The 2011 New York Knicks: The Rebirth

[CMH]

They dont have zero leverage. They have the player the Knicks covet and therefore hold all the cards.

The off-season is not holding Denver against a wall. Denver can still agree to a sign-and-trade with another franchise that doesn't have cap space. Melo can say he wants to play in NY but that sure seems to have died down a bit once LA and Chicago came knocking.

The Knicks can play the waiting game but there is no guarantee that Melo comes to NY. There's also the whole CBA and no one knowing what it's going to look like.

The Knicks have less leverage than Denver. They want someone someone else has. That automatically makes them the chaser.


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[CMH]

Re: The 2011 New York Knicks: The Rebirth

I really don't understand why Felton is the designated shooter at the end of a quarter. I can't remember the last time he hit a three-pointer at the buzzer. I think he might have hit one early in the season and it's as if because of that, he takes more.

That should be Gallo's shot. Or maybe Felton could actually try taking a two-pointer. There's a thought.

[bigeastbumrush]

Re: The 2011 New York Knicks: The Rebirth

They dont have zero leverage. They have the player the Knicks covet and therefore hold all the cards.

The off-season is not holding Denver against a wall. Denver can still agree to a sign-and-trade with another franchise that doesn't have cap space. Melo can say he wants to play in NY but that sure seems to have died down a bit once LA and Chicago came knocking.

The Knicks can play the waiting game but there is no guarantee that Melo comes to NY. There's also the whole CBA and no one knowing what it's going to look like.

The Knicks have less leverage than Denver. They want someone someone else has. That automatically makes them the chaser.

.

We'll just agree to disagree on the bolded...

[ehh]

Re: The 2011 New York Knicks: The Rebirth

They dont have zero leverage. They have the player the Knicks covet and therefore hold all the cards.

The off-season is not holding Denver against a wall. Denver can still agree to a sign-and-trade with another franchise that doesn't have cap space.

"Sources" have said all along that Denver's front office's main goal is to not get done the way CLE and TOR did - which pretty much rules out a sign and trade. If Denver tries to go that route Melo will walk and Denver will get the fugazi S&T situation that Cleveland and Toronto got after the fact. He'll be a free agent so no one will give up anything for him so cap space becomes moot. You lose Melo and get a trade exemption and a couple crappy picks, yippie! That makes Chandler/Gallo and Curry+1st Rd look pretty enticing by comparison.

Donnie knows what he's doing, this will come down to the 11th hour and we'll get Melo for less than the original proposed deal this week.

The Knicks have less leverage than Denver. They want someone someone else has. That automatically makes them the chaser.

It makes the Knicks the chaser but it doesn't mean they don't have leverage. The Nuggets are basically the homeowner that gets transferred for a new job and has to sell their home quickly and they try to sell a $1M home in a horrible market for $800k when the market value is $500k. They have something desirable but don't hold a heck of a lot of leverage.

[CMH]

Re: The 2011 New York Knicks: The Rebirth

My point is Denver has the right to ask for anything they want seeing as how they have the player.

They don't have to trade Carmelo. They can let him walk too. Is that ideal? No, of course not.

But the Knicks can sit and wait and say, we won't make that move and Denver can say: "Fine. Then good luck in free agency."

They are running the show, otherwise, why don't the Knicks just offer Curry's expiring contract and nothing else?

[ehh]

Re: The 2011 New York Knicks: The Rebirth

My point is Denver has the right to ask for anything they want seeing as how they have the player.

They don't have to trade Carmelo. They can let him walk too. Is that ideal? No, of course not.

But the Knicks can sit and wait and say, we won't make that move and Denver can say: "Fine. Then good luck in free agency."

They are running the show, otherwise, why don't the Knicks just offer Curry's expiring contract and nothing else?

The Knicks aren't running things either, it's not that black and white. And the Nuggets wouldn't take just Curry's contract because they'd just wind up with the same amount of cap space this off season. Might as well keep one of the best scorers in the league for the final two months of the season than trade for a guy who can't even get on the court.

[CMH]

Re: The 2011 New York Knicks: The Rebirth

The Knicks aren't running things either, it's not that black and white. And the Nuggets wouldn't take just Curry's contract because they'd just wind up with the same amount of cap space this off season. Might as well keep one of the best scorers in the league for the final two months of the season than trade for a guy who can't even get on the court.

This is exactly what I'm saying.

My question was rhetorical. I don't expect an answer because there really isn't one.

We can't think the Knicks shouldn't agree to the deal Denver is asking just because Denver needs to get rid of Carmelo. They don't have to.

And obviously we can't seriously think Denver will hold onto Carmelo because they will want some kind of value instead of losing him in Free agency.

We all know this. So I'm not trying to educate in any way. Now we are past that point.

Now what needs to be evaluated is the advantages and disadvantages to such a move. If the Knicks are not going to win with their current roster, does it matter what they do to their players?

If the Knicks can't attract more free agents with STAT and a bunch of other guys, does it matter who they trade away?

However, if you include Carmelo and STAT as a jump off to a roster, you will find that the rest of the pieces can fall in place much easier.

Carmelo and STAT along with whoever you don't want the Knicks to trade are not going to win a championship. It's not happening.

But Carmelo and STAT and another all-star suddenly make things interesting.

So, why is it harmful to trade away replaceable players to acquire Carmelo? There are other Landry Fields in the league. Other Gallos. Other Chandlers. There are not many Carmelos.

Anyway, I'm not arguing. We disagree and that's fine. I like talking with other passionate Knicks fans.

[ehh]

Re: The 2011 New York Knicks: The Rebirth

To me, I think the bottom line is that the Knicks can reach their goal in either situation - they can acquire Melo via trade or FA. It is a possibility despite all the risks.

The Nuggets on the other hand can only win in a trade. They get nothing via FA except the S&T nonsense I mentioned earlier. That's why I believe the Knicks ultimately hold greater leverage.

Denver's front office (lol @ the "amateur hour" quote) is so off the wall right now that they are either horrible at bluffing because their requests are so blatantly unrealistic or they are bat**** crazy and aren't going deal Melo out of emotion and spite. If a front office behaves that way then no one in that place deserves their job. Their goal is to do what's best for their franchise, not to try to stick it to their departing star.

[bigeastbumrush]

Re: The 2011 New York Knicks: The Rebirth

Now what needs to be evaluated is the advantages and disadvantages to such a move. If the Knicks are not going to win with their current roster, does it matter what they do to their players?

If the Knicks can't attract more free agents with STAT and a bunch of other guys, does it matter who they trade away?

However, if you include Carmelo and STAT as a jump off to a roster, you will find that the rest of the pieces can fall in place much easier.

Carmelo and STAT along with whoever you don't want the Knicks to trade are not going to win a championship. It's not happening.

But Carmelo and STAT and another all-star suddenly make things interesting.

So, why is it harmful to trade away replaceable players to acquire Carmelo? There are other Landry Fields in the league. Other Gallos. Other Chandlers. There are not many Carmelos.

Anyway, I'm not arguing. We disagree and that's fine. I like talking with other passionate Knicks fans.

Because we have a wise enough GM that knows that STAT & Carmelo would probably get the Knicks to the first round and that's where the train stops.

There's a huge assumption that the Knicks can sign Stat, Melo and another All-Star. That ain't happening with the looming CBA.

I'm sorry but guys who play defense are not easy to find in this league.

Everyone saw what Miami did and thinks everyone can just go out and do the same things.

Stat and Melo on the same team immediately turns you into one of the worst defensive 5 starting lineups in the league.

If you don't have some dogs who want to play Defense to mask their liabilities, you might as well forfeit any hopes of consistent success.

Giving up 3 wings (or 2 wings and a Center- Chandler, Gallo/Fields and Moz), or 2 wings & a PG who play defense and rebound for a pure scorer is ridiculous.

Have you not seen Amare get ate up by Bynum, Gasol, Horford, etc over the past few weeks?

You think you just go out and find a Joel Anthony and that solves your problems?

A D'Antoni offense can score with anyone in the league but Defense gets you playoff wins.

Gut a roster and think Stat, Melo and a bunch of shoe-ins can have any success in a new CBA is pretty delusional IMO.

The Knicks aren't struggling right now because of scoring. They can't stop anybody when it counts.

[CMH]

I don't think those guys they have right now play defense either. I'm still not seeing the argument. Those guys are replaceable. It's like you're saying the Knicks would lose their defensive back bones.

Sure Carmelo isn't a defender either but how's that different from now? They'll go from a bad defensive team to a bad defensive team.


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[Vast]

Re: The 2011 New York Knicks: The Rebirth

To me, I think the bottom line is that the Knicks can reach their goal in either situation - they can acquire Melo via trade or FA. It is a possibility despite all the risks.

The Nuggets on the other hand can only win in a trade. They get nothing via FA except the S&T nonsense I mentioned earlier. That's why I believe the Knicks ultimately hold greater leverage.

Denver's front office (lol @ the "amateur hour" quote) is so off the wall right now that they are either horrible at bluffing because their requests are so blatantly unrealistic or they are bat**** crazy and aren't going deal Melo out of emotion and spite. If a front office behaves that way then no one in that place deserves their job. Their goal is to do what's best for their franchise, not to try to stick it to their departing star.

Great post bro. I don't agree with the mindset of we're not gonna win a championship so lets get rid of everybody for a star player.

We've been terrible for how many years? Things are starting to finally look up. We finally have a good point guard. We finally have a star player. We have some decent young talent, but we have no depth or bench and the jury is still out on the coach.

If we had Kendrick Perkins on our team right now, we'd be competing with Chicagos spot in the playoff race(imo); and this is while looking much worse on paper than they do.

Don't blow the team up, dont' give up a good point guard.

We have a much much much much much better chance of landing Carmelo as a FA, than we do of getting CP3/D-Will.

CP3/D-Will coming to NY is as much of a pipe dream as Lebron in a Knicks uniform. Especially since we're talking about 2-3 years down the road.

[bigeastbumrush]

Re: The 2011 New York Knicks: The Rebirth

I don't think those guys they have right now play defense either. I'm still not seeing the argument. Those guys are replaceable. It's like you're saying the Knicks would lose their defensive back bones.

Sure Carmelo isn't a defender either but how's that different from now? They'll go from a bad defensive team to a bad defensive team.


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No, you go from a bad defensive team to one of the worst in the league because you gave up rebounding (Fields) and size (Moz) for scoring.

On a team that can already SCORE, that doesn't make sense. It doesn't make business sense or basketball sense.

Is Landry Fields replaceable? Sure he is.
Chandler? Sure.

But why give them away when you don't have to? And to lose what they bring to the table to gain something that you already have?

[sabinaDana]

Re: The 2011 New York Knicks: The Rebirth

I just wanted to give my opinion on the Melo situation. Any comments on my opinion? What is your opinion on what Knicks should do?
www/worldflightforhearing/com/

[CMH]

No, you go from a bad defensive team to one of the worst in the league because you gave up rebounding (Fields) and size (Moz) for scoring.

On a team that can already SCORE, that doesn't make sense. It doesn't make business sense or basketball sense.

Is Landry Fields replaceable? Sure he is.
Chandler? Sure.

But why give them away when you don't have to? And to lose what they bring to the table to gain something that you already have?

I didn't realize Mozgov was the other starter. Has that been confirmed?

Either way it's not that I disagree they would be giving up too many players. I agree with the end result and the issue.

What we do disagree in is the effect. It makes sense for Walsh to wait and even more sense now that teams are confirming they are not interested.

I personally just don't see the difference in the roster which is why I prefer the Knicks don't even make the trade.


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[Jeffx]

Re: The 2011 New York Knicks: The Rebirth

Report: Knicks’ Dolan, Nets’ Prokhorov To Meet Carmelo

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/02/18/report-knicks-dolan-nets-prokhorov-to-meet-with-carmelo-anthony/