Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

[pietasterp]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

^I dunno, what makes the best athletes? I mean i've seen football players do horrible in boxing. I get what you mean tho. But nowadays i'd say because we know waaay more about effective training methods and ways to take care of the body, it's possible that some of todays boxers are much more conditioned and athletic than those of the past.

Just because someone is "athletic" doesn't mean they can just take up any sport at any age and excel at it. Some sports - for whatever reason - require an early investment in order to be world-class. Gymnastics, figure skating, golf, boxing - just off the top of my head, those are sports where (in general) if someone doesn't start at a really young age, no matter how athletic they are they'll never be that great. I have on idea why, it just seems to be the case.

I'm not sure today's fighters are more "fit" in general due to modern training methods (Chris Arreola would seem to dispute that argument...) but it's probably true that the top guys committed to fitness may be more fit than the old school days. But boxing is still, for large segments of it anyway, remarkably old-school in its thinking, training, etc. I'm not sure the fruits of exercise science and physiology have really penetrated into the ranks of the old piss-and-vinegar trainers yet...

Frazier isn't in my top 10 let alone top 5.

His claim to fame is one victory over Ali and he lost to other names in his era....

He didn't fight Ken Norton, Ernie Shavers, Ronnie Lyle etc.

I respectfully disagree. Joe Frazier was inarguably one of the top 3 heavyweights in perhaps the greatest heavyweight generation ever. He lost only 4 times, and only to 2 fighters. One of his losses - the 2nd Ali fight - was controversial, and the 3rd fight basically boiled down to Eddie Futch caring about his man more than Angelo Dundee/Pacheco cared about theirs (heavy editorializing on my part there)...You could argue he was never decisively beaten by Ali. He was frequently at a significant size/weight disadvantage throughout his career (probably was a natural light heavy/cruiser) and depending on who you believe, fought with one functional eye for the majority of his career.

It's always tricky business saying this guy or that guy does or doesn't belong on the top-whatever list, but for my money, Smokin' Joe was one of the greatest warriors ever to step into the ring and deserves mention in any list of the best fighters of all time.

...sorry, what thread was this again? Oh, yeah, just to bring this back on-topic: news reports say everyone made a ton of money on this fight. Hooray for the 10 people that benefit from this!

[JayBee74]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

........and the 3rd fight basically boiled down to Eddie Futch caring about his man more than Angelo Dundee/Pacheco cared about theirs (heavy editorializing on my part there)...You could argue he was never decisively beaten by Ali.

In the third fight in Manila Joe was taking unbelievable punishment in the 13th and 14th rounds. A LOT of right hand leads. It should have been stopped by the ref.

You could argue he was never decisively beaten by Ali.

Yeah, but he never fought Ali in his prime. This was Ali 2.0.

[pietasterp]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

Yeah, but he never fought Ali in his prime. This was Ali 2.0.

Not exactly Joe's fault...

[JayBee74]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

Not exactly Joe's fault...

No, but if you're using Ali as a benchmark for Joe's all time standing it should be noted he wasn't fighting the best version.

[SPRINGS03]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

Just because someone is "athletic" doesn't mean they can just take up any sport at any age and excel at it. Some sports - for whatever reason - require an early investment in order to be world-class. Gymnastics, figure skating, golf, boxing - just off the top of my head, those are sports where (in general) if someone doesn't start at a really young age, no matter how athletic they are they'll never be that great. I have on idea why, it just seems to be the case.

I'm not sure today's fighters are more "fit" in general due to modern training methods (Chris Arreola would seem to dispute that argument...) but it's probably true that the top guys committed to fitness may be more fit than the old school days. But boxing is still, for large segments of it anyway, remarkably old-school in its thinking, training, etc. I'm not sure the fruits of exercise science and physiology have really penetrated into the ranks of the old piss-and-vinegar trainers yet...

Oh i know that, i didn't mean that anyone who's athletic can just do any sport or whatver, i just meant that some of the actual boxers of today are more athletic and conditioned than the old school guys because of more effective training. I'd agree that the earlier on you pick up boxing the better, you get rare exceptions every now and then(like sergio martinez)

And yeah, i mean the guys who actually commit to fitness and use the newer training methods, guys like chavez jr and arreola are another story. That's actually an interesting subject, whether the new more effective ways of exercise/fitness have become more effective than some of old school trainers and boxing methods. I would think that the top tier boxers of today who are known for putting in the work and having solid trainers coaches might have the upper hand.

[allBthere]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

Oh i know that, i didn't mean that anyone who's athletic can just do any sport or whatver, i just meant that some of the actual boxers of today are more athletic and conditioned than the old school guys because of more effective training. I'd agree that the earlier on you pick up boxing the better, you get rare exceptions every now and then(like sergio martinez)

And yeah, i mean the guys who actually commit to fitness and use the newer training methods, guys like chavez jr and arreola are another story. That's actually an interesting subject, whether the new more effective ways of exercise/fitness have become more effective than some of old school trainers and boxing methods. I would think that the top tier boxers of today who are known for putting in the work and having solid trainers coaches might have the upper hand.

I agree with a lot of what your are saying, but I've always thought the old-time guys did a lot of things that were beneficial and people may scoff at now, but new-school do some dome things too.

For example - mayweather chopped wood for this fight like old-school, and you see people hammering tires with big mallets which is throw back, but those things are great.

Jack Dempsey and Marvin Hagler worked full-time - hagler right up until he got a title fight - those things make you tough. Dempsey lifting bails of hay all day. Sugar Ray Robinson took Honey every day and drank bull's blood the week of the fight.

One thing I think is stupid about the new school is those training masks...

[2_headedmonster]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

Just because someone is "athletic" doesn't mean they can just take up any sport at any age and excel at it. Some sports - for whatever reason - require an early investment in order to be world-class. Gymnastics, figure skating, golf, boxing - just off the top of my head, those are sports where (in general) if someone doesn't start at a really young age, no matter how athletic they are they'll never be that great. I have on idea why, it just seems to be the case.

I'm not sure today's fighters are more "fit" in general due to modern training methods (Chris Arreola would seem to dispute that argument...) but it's probably true that the top guys committed to fitness may be more fit than the old school days. But boxing is still, for large segments of it anyway, remarkably old-school in its thinking, training, etc. I'm not sure the fruits of exercise science and physiology have really penetrated into the ranks of the old piss-and-vinegar trainers yet...





I respectfully disagree. Joe Frazier was inarguably one of the top 3 heavyweights in perhaps the greatest heavyweight generation ever. He lost only 4 times, and only to 2 fighters. One of his losses - the 2nd Ali fight - was controversial, and the 3rd fight basically boiled down to Eddie Futch caring about his man more than Angelo Dundee/Pacheco cared about theirs (heavy editorializing on my part there)...You could argue he was never decisively beaten by Ali. He was frequently at a significant size/weight disadvantage throughout his career (probably was a natural light heavy/cruiser) and depending on who you believe, fought with one functional eye for the majority of his career.

It's always tricky business saying this guy or that guy does or doesn't belong on the top-whatever list, but for my money, Smokin' Joe was one of the greatest warriors ever to step into the ring and deserves mention in any list of the best fighters of all time.

...sorry, what thread was this again? Oh, yeah, just to bring this back on-topic: news reports say everyone made a ton of money on this fight. Hooray for the 10 people that benefit from this!

Cut it however you´d like. With the exception of Ali, when he stepped up his competition, he lost. Still a hell of a fighter tho.

[lhslancers]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

Just because someone is "athletic" doesn't mean they can just take up any sport at any age and excel at it. Some sports - for whatever reason - require an early investment in order to be world-class. Gymnastics, figure skating, golf, boxing - just off the top of my head, those are sports where (in general) if someone doesn't start at a really young age, no matter how athletic they are they'll never be that great. I have on idea why, it just seems to be the case.

I'm not sure today's fighters are more "fit" in general due to modern training methods (Chris Arreola would seem to dispute that argument...) but it's probably true that the top guys committed to fitness may be more fit than the old school days. But boxing is still, for large segments of it anyway, remarkably old-school in its thinking, training, etc. I'm not sure the fruits of exercise science and physiology have really penetrated into the ranks of the old piss-and-vinegar trainers yet...





I respectfully disagree. Joe Frazier was inarguably one of the top 3 heavyweights in perhaps the greatest heavyweight generation ever. He lost only 4 times, and only to 2 fighters. One of his losses - the 2nd Ali fight - was controversial, and the 3rd fight basically boiled down to Eddie Futch caring about his man more than Angelo Dundee/Pacheco cared about theirs (heavy editorializing on my part there)...You could argue he was never decisively beaten by Ali. He was frequently at a significant size/weight disadvantage throughout his career (probably was a natural light heavy/cruiser) and depending on who you believe, fought with one functional eye for the majority of his career.

It's always tricky business saying this guy or that guy does or doesn't belong on the top-whatever list, but for my money, Smokin' Joe was one of the greatest warriors ever to step into the ring and deserves mention in any list of the best fighters of all time.

...sorry, what thread was this again? Oh, yeah, just to bring this back on-topic: news reports say everyone made a ton of money on this fight. Hooray for the 10 people that benefit from this!

Boxing figure skating and gymnastics are a world unto themselves. You don't start early you can forget it. Golf is a different story. Calvin Peete and Larry Nelson didn't take the game up until they were in their 20's.

[pietasterp]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

Boxing figure skating and gymnastics are a world unto themselves. You don't start early you can forget it. Golf is a different story. Calvin Peete and Larry Nelson didn't take the game up until they were in their 20's.

True, but they're the exception rather than the rule. Sergio Martinez didn't start boxing until very late as well, and he was fantastic. But again, that's a distinct exception.

[KG]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

I agree with a lot of what your are saying, but I've always thought the old-time guys did a lot of things that were beneficial and people may scoff at now, but new-school do some dome things too.

For example - mayweather chopped wood for this fight like old-school, and you see people hammering tires with big mallets which is throw back, but those things are great.

Jack Dempsey and Marvin Hagler worked full-time - hagler right up until he got a title fight - those things make you tough. Dempsey lifting bails of hay all day. Sugar Ray Robinson took Honey every day and drank bull's blood the week of the fight.

One thing I think is stupid about the new school is those training masks...

I would say new-school fighters (those at the top of their classes sans Heavyweights) stay in better shape year-round and are in-general in better shape, mostly due to nutrition. Those masks help mimic training in high-altitude environments and force you to work on breathing techniques which is something boxers have to do. Nothing stupid about them if you're fight training. Now, if you're Joe Schmo off the street training in them because it looks cool, then I 100% agree with you, lol.

[JayBee74]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

I would say new-school fighters (those at the top of their classes sans Heavyweights) stay in better shape year-round and are in-general in better shape, mostly due to nutrition. Those masks help mimic training in high-altitude environments and force you to work on breathing techniques which is something boxers have to do. Nothing stupid about them if you're fight training. Now, if you're Joe Schmo off the street training in them because it looks cool, then I 100% agree with you, lol.

It's the boxer's year round lifestyle that will probably take a toll. If they like to drink and party A LOT (Pavlik, Tyson, Hatton, Duran, Baer, Chavez Jr etc.) or balloon up in weight, and then train 4-5 months out of the year for a couple of fights a year they're going to at a disadvantageous over someone that treats their body as a temple throughout the year (Bernard Hopkins, GGG).

[steelcityjames]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

in my opinion, no one takes better care of themselves year round than B-Hop and Wlad Klitschko. these guys are freaks, and both will probably train year round as long as they are alive

[redsox4evur]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/13621142/floyd-mayweather-took-wada-banned-iv-manny-pacquiao-fight-according-report&ex_cid=sportscenterTW?sf12949734=1

Figured this deserved to be mentioned. And this thread seemed the most appropriate.

[SPRINGS03]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

^I heard about that, i'm also hearing that apparently he had a TUE.

[aholbert32]

Re: Mayweather Vs. Pacquiao DEAL DONE

^I heard about that, i'm also hearing that apparently he had a TUE.

He did but it was given after the fight. It looks really shady.