11/20 - 11/26 Games Discussion Thread

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 11/20 - 11/26 Games Discussion Thread

It’s weird seeing Vuc get a lot of National praise because he’s been a good Center(and a very underrated one)for quite some time.

Seeing him play like this doesn’t even surprise me anymore.

[23]

Re: 11/20 - 11/26 Games Discussion Thread

I actually thought he was referring to Otto when he mentioned the guy in Washington. Wall is definitely worth a max deal, his deal in particular is structured in a bad way but he's still a max level player. Might end up hurting Washington though.

I was talking about Otto

[23]

Re: 11/20 - 11/26 Games Discussion Thread

At least Wall’s made sense AT THE TIME. Now it looks silly because he hasn’t played anywhere near that level since then or even shown any signs of returning and changing/evolving as a player.

but at $40 million though I dont know. Either way, Gilbert Arenas always said players get paid for what they did not what theyre doing right now.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 11/20 - 11/26 Games Discussion Thread

It’s weird seeing Vuc get a lot of National praise because he’s been a good Center(and a very underrated one)for quite some time.

Seeing him play like this doesn’t even surprise me anymore.

Yeah Vuc has been almost underrated now for a good time, it's just he's not a strong defender and Orlando was never good so he didn't get the attention he should have. I always considered him with guys like Paul Millsap, Al Horford, Tobias Harris, etc as some of the better players that are rarely mentioned.

I was actually thinking about it some this off-season, there was a lot of talk about how good Jokic was going into this season, and comparatively speaking outside of Jokic's high passing skills I'm not sure that he's really better than Vucevic in any other category. But his passes make the highlight takes, and Denver has a solid team so we get the drastically different media and fan perception of the two of them.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: 11/20 - 11/26 Games Discussion Thread

Vuc has been a walking double-double for a while now...but he definitely has some holes in his game that has held him back a bit...almost Kanter-esque (not saying he isn't the better player) in that some of the guady numbers you'd see from him didn't quite reflect his impact on games. I know he drove Magic fans crazy at times.

From his stat line you couldn't tell, but he was in a pretty rough spot last year...I thought he'd get shipped out before Payton. For context-

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.orlandopinstripedpost.com/platform/amp/2018/3/23/17156218/what-in-the-world-is-going-on-with-nikola-vucevic

Cliff has given him a lot more responsibility though, and its paying off. He's assisting and at the line at a career high...and that hyper athletic team around him is masking some of his defensive deficiencies.

[ojandpizza]

11/20 - 11/26 Games Discussion Thread

Vuc has been a walking double-double for a while now...but he definitely has some holes in his game that has held him back a bit...almost Kanter-esque (not saying he isn't the better player) in that some of the guady numbers you'd see from him didn't quite reflect his impact on games. I know he drove Magic fans crazy at times.

From his stat line you couldn't tell, but he was in a pretty rough spot last year...I thought he'd get shipped out before Payton. For context-

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.orlandopinstripedpost.com/platform/amp/2018/3/23/17156218/what-in-the-world-is-going-on-with-nikola-vucevic

Cliff has given him a lot more responsibility though, and its paying off. He's assisting and at the line at a career high...and that hyper athletic team around him is masking some of his defensive deficiencies.

Kanter is absolutely another of those guys. Defensively weak but still a really high level less recognized player at the other end. I think we got a big viewing of that with how productive he was when he was running the pick and roll with Russ.

Compared to the other two, I don’t think he’s as good of a passer, especially compared to Jokic, and doesn’t quite have their shooting range. But he rolls the rim better than either of them, maybe anyone in the league, and finishes at a high level. He’s not athletic enough to be a Deandre or Capela type of “rim runner” but he always finds the opening, has great hands to handle the pass, and is an elite finisher.

Craziest Kanter stat that I’ve saw that still sticks out to me. His rate of the combination of scoring and offensive rebound is among the best of all time. Of all players since they have the stats to check (1973 forward) to score 20+ points per 75 possessions he ranks among the very best in terms of scoring and O rebounding. Sorted by offensive rebound percentage, he holds 4 of the top 25 seasons ever. The only other players on that list more than twice is Moses Malone and Charles Barkley. Kanter’s best year actually ranks 7th all time, his 2nd best ranks 8th, and the only seasons ahead of those are 4 years from Moses Malone, one from Barkley, one from Hakeem..

Crazy to think his combination of offensive rebounding and scoring is among some of the GOATS, and he pairs that with a decent midrange shot, and an elite finishing ability (career 66% near the rim) on top of that, yet he can’t hardly land a consistent role because of what’s required of today’s bigs defensively.

I still think in the right situation and on defensive minded team where his shortcomings weren’t such a liability, that he would be one of the best value players in the league.

Just a comparison of that previously mentioned stat, Kanters season that ranks 7th is 22.5 points per 75 with an offensive rebound percentage of 16.6%.. Moses year that ranks 5th (championship year with Philly) was 22.9 points per 75 with 16.8%.. near mirror images of one another. Kanter also shot 59% from the field in comparison to Moses’s 50%.. it’s crazy to imagine a scenario where Kanter could be a HOF player and/or a league where Moses might not be all that valuable due to his own defensive limitations regardless of his offense. That’s likely not the case obviously, it’s just a stat, but Kanter like Jokic/Vuc is still a very good player at his own strengths. Like mentioned before, his minutes with Russ gave us more than enough evidence of that.


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[ojandpizza]

11/20 - 11/26 Games Discussion Thread

Spoiler

Of course that can be taken with a grain of salt considering Kanter has never really played quite enough minutes to see if those are sustainable numbers for him, but considering he didn’t play much his first two years that is 4 of his other 5 seasons that rank out that highly. It seems less of a coincidence. And we do have the outlier thrown in there where he was traded to OKC and finished off that season starting and playing 31 minutes a night for them. His best stretch of games where he would average 19 and 11, so I would still say we have plenty to suggest that he could indeed handle the larger role/minutes and his production continue to climb with that. Plus I think just the eye test from him getting minutes along side Westbrook supports the argument as well.

For an arguments sake, that 19 and 11 in 31mpg would be roughly 62 possessions at OKC’s pace that year. Which would be up around 22-23 and 13 or so per 75, which is right around the mark an estimated per 75 would suggest he would be for all the other years as well.

Also crazy to think that those years mentioned before were sorted by the OR%, so even though Hakeem and Barkley each have a year ahead of him in terms of their O rebounding%, 3 of the 4 Kanter years in that top 25 group he actually had the better scoring rate than those two.

Also when I said the only players other than him to be in the top 25 multiple times were Moses and Barkley that was a mess up, Hakeem is also on the list one more time, and Shawn Kemp has three seasons as well. So twice from Hakeem, Barkley, 3 from Kemp, 4 times from Kanter, and 11 seasons from Moses. Others to make the top 25 are ZBo, Cousins, John Drew.. notable players narrowly missing the top 25 are a year from Dwight, most of Shaq’s Orlando seasons, Kevin Love’s big year in Minnesota.

I would have also suggested that he only reached those numbers because of Westbrook’s ability to work the pick and roll with him, and his style also allowing him plenty of offensive rebound chances... but one of those season was this past year playing for New York as well, so not solely reflected on his time with Westbrook.

Long story short, Enas Kanter might actually be the best combination of offensive rebounding and scoring/finishing that the league has. He also is an elite finisher around the rim, sets good screens, and spreads the floor with jumpers. And it’s never going to be utilized because he can’t defend anybody and stay on the floor.. kinda unfortunate for him. Kinda makes you wonder what some of those San Antonio teams that started guys like Splitter, Oberto, Elson, would have looked like with Kanter in replacement. Or if GS had him instead of Pachulia. Pretty much the only scenarios he might be able to reach potential under.

All that rambling aside, analytics are definitely not absolutes. So who knows lol. But the numbers side of things is always at least intriguing to me.

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[DieHardYankee26]

Re: 11/20 - 11/26 Games Discussion Thread

Kanter sucks. If basketball had a DH, he'd be great. As it is, his ineptitude on defense is so insane that it erases anything he does on offense 90% of the time. Good rebounder I guess.

[23]

Re: 11/20 - 11/26 Games Discussion Thread

Kanter sucks. If basketball had a DH, he'd be great. As it is, his ineptitude on defense is so insane that it erases anything he does on offense 90% of the time. Good rebounder I guess.

Jerome James 2.0

Yall prepared to give him a big contract too because he likes to yap?

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 11/20 - 11/26 Games Discussion Thread

Just when you thought that you’ve seen it all on Basketball Message Boards, this guy goes out and types up a 16 paragraph post(s) about Enes ****ing Kanter.

That is amazing.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: 11/20 - 11/26 Games Discussion Thread

Jerome James 2.0

Yall prepared to give him a big contract too because he likes to yap?

No way he's back after this year. They were basically daring him to opt out in the offseason.

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: 11/20 - 11/26 Games Discussion Thread

Just when you thought that you’ve seen it all on Basketball Message Boards, this guy goes out and types up a 16 paragraph post(s) about Enes ****ing Kanter.

That is amazing.

My man didn't even see it coming when he offendedly mentioned him lol.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 11/20 - 11/26 Games Discussion Thread

Kanter sucks. If basketball had a DH, he'd be great. As it is, his ineptitude on defense is so insane that it erases anything he does on offense 90% of the time. Good rebounder I guess.

There is too much switching and away from the basket defense for him to ever be what he could in today’s NBA. He would literally have to be surrounded by good defenders on the floor with him and somehow be able to “hide” him defensively. Only issue is it’s really difficult to hide your big man, teams would always just send whoever his is on to set high ball screens and exploit that mismatch.

Still think the right situation would give him high value. Even for last years Knicks he led your team in ORtg, PER, TS%, all rebounding percentages, all rebounding per 100, offensive win shares, defensive win shares, total win shares.. he’s very skilled in what he’s good at, and insanely consistent in those aspects as well.. but like you said, that defense causes issues across the board for everyone on the floor. Can’t really expect much out of him on an already bad team that’s for sure.


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[ojandpizza]

Re: 11/20 - 11/26 Games Discussion Thread

And honestly the only reason I had typed that much about Kanter is because the article that had mentioned that stat was fresh on my mind as the actual piece it was taken from was actually about Moses Malone and I had stumbled across it fairly recently.. and because I always felt that Kanter was one of the best per minute offense players in the league the instant that he was paired with Westbrook and had someone who was good enough at running the pick and roll to both attract the defense and make the pass to him. He definitely has holes in his game though, just like 24 was mentioning along with some of the same issues that keep Vuc from being as good as he could be as well.


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[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 11/20 - 11/26 Games Discussion Thread

Dawg, don’t nobody give this amount of ****s about Kanter. [emoji23]

I did laugh at “the best per minute offensive players in the league” part. Please don’t tell me it’s a real stat? Lol

(Rhetorical question, so no need to type a 5 page essay, sir)