob Neyer

                                Comment

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