Countdown To Pavlik-Hopkins Oct 11th

[Complex]

Re: Countdown To Pavlik-Hopkins Oct 11th

I'm not sure. I have seen way too many great/very good fighters never be the same after a fight like that. It would have been better for him to get ko'd or barely lose...because the way he lost, it really wasn't adjustment related. He got destroyed in a styles make fight gig. His only consolation is he can trick himself into thinking he only lost because of the weight.

Regardless, it will be very interesting to watch how he mentally rebounds from such an owning.

But seriously, and he won't, the first thing he should do is replace Loew. He has reached his peak with him and his corner work was horrible...

I agree somewhat on the Training. He got some ok advice but maybe a new guy needs to get in there to help him get better. He was told to double his jab and he did not, and when in close he did nothing much at all.

Pavlik needs to develop head movment - if you are going to come forward like that, then he needs to move his head some. Duck some, side step etc. Something other than come forward. Also, he needs to work on his stamina. He hadnt been taken late in fights b4 and it showed. He was tired down the stretch.

[JayBee74]

Re: Countdown To Pavlik-Hopkins Oct 11th

Also, he needs to work on his stamina. He hadnt been taken late in fights b4 and it showed. He was tired down the stretch.

It may have looked like he was tired, but that was just befuddlement. Pavlik said after the fight he was not one bit tired the entire fight.
Pavlik will not part with Loew-he needs to alter his conditioning program to increase his speed-much of his power is natural anyway.

[fistofrage]

Re: Countdown To Pavlik-Hopkins Oct 11th

It may have looked like he was tired, but that was just befuddlement. Pavlik said after the fight he was not one bit tired the entire fight.
Pavlik will not part with Loew-he needs to alter his conditioning program to increase his speed-much of his power is natural anyway.

All of his power is natural. The guy fights at 170 and looks the same as he did at 160 or 150 for that matter. Who knows where that weight was, probably in the form of a big steak dinner sitting in his belly.

He's done. He was slipping after the 1st Taylor fight. That was one of those fights where you age 10 years. I don't think he's got it left in him. Its one thing to be befuddled, but a totally other thing not to be punching. His power is actually the accumulation of damage. He's not a great 1 punch KO guy. Throwing 30 punches per round won't get him where he needs to be.
I'd be suprided if his name in mentioned in boxing circles in 2 or 3 years.

[Complex]

Re: Countdown To Pavlik-Hopkins Oct 11th

All of his power is natural. The guy fights at 170 and looks the same as he did at 160 or 150 for that matter. Who knows where that weight was, probably in the form of a big steak dinner sitting in his belly.

He's done. He was slipping after the 1st Taylor fight. That was one of those fights where you age 10 years. I don't think he's got it left in him. Its one thing to be befuddled, but a totally other thing not to be punching. His power is actually the accumulation of damage. He's not a great 1 punch KO guy. Throwing 30 punches per round won't get him where he needs to be.
I'd be suprided if his name in mentioned in boxing circles in 2 or 3 years.

His next fight will tell the tale. If its a no-name bum, mandatory he needs to jump on him and make a statement. If its a named opponent, he needs a dramatic win as well. If not, we might be mentioning him with Jeff Lacy, and that aint good.

[Complex]

Re: Countdown To Pavlik-Hopkins Oct 11th

It may have looked like he was tired, but that was just befuddlement. Pavlik said after the fight he was not one bit tired the entire fight.
Pavlik will not part with Loew-he needs to alter his conditioning program to increase his speed-much of his power is natural anyway.

Might be both, but against a 40+ yrd old man he looked slow, weak and tired.

[JayBee74]

Re: Countdown To Pavlik-Hopkins Oct 11th

All of his power is natural. The guy fights at 170 and looks the same as he did at 160 or 150 for that matter. Who knows where that weight was, probably in the form of a big steak dinner sitting in his belly.

He's done. He was slipping after the 1st Taylor fight. That was one of those fights where you age 10 years. I don't think he's got it left in him. Its one thing to be befuddled, but a totally other thing not to be punching. His power is actually the accumulation of damage. He's not a great 1 punch KO guy. Throwing 30 punches per round won't get him where he needs to be.
I'd be suprided if his name in mentioned in boxing circles in 2 or 3 years.

All due respect no way. The first Taylor bout was not a Frazier-Ali punishment-fest where the punch absorption took that much away from Pavlik. That being said Complex's take on his next fight is correct (IMHO), but mostly from a mental standpoint. Pavlik reminds me a lot of Carlos Monzon and the only "inter-weight" fight he had was against a welterweight (champion Jose Napoles) whom he destroyed.

[fistofrage]

Re: Countdown To Pavlik-Hopkins Oct 11th

All due respect no way. The first Taylor bout was not a Frazier-Ali punishment-fest where the punch absorption took that much away from Pavlik. That being said Complex's take on his next fight is correct (IMHO), but mostly from a mental standpoint. Pavlik reminds me a lot of Carlos Monzon and the only "inter-weight" fight he had was against a welterweight (champion Jose Napoles) whom he destroyed.

I don't know, neither fighter has been the same since IMO. No telling on how much damage each of them took, they were both out on their feet at one point. But yeah, the damage can also be mental, etc. I have no Idea how dug down that deep to finish off Taylor. He showed no resilience at all on Saturday. He was sitting on his bench knowing he was beat after the second round. The Kelly Pavlik that fought Taylor would have let the leather fly before determining that he was finished. He basically quit and I am sure if his corner would have wanted to toss in the towel at any point, he would have agreed.

[allBthere]

Re: Countdown To Pavlik-Hopkins Oct 11th

His next fight will tell the tale. If its a no-name bum, mandatory he needs to jump on him and make a statement. If its a named opponent, he needs a dramatic win as well. If not, we might be mentioning him with Jeff Lacy, and that aint good.

well the guy that won in the undercard would be a mandatory title defense if he chooses to defend it.

I'm not in agreement about Pavlik being done. He was just demoralized from the first few rounds and convinced himself that there was nothing he could do.

I feel like he needs to work on lateral movement, maybe widening his stance when stalking a guy that's jumping side to side, or try letting the opponent come to him a bit - during the fight he was getting his arse kicked, but walking into it all the time - it's not like he was being forced to stalk the whole fight.

Anyway that fight was shocking and after having it sink in, I think Pavlik will have to decide for himself how badly he wants a great legacy, and how badly he wants to fight the best out there. He could fight abraham, calzaghe, kessler, maybe miranda again and more, or he could take the next fight to realize he doesn't want it anymore.

I don't think he's incapable of returning in a blaze of fury, it's more like he just may not want to - we'll see though as soon as we see his next fight.

[JayBee74]

Re: Countdown To Pavlik-Hopkins Oct 11th

He could fight abraham, calzaghe, kessler, maybe miranda again and more, or he could take the next fight to realize he doesn't want it anymore.

You can take Miranda, Calzage, and Kessler off the table. I think Kelly stays at 160 for a long time and a rematch with Miranda is not feasible.Abraham is the logical choice and and welter kings Williams, Margarito, and Berto would guarantee a good payday if they decide to move up.

[fistofrage]

Re: Countdown To Pavlik-Hopkins Oct 11th

You can take Miranda, Calzage, and Kessler off the table. I think Kelly stays at 160 for a long time and a rematch with Miranda is not feasible.Abraham is the logical choice and and welter kings Williams, Margarito, and Berto would guarantee a good payday if they decide to move up.

I'd like to see him fight Berto or Margarito.

[JayBee74]

Re: Countdown To Pavlik-Hopkins Oct 11th

Not crazy about Calzage's comments about Pavlik.
JOE SAYS

[thelwig14]

Re: Countdown To Pavlik-Hopkins Oct 11th

JC is right, unfortunately.

And the good news for Pavlik now is he has excuses, which every fighter needs to be able comeback. He had an inflamed elbow and bronchitis. That is enough to flip the mental trigger if he chooses to...

[D16NJD16]

Re: Countdown To Pavlik-Hopkins Oct 11th

By Mike Vetter
theringmagazine




It was supposed to be youth versus experience, offense versus defense and in the end, Kelly Pavlik’s further development as one of the rising young stars of the sport.

The team of Pavlik perhaps underestimated the veteran by moving up by ten-pounds to meet Hopkins at his catch-weight of 170-pounds. Hopkins weighed 180 by the time he stepped in the ring. Therefore Pavlik's WBC/WBO middleweight titles were not on the line.
Pavlik promised to not allow Hopkins to slow the fight down to an simple crawl. Hopkins promised a more spirited performance than has been the case in recent fights. Both lived up to their word in the early going, though with little in the way of successful offensive results.

Hopkins opened up early, working his jab but often falling short with his follow up right. Pavlik fought behind a high tight guard, sticking his jab in Hopkins face and landing right hands, but nothing to force his future Hall of Fame opponent to take notice.

Trainer Jack Loew demanded that Pavlik double up on his jab if he was to have any offensive success, but student failed to oblige teacher in round two. Hopkins was beating Pavlik to the punch, throwing right hands to the body behind an effective jab of his own.
Like many who have stepped in the ring with Hopkins, Pavlik struggled to find his rhythm, and also struggled to stay on his feet late in the round after getting clipped with a Hopkins uppercut. A quick exchange of rabbit punches drew dual warnings from referee Benji Esteves.


The double jab still wasn’t existent in Pavlik’s repertoire, though he jumped out a quicker start in the third round, landing a left hook seconds in. An attempted follow up resulted in the first of several clinches to mar the first half of the round.


As has been the case in oh so many Hopkins fights of past, the tactic was effective in nullifying Pavlik’s attack, allowing the old veteran to regain control midway through the round, landing left hooks upstairs and giving Pavlik little opportunity to return the favor.

Things slowed to a crawl in the fourth round, though not by design. As was the case for most of the fight, Pavlik failed to cut off the ring, allowing Hopkins to roam as he pleased and forcing his younger foe to follow him around. With the round in the balance, Hopkins eased his way down the stretch, flurrying to the body while Pavlik landed nothing of note.

The best two-way action of the fight took place in the fifth. Pavlik finally let his hands go, though took plenty of return fire for his troubles. Pavlik who has a solid chin however, seemed comfortable. A right hand midway through the round gave Pavlik hope that his power punches would eventually cause damage, though Hopkins was still outworking the Youngstown native. It was more of the same in the sixth, though a round in which Pavlik outlanded Hopkins according to Compubox numbers.


The theme was the same in between every round – Loew imploring Pavlik to double up on his jab, then through the right. Pavlik still elected to ignore it as the second half of the bout was underway, though his late surge in the sixth motivated him to throw his hands more.
Hopkins spent much of the seventh round going in reverse, fighting a strictly defensive battle through the first two minutes before waking up down the stretch. The crowd came alive as Hopkins landed a left hook then wound up and landed a wild right hand. Once in close, Hopkins made sure all could see his hands were moving.

"It was as if the crowd said, okay, if your not going to push the fight, then we will cheer the guy who is" said Lampley afterward.

A telling conversation took place in between rounds seven and eight. Loew gave his usual speech and also demanded that Pavlik give more. Pavlik's trainer was certain all they needed was more aggression. The fighter could only offer a response of: “I’m trying, Jack.”
To his credit, he tried harder in the eighth, with his jab finally finding its way to Hopkins’ grill. Things went from bad to worse for Pavlik, as he was tripped up by the swirling and wrapping around of Bernard Hopkins, and tagged him on the back of the head.

Pavlik began the ninth with a double jab and a long right hand, as if to suggest he was finally ready to test drive his trainer’s advice. A moment of reprieve came for Pavlik late in the round, when Hopkins as usual was docked a point for excessive holding just before the bell. The infraction coming as Hopkins locked up Pavlik’s left arm and threw a left hand, headbutt combination.

The legions of fans that made the long trek from Youngstown briefly came alive after Pavlik connected with a flush right hand midway through the tenth, but it would end as a singular moment. Very little of note occurred in either direction, as well as in the 11th round, the first time in the fight where boo birds began to surface.

The bout ended with Hopkins and Pavlik throwing punches, and then nearly shoving referee Benji Esteves aside in efforts to go after it some more after the bell. It was too late in Kelly Pavlik's case however. The two camps jawed at one another until order was finally restored, at which point Hopkins stared down the media section, many of whom predicted this to be the final act in his career, and not in a good way.

Perhaps Larry Merchant summed it up best when he said that Bernard Hopkins brought his best Bernard Hopkins fight tonight, and Kelly Pavlik brought his worst Kelly Pavlik fight.

In typical fashion during Hopkins fights, scorecards varied in every direction possible. AP Press row had Pavlik winning a split decision. Fan polls, which are really just a popularity vote, had Pavlik winning unanimously. We had the fight at a draw.

To put it blunt, we were wrong. We were all very, very wrong. Scores of 118-108 and 117-109 in favor of Hopkins were an emphatic reminder of just how wrong we were. Pavlik was not able to outpoint Hopkins the way his counterpart from Wales, Joe Calzaghe was months ago.

Until the two finally face each other in the middleweight dream fight, we cannot know who is the better fighter, but what we did find out Saturday is that Calzaghe was able to adapt to the cagey Hopkins style better then Pavlik.

“90% of the media, according to (Golden Boy CEO) Richard Schaefer said that I’d lose the fight, with many believing that I’d get knocked out. It’s the naysayers – I need them. If I don’t have them, I won’t fight to my “best ability. I need to have people against me. " said Hopkins

Both Lampley and Merchant saw it as poor decision making on the part of Pavlik's team, and his promoters, for putting him in the ring with Hopkins, who dirties up all he faces, instead of some contender at the middleweight level.
"I think they got greedy. He's 26-years-old. There is no reason for them to fight Hopkins because even if you beat him - you are not going to look good," Merchant said. "I thought all along, at 26-years-old, there is no reason for him to pick this fight because there was more money than fighting some contender. They went for the money."
"100-percent" was the reply from Lampley, showing his full agreement with Merchant's comments.
At around the eleventh round, Lampley would boldly state "it's a fight Kelly Pavlik didn't have to take. There is a $3 million dollar guarantee for both fighters, plus a bonus from pay-per-view. Cold comfort for Pavlik, the money that comes from this."

Most who spoke about the fight, weren't thrilled to see Pavlik get matched with Hopkins. Too much risk, and too much to lose, with Pavlik moving up by ten-pounds to fight a style fighter like Hopkins. Many didn’t see a huge upside if Pavlik won, and more saw a big downside if he lost. The only upside was the money.

However I don't think that any individual at HBO has the right to criticize Team Pavlik's choice of fighting Hopkins, instead of some Middleweight contender. It was in the fan's best interest.


Hopkins already started picking his next fight.


“I will fight Roy (Jones); I will go to England to fight (Joe Calzaghe), especially if the dollar is higher. But wouldn’t the people here love to see me beat Roy Jones?!” Hopkins would ask the capacity crowd on hand.

Much of the pre-fight talk had Pavlik walking through Hopkins and being next in line for the winner of next month’s battle between Calzaghe and Jones. The preceding twelve rounds dramatically changes that dynamic.

“It’s back to the drawing board,” admitted Pavlik, who falls to 34-1 (30KO) in suffering the first defeat of his professional career. Despite boasting a considerable advantage in youth and power, neither was even a slight factor in this contest.

“He sure didn’t fight like he was old. With his movement and everything, I just couldn’t get off.” said Pavlik.

It is to Pavlik's credit he did not attribute his lack of focus on the fact that early Sunday morning reports had come out of Cleveland Ohio that young Dante Delsignore, the teen with bone cancer who's relationship with Pavlik has been documented by HBO various times, slipped into intensive care Saturday afternoon. As of print, his health status remains grim.

And so, shellshocked and with his Middleweight belt still in tact, he plans to return to a familiar place – middleweight, where he still reigns as champion, with this bout having taken place at 170 lb.


“We’re definitely going back to 160, we have the titles there. It’s only one loss; a lot of great fighters have (more) losses.”

Bernard Hopkins has many of them. Saturday night, he added to the growing belief that the public is willing to ignore that fact if you can accomplish a great feat, such as outpointing the an athlete of Pavlik's caliber.

[fistofrage]

Re: Countdown To Pavlik-Hopkins Oct 11th

JC is right, unfortunately.

And the good news for Pavlik now is he has excuses, which every fighter needs to be able comeback. He had an inflamed elbow and bronchitis. That is enough to flip the mental trigger if he chooses to...

I couldn't imagine fighting with bronchitis. I always wondered about this. You have no idea what might be ailing the boxer the day of the fight. They could be coming down with something, have something, whatever. Imagine having a cold where you couldn't breath out of your nose very well. It would be tough. Hopefully for Pavlik's sake this is why he looked beat after the second round. It wasn't the Pavlik we expected to see.

[thelwig14]

Re: Countdown To Pavlik-Hopkins Oct 11th

I couldn't imagine fighting with bronchitis. I always wondered about this. You have no idea what might be ailing the boxer the day of the fight. They could be coming down with something, have something, whatever. Imagine having a cold where you couldn't breath out of your nose very well. It would be tough. Hopefully for Pavlik's sake this is why he looked beat after the second round. It wasn't the Pavlik we expected to see.

He started the drugs that Wednesday.

For Pavlik's sake, this is what he needs to overcome the mental block.

If you have never lost, then you never fought anybody. And Ali, Lennox, SRL, etc...all were able to find "excuses" to mentally trick themselves that there was a reason they lost. Kessler, Pavlik, Jermain Taylor, Cotto, etc... are all great fighters (no matter what any douche says) and it will be interesting to see how all of them comeback from defeats. It is exciting to see who has the mental toughness to bounce back.