Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

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  • CMH
    Making you famous
    • Oct 2002
    • 26203

    #31
    Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

    Originally posted by monkey
    Agreed, and I see your point.

    I just feel that Shaq has been 'lucky' in that regard. I mean, most all time greats / legit franchise guys have always had to take the last shot.

    Shaq is the exception.

    Without Kobe to do that, IMO, he gets no rings.

    If Patty Ewing in his prime had Kobe, Pat would have 3 rings.

    Again, not to take away from Shaq's career...but he's never had to take the last shot like every other franchise type guy has.
    Oh, I agree. I see your point as well.

    Shaq definitely benefitted from Kobe.

    The thing is, Shaq realizes this. He talks about Hardaway and now Wade in that sense. Yea, he gets a bit arrogant about it ("I made them great") but he realizes that they help him get double teams off him.

    Kobe, on the other hand, never seems to acknowledge that without Shaq he'd have zero rings as well.

    But, we are getting into a different discussion here.

    Shaq to Kobe is not equal to Jordan and Pippen. Same offense. Same coach. Same amount of championships in their own 3 year runs. Different method.
    "It may well be that we spectators, who are not divinely gifted as athletes, are the only ones able to truly see, articulate and animate the experience of the gift we are denied. And that those who receive and act out the gift of athletic genius must, perforce, be blind and dumb about it -- and not because blindness and dumbness are the price of the gift, but because they are its essence." - David Foster Wallace

    "You'll not find more penny-wise/pound-foolish behavior than in Major League Baseball." - Rob Neyer

    Comment

    • rbruns
      Banned
      • Oct 2002
      • 777

      #32
      Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

      Yes it is. Shaq was simply that much better during those title runs than Kobe was. Just like MJ was to Pip. Shaq won 1 MVP, Kobe 0. Shaq had 3 Finals MVPs, Kobe 0. Shaq was triple teamed all the time, then. Kobe only got doubled when he was hot. Shaq was roundly seen as the best player then. Kobe was not. Shaq grabbed all the rebounds, was the focal point of LA's offense, Shaq was blocking shots, anchoring the defense then, and shooting 58 % from the field, yet still scoring 28-29 points. Kobe fed off Shaq's interior presence, just like Rick Fox, D Fish did. Whenever Shaq got hurt during the title years, LA sucked. Shaq was the MAN. Kobe was 2nd banana, just like Pip.

      Comment

      • rbruns
        Banned
        • Oct 2002
        • 777

        #33
        Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

        Yes it is. Shaq was simply that much better during those title runs than Kobe was. Just like MJ was to Pip. Shaq won 1 MVP, Kobe 0. Shaq had 3 Finals MVPs, Kobe 0. Shaq was triple teamed all the time, then. Kobe only got doubled when he was hot. Shaq was roundly seen as the best player then. Kobe was not. Shaq grabbed all the rebounds, was the focal point of LA's offense, Shaq was blocking shots, anchoring the defense then, and shooting 58 % from the field, yet still scoring 28-29 points. Kobe fed off Shaq's interior presence, just like Rick Fox, D Fish did. Whenever Shaq got hurt during the title years, LA sucked. Shaq was the MAN. Kobe was 2nd banana, just like Pip.

        Comment

        • fobbybobby23
          Pro
          • Sep 2004
          • 825

          #34
          Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

          yea but kobe was still needed to pusht he lakers PAST the other team in the clutch, and he delivered

          kobe is just as important as shaq is, even if its only for 1 minute

          Comment

          • fobbybobby23
            Pro
            • Sep 2004
            • 825

            #35
            Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

            yea but kobe was still needed to pusht he lakers PAST the other team in the clutch, and he delivered

            kobe is just as important as shaq is, even if its only for 1 minute

            Comment

            • 23
              yellow
              • Sep 2002
              • 66469

              #36
              Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

              He was important, but not the most important. Just look at the results when Shaq wasnt the focal point anymore

              Comment

              • 23
                yellow
                • Sep 2002
                • 66469

                #37
                Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

                He was important, but not the most important. Just look at the results when Shaq wasnt the focal point anymore

                Comment

                • rbruns
                  Banned
                  • Oct 2002
                  • 777

                  #38
                  Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

                  Kobe as important as Shaq is, even if it was for 1 minute? Have we lost all common sense? 47 minutes vs 1 minute? Hmmm.... Again, I repeat myself. There were many times Steve Kerr, John Paxson, etc.... hit clutch shots. Do we give them Hall of Fame status, or say Jordan needed them b/c he was double teamed and had to give the ball up??? No, Jordan carried the Bulls. Did other players step up? Yes. Pippen was a 20 + scorer, shot 50 % from the field, unlike Kobe, who's shooting 39 % w/o the Diesel. And Pippen was a he** of a lot better defender then Kobe ever will be. Pippen also was equal to or better than Kobe as a passer, he could have averaged 8 or 9 assists if he dominated the ball like Kobe. Look at Pip's season w/o Jordan. The bulls went 55-27, and Pip averaged 23-8 and 8, or something like that, on 50 % shooting. Yet Kobe can't even win 50 games w/LA, and he's got Odom, Caron, etc. Pip won 55 with Paxson, Horace Grant, and ummm.... yeah, no other decent players. And I will worship Kobe if LA wins 50 games this year, HE WONT. Pip was probably better than Kobe is now. Yet you think Kobe is in Shaq's league, when Shaq was 28,29, 30 yrs old?? You must smoke a LOT of weed. Shaq was just as much option #1 on LA when he was 28 yrs old, as MJ was for the Bulls. Shaq won 3 titles, and Kobe wasn't even as good as Pippen, IMO. Pippen shot a higher percentage, was a better defender, equal or better as a passer, and definitely better as a defender. Checkmate. Like I said, Kobe isn't even shooting 40 % for crying out loud, and we've played 20 games already. LA is 11-9, WOW. To me, Dwayne Wade's had a better season than Kobe. Geez.

                  Comment

                  • rbruns
                    Banned
                    • Oct 2002
                    • 777

                    #39
                    Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

                    Kobe as important as Shaq is, even if it was for 1 minute? Have we lost all common sense? 47 minutes vs 1 minute? Hmmm.... Again, I repeat myself. There were many times Steve Kerr, John Paxson, etc.... hit clutch shots. Do we give them Hall of Fame status, or say Jordan needed them b/c he was double teamed and had to give the ball up??? No, Jordan carried the Bulls. Did other players step up? Yes. Pippen was a 20 + scorer, shot 50 % from the field, unlike Kobe, who's shooting 39 % w/o the Diesel. And Pippen was a he** of a lot better defender then Kobe ever will be. Pippen also was equal to or better than Kobe as a passer, he could have averaged 8 or 9 assists if he dominated the ball like Kobe. Look at Pip's season w/o Jordan. The bulls went 55-27, and Pip averaged 23-8 and 8, or something like that, on 50 % shooting. Yet Kobe can't even win 50 games w/LA, and he's got Odom, Caron, etc. Pip won 55 with Paxson, Horace Grant, and ummm.... yeah, no other decent players. And I will worship Kobe if LA wins 50 games this year, HE WONT. Pip was probably better than Kobe is now. Yet you think Kobe is in Shaq's league, when Shaq was 28,29, 30 yrs old?? You must smoke a LOT of weed. Shaq was just as much option #1 on LA when he was 28 yrs old, as MJ was for the Bulls. Shaq won 3 titles, and Kobe wasn't even as good as Pippen, IMO. Pippen shot a higher percentage, was a better defender, equal or better as a passer, and definitely better as a defender. Checkmate. Like I said, Kobe isn't even shooting 40 % for crying out loud, and we've played 20 games already. LA is 11-9, WOW. To me, Dwayne Wade's had a better season than Kobe. Geez.

                    Comment

                    • Court_vision
                      Banned
                      • Oct 2002
                      • 8290

                      #40
                      Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

                      Originally posted by rbruns
                      You're talking about one shot to win a game. You act like that is what won the game. What WON the game was Shaq's 35 points and 15 rebounds, STUPID. Not one shot that put the team ahead at the end. It was Shaq's dominance for 47 minutes that did it. Take away Shaq's 35 and 15, and Kobe's getting his arse kicked by the other team. So should we say REggie Miller is a top 10 player of all time cuz he has tons of moments like Kobe? Idiots. Think about it. All Kobe's fans can come up with is one magical shot here and there. Notice they don't point out how Shaq had 35 pts and 15 rebounds per game in the finals, over a series. Or how Shaq carried LA for an entire season, which is proven by his MVP. Or how LA's winning % when Shaq was out was horrible. Like 2-12 that season 2 years ago. How Shaq got Finals MVP 3 times, to 0 for Kobe. Use your darn heads. Kobe's one shot that wins games don't mean jack. That's why we don't talk about Robert Horry and Steve Kerr being Hall of Famers. Even if Pippen had been clutch, we still wouldn't give him large credit for MJ's rings. We still knew MJ got em there, just like Shaq's ENTIRE GAME dominance is what won titles, not Kobe's 1 shot at the end. Kobe fans are such wans. Geez.
                      Maybe you want to learn to read before ranting...and also learn what a 'constuctive' point is when criticising.

                      1. I'm hardly a Kobe fan.

                      2. I didn't say Shaq wasn't great. I merely said, he was fortunate to have an incredibly clutch 'go to guy' at the end of games. Guys like Pat Ewing never had that 'luxury'. Without that type of guy, Shaq gets 'exposed'.

                      Everyone knows Shaq got the team there. Much like the Sac Kings though, getting "there" means little unless you win the thing on the absolute big plays. Shaq has never had to be 'that' guy.

                      And yes, Shaq got Finals MVP against Eastern Conference teams with no bigs.

                      Getting out of the West those years LA won though, he was pretty much a 'non factor' in each of those epic series v Sac, Spurs etc down the stretch.

                      Comment

                      • Court_vision
                        Banned
                        • Oct 2002
                        • 8290

                        #41
                        Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

                        Originally posted by rbruns
                        You're talking about one shot to win a game. You act like that is what won the game. What WON the game was Shaq's 35 points and 15 rebounds, STUPID. Not one shot that put the team ahead at the end. It was Shaq's dominance for 47 minutes that did it. Take away Shaq's 35 and 15, and Kobe's getting his arse kicked by the other team. So should we say REggie Miller is a top 10 player of all time cuz he has tons of moments like Kobe? Idiots. Think about it. All Kobe's fans can come up with is one magical shot here and there. Notice they don't point out how Shaq had 35 pts and 15 rebounds per game in the finals, over a series. Or how Shaq carried LA for an entire season, which is proven by his MVP. Or how LA's winning % when Shaq was out was horrible. Like 2-12 that season 2 years ago. How Shaq got Finals MVP 3 times, to 0 for Kobe. Use your darn heads. Kobe's one shot that wins games don't mean jack. That's why we don't talk about Robert Horry and Steve Kerr being Hall of Famers. Even if Pippen had been clutch, we still wouldn't give him large credit for MJ's rings. We still knew MJ got em there, just like Shaq's ENTIRE GAME dominance is what won titles, not Kobe's 1 shot at the end. Kobe fans are such wans. Geez.
                        Maybe you want to learn to read before ranting...and also learn what a 'constuctive' point is when criticising.

                        1. I'm hardly a Kobe fan.

                        2. I didn't say Shaq wasn't great. I merely said, he was fortunate to have an incredibly clutch 'go to guy' at the end of games. Guys like Pat Ewing never had that 'luxury'. Without that type of guy, Shaq gets 'exposed'.

                        Everyone knows Shaq got the team there. Much like the Sac Kings though, getting "there" means little unless you win the thing on the absolute big plays. Shaq has never had to be 'that' guy.

                        And yes, Shaq got Finals MVP against Eastern Conference teams with no bigs.

                        Getting out of the West those years LA won though, he was pretty much a 'non factor' in each of those epic series v Sac, Spurs etc down the stretch.

                        Comment

                        • fobbybobby23
                          Pro
                          • Sep 2004
                          • 825

                          #42
                          Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

                          Originally posted by rbruns
                          Pippen was a 20 + scorer, shot 50 % from the field, unlike Kobe, who's shooting 39 % w/o the Diesel

                          i don't understand how people can bring this stat up, kobe hasn't even played 1 season without shaq yet, and he's on a completely new team that still has yet to find its ways, freaking wait a few seasons and if it still hovers around 39-40% then you can say its cause shaq isn't playing next to him, right now its too hard to tell, and its not like the other NBA teams were stupid when they played the lakers when they had shaq, they wouldn't have the guy guarding kobe rotate to help on shaq

                          the players still haven't found out how they can all contribute the best to the offense yet, even if it is 20 games into the season

                          saying kobe has odom, caron, etc. isn't better than pippen having paxson and grant, and bj armstrong

                          grant and armstrong were all-stars,and he had cartwright and kukoc, how is that roster worse than kobe's??! pippen got a lot more help, not to mention had a true, stable point guard running the game, and some big men that could bang down low, lakers have no one that can play like that down low

                          pippen's team didn't change much from the previous years, the lakers got a new coach, and like 9+ new players who still don't know how to play with each other

                          all these things you can't even compare yet, becuase its only 20 games into the season, don't be so certain in your comments until its like 3-4 seasons from now and the real patterns show themselves, you may be right, but then you may be not

                          Comment

                          • fobbybobby23
                            Pro
                            • Sep 2004
                            • 825

                            #43
                            Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

                            Originally posted by rbruns
                            Pippen was a 20 + scorer, shot 50 % from the field, unlike Kobe, who's shooting 39 % w/o the Diesel

                            i don't understand how people can bring this stat up, kobe hasn't even played 1 season without shaq yet, and he's on a completely new team that still has yet to find its ways, freaking wait a few seasons and if it still hovers around 39-40% then you can say its cause shaq isn't playing next to him, right now its too hard to tell, and its not like the other NBA teams were stupid when they played the lakers when they had shaq, they wouldn't have the guy guarding kobe rotate to help on shaq

                            the players still haven't found out how they can all contribute the best to the offense yet, even if it is 20 games into the season

                            saying kobe has odom, caron, etc. isn't better than pippen having paxson and grant, and bj armstrong

                            grant and armstrong were all-stars,and he had cartwright and kukoc, how is that roster worse than kobe's??! pippen got a lot more help, not to mention had a true, stable point guard running the game, and some big men that could bang down low, lakers have no one that can play like that down low

                            pippen's team didn't change much from the previous years, the lakers got a new coach, and like 9+ new players who still don't know how to play with each other

                            all these things you can't even compare yet, becuase its only 20 games into the season, don't be so certain in your comments until its like 3-4 seasons from now and the real patterns show themselves, you may be right, but then you may be not

                            Comment

                            • rbruns
                              Banned
                              • Oct 2002
                              • 777

                              #44
                              Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

                              I've seen enough from 20 games to confirm everyone's suspicions that isn't on Kobe's bandwagon. All the experts said Kobe was gonna struggle with making a high percentage of his shots, cuz Shaq ain't around to draw double and triple teams, and lo and behold, Kobe's proving us right. It ain't rocket science. When you got a guy like MJ or Shaq drawing the D towards them every play, guys like Pip and Kobe, very good but not great players, tend to benefit. Problem is, Kobe isn't as good as Pip. That's why Pip was still able to do his thing when he was young, and MJ retired the first time. what people don't realize is the 2nd time MJ retired, Pippen turned 33 or 34 and was already on his downside. The first time around, Pip was only 27 or 28, and still got his. Kobe on the other hand, has always struggled when Shaq was out. Look at LA's 2-12 start 2 years ago. Kobe was shooting blanks and couldn't shake the double teams. One more proof that Shaq made Kobe, look at what Shaq's doing for Wade. Wade is probably playing as good as Kobe ever did in Shaq's presence, he's not scoring 30, only 25, but shooting 51.5 %, dishing 7.5 assists, and 6 boards. He's much more effective, he's better, but not that much better than last year, it's Shaq's presence that's helping Wade. And Shaq is a has been compared to what he was at age 28, imagine the benefits Kobe reaped when Shaq was younger, and more dominant. Shaq made Kobe. Kobe is not a top 2 or 3 player like Shaq was. Shaq is in Timmy and KG's class, probably better than them when he was 28 yrs old, getting 30 pts per game, 13 boards and 3 blocks. Kobe will never be at Timmy or KG's class, and Shaq was a hair more dominant than them when he was 28. Shaq is often mentioned as the most dominant, awesome center ever. Kobe isn't even in Drexler's class yet as far as wings go, and the next step after Drexler is guys like Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Oscar Robertson, and Magic. Shaq is already mentioned in the same breath as Wilt, Russell, Kareem, and Olajuwuan. Kobe is two rungs below the great guards. That is why it is a FACT that Kobe didn't contribute near as much as Shaq did to those rings. He simply doesn't have the respect from his elders to even be considered better than a Drexler, who isn't near Elgin, Magic, Oscar, etc. Shaq made Kobe, and the fact he's mentioned on an even playing field as the top 10 or 15 greats proves it. Kobe isn't even considered top 50 for what he's shown. He may, but that's if he's lucky. Shaq is a lock for top 50, he made it at age 23, which was premature, but also shows the respect and talent he had. He already done did it. Kobe hasn't done much this year to show he can dominate the LEAGUE like Shaq did. Shaq was the most dominant player in the league, for about 5 years. Hands down. Tim Duncan even admits that. Kobe is merely one of a handful of good players, like Tracy McGrady, Paul Pierce, Jason Kidd, etc. But he hasn't even come close to sniffing the level of a Tim Duncan, Shaq, KG, MJ or Olajowuan. I'd say Kobe will go down as a David Robinson type player, not one of the previous players. and that's being generous.

                              Comment

                              • rbruns
                                Banned
                                • Oct 2002
                                • 777

                                #45
                                Re: Is Shaq to Kobe = to MJ to Pippen?

                                I've seen enough from 20 games to confirm everyone's suspicions that isn't on Kobe's bandwagon. All the experts said Kobe was gonna struggle with making a high percentage of his shots, cuz Shaq ain't around to draw double and triple teams, and lo and behold, Kobe's proving us right. It ain't rocket science. When you got a guy like MJ or Shaq drawing the D towards them every play, guys like Pip and Kobe, very good but not great players, tend to benefit. Problem is, Kobe isn't as good as Pip. That's why Pip was still able to do his thing when he was young, and MJ retired the first time. what people don't realize is the 2nd time MJ retired, Pippen turned 33 or 34 and was already on his downside. The first time around, Pip was only 27 or 28, and still got his. Kobe on the other hand, has always struggled when Shaq was out. Look at LA's 2-12 start 2 years ago. Kobe was shooting blanks and couldn't shake the double teams. One more proof that Shaq made Kobe, look at what Shaq's doing for Wade. Wade is probably playing as good as Kobe ever did in Shaq's presence, he's not scoring 30, only 25, but shooting 51.5 %, dishing 7.5 assists, and 6 boards. He's much more effective, he's better, but not that much better than last year, it's Shaq's presence that's helping Wade. And Shaq is a has been compared to what he was at age 28, imagine the benefits Kobe reaped when Shaq was younger, and more dominant. Shaq made Kobe. Kobe is not a top 2 or 3 player like Shaq was. Shaq is in Timmy and KG's class, probably better than them when he was 28 yrs old, getting 30 pts per game, 13 boards and 3 blocks. Kobe will never be at Timmy or KG's class, and Shaq was a hair more dominant than them when he was 28. Shaq is often mentioned as the most dominant, awesome center ever. Kobe isn't even in Drexler's class yet as far as wings go, and the next step after Drexler is guys like Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Oscar Robertson, and Magic. Shaq is already mentioned in the same breath as Wilt, Russell, Kareem, and Olajuwuan. Kobe is two rungs below the great guards. That is why it is a FACT that Kobe didn't contribute near as much as Shaq did to those rings. He simply doesn't have the respect from his elders to even be considered better than a Drexler, who isn't near Elgin, Magic, Oscar, etc. Shaq made Kobe, and the fact he's mentioned on an even playing field as the top 10 or 15 greats proves it. Kobe isn't even considered top 50 for what he's shown. He may, but that's if he's lucky. Shaq is a lock for top 50, he made it at age 23, which was premature, but also shows the respect and talent he had. He already done did it. Kobe hasn't done much this year to show he can dominate the LEAGUE like Shaq did. Shaq was the most dominant player in the league, for about 5 years. Hands down. Tim Duncan even admits that. Kobe is merely one of a handful of good players, like Tracy McGrady, Paul Pierce, Jason Kidd, etc. But he hasn't even come close to sniffing the level of a Tim Duncan, Shaq, KG, MJ or Olajowuan. I'd say Kobe will go down as a David Robinson type player, not one of the previous players. and that's being generous.

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