Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

[Haz____]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

It is possible for someone to git gud and still find the game unresponsive. I think MartialMind is an example.

My point is that the relation between skill and feedback is still there. Players can have some bad impressions simply because they're still novices. Although it's good to have all feedback, the skilled feedback has more weight, when it comes to changing things that could affect the balance of the game.

I literally wrote the guide on headmovement last game. "Getting used to the delay" is not the issue. The issue is the delay.

The headmovement frames/ modes/ patterns don't change. They exist IRL, and they exist because logical combos exist, which the headmovement frames/modes exploit, because we know how combos are thrown.

UFC 3 is not fluid, or smooth enough to execute these frames. It's not a matter of "learning new frames", or "getting used to it".

It has nothing to do with "getting good". It's simply not possible.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

It's simply not possible.

What is not possible? Being good at head movement in UFC 3?

[Haz____]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

What is not possible? Being good at head movement in UFC 3?

Using frames/ modes/ patterns.

I'm not talking about flicking left -> right -> down. I'm talking about fluid frames.


Sure you can get good at gaming the game, but what you can't do, is use real life technique.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Are these patterns about slipping consecutive strikes?

[Haz____]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Are these patterns about slipping consecutive strikes?

Yes.



I've posted this gif before, but it's a great example.

Shogun is using "Frames" which are headmovement patterns, based around movements which dodge commonly thrown combinations.

These are fluid movements, not just flicking from left to right, and chaining flicks.

I understand the system allows you to kind of do this when you are standing still, but it's just not responsive enough.

It's not about getting good, or learning the movements. I know the movements. I just have to do them on the right stick instead of the left, but the game doesn't react to the stick moving fast enough, and the frame motion is choppy, and inelegant.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

It is possible for someone to git gud and still find the game unresponsive. I think MartialMind is an example.

My point is that the relation between skill and feedback is still there. Players can have some bad impressions simply because they're still novices. Although it's good to have all feedback, the skilled feedback has more weight, when it comes to changing things that could affect the balance of the game.

There's always a correlation between balancing requests and skill level. The less capable you are of dealing with a specific tactic and/or the less skilled you are in making use of a specific game mechanic, the more likely you are to complain about said thing.

That said, that's a separate issue from whether or not the game is in fact unresponsive.

Also, I understand valuing skilled player feedback over that of a novice when it comes to determining if a strategy or move is overpowered (though I don't know how you'd figured out how good someone is). But when it comes to responsiveness, I feel like that separation isn't really necessary all that much.

If you do not play reactively, you can still be extremely skilled and not notice this at all. But, if you're like me and you're a reaction based counter puncher, you'd have noticed the delay from the very first input in the beta.

Which one are you?

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

There's always a correlation between balancing requests and skill level. The less capable you are of dealing with a specific tactic and/or the less skilled you are in making use of a specific game mechanic, the more likely you are to complain about said thing.

That said, that's a separate issue from whether or not the game is in fact unresponsive.

Also, I understand valuing skilled player feedback over that of a novice when it comes to determining if a strategy or move is overpowered (though I don't know how you'd figured out how good someone is). But when it comes to responsiveness, I feel like that separation isn't really necessary all that much.

If you do not play reactively, you can still be extremely skilled and not notice this at all. But, if you're like me and you're a reaction based counter puncher, you'd have noticed the delay from the very first input in the beta.

Which one are you?

But the in fact unresponsiveness was shut down already, right?

And being a reaction-based player will only be a good thing if you can make the reactions work well, by tempering them with tactical anticipations. Overestimating the role of player reactions is an extremely common thing... even grossly underestimating it is common. You have to thoroughly use Ockham's Razor in order to see how reaction's niche is smaller than it seems.

I think a couple of months from now, more players would have studied the frames. I think it will help. I understand it probably seems like a disconnected issue, for now, at least.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

But the in fact unresponsiveness was shut down already, right?

It hasn't.

Unresponsive doesn't just mean input delay. It can mean unnecessarily many start-up frames, oversized deadzone, characters having too low stats, 30FPS, etc.

The fact is that there's a problem that manifests itself by limiting the players ability to react to things they (feel they) should be able to react to.

And being a reaction-based player will only be a good thing if you can make the reactions work well, by tempering them with tactical anticipations.

Sorry but that's just wrong. The whole point of being reaction-based is that you're not anticipating anything in particular.

Overestimating the role of player reactions is an extremely common thing... even grossly underestimating it is common. You have to thoroughly use Ockham's Razor in order to see how reaction's niche is smaller than it seems.

I don't know what this has to do with anything.

I think a couple of months from now, more players would have studied the frames. I think it will help. I understand it probably seems like a disconnected issue, for now, at least.

You still seem to not understand the problem.

[Haz____]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Unresponsive doesn't just mean input delay. It can mean unnecessarily many start-up frames, oversized deadzone, characters having too low stats, 30FPS, etc.

If the -Headmovement stat- Is the proposed solution to this issue, that has me concerned as well.

Many fighters not named Anderson Silva, and Cody Garbradnt have amazing headmovement, even if they aren't champion level fighters.

Guys like Ross Pearson, Mike Perry, Jorge Masvidal, Bobby Green, Rashid Magomedov, Lando Vanatta, Joe Duffy. These guys have super slick headmovement, but what are the odds guys like this get the stats they deserve?

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

The fact is that there's a problem that manifests itself by limiting the players ability to react to things they (feel they) should be able to react to.

Sorry but that's just wrong. The whole point of being reaction-based is that you're not anticipating anything in particular.

Sorry for highlighting your parentheses. But my point here is that that feeling might be dead wrong. People might be utterly unreasonable about things they should be able to react to.

Are you saying you don't combine your reactions with anticipation? You see the opponent coming at you. Mabe your reaction is good enough to only react upon confirming that he is actually striking, which is already quite an acomplishment. So... are you saying you only duck after confirming it's hook and not an upper? Or do you combine reacting to a strike with trying guess the tracking of that strike, in order to choose the direction of your lean?

If the -Headmovement stat- Is the proposed solution to this issue, that has me concerned as well.

Many fighters not named Anderson Silva, and Cody Garbradnt have amazing headmovement, even if they aren't champion level fighters.

Guys like Ross Pearson, Mike Perry, Jorge Masvidal, Bobby Green, Rashid Magomedov, Lando Vanatta, Joe Duffy. These guys have super slick headmovement, but what are the odds guys like this get the stats they deserve?

How did you like the stats in the beta?

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Sorry for highlighting your parentheses. But my point here is that that feeling might be dead wrong. People might be utterly unreasonable about things they should be able to react to.

I agree. But that's not the case here.

Are you saying you don't combine your reactions with anticipation?

Depends on the game.

You see the opponent coming at you. Mabe your reaction is good enough to only react upon confirming that he is actually striking, which is already quite an acomplishment.

Assuming I've positioned myself properly and I'm not at point blank range, yeah, I can react to that.

In real life it's somewhat similar. You keep your head off the center line and move it from side to side. If you see your opponent moving as if they're throwing, you twitch in a certain direction, confirm whether or not they're actually throwing and then either complete the full head movement or go back to the casual head sways.

So... are you saying you only duck after confirming it's hook and not an upper? Or do you combine reacting to a strike with trying guess the tracking of that strike, in order to choose the direction of your lean?

Confirming whether it's an uppercut or a hook is a bit extreme, not sure if anyone can do that.

What I can do though, is see which limb you're using and calculate the possible paths your strike can take (assuming you're aiming at my head) and decide where to move my head for you to be unable to hit me. I did it in Fight Night, I do it in real life, can't do it in UFC3.

It's why I hate the Rock-paper-scissors. Head movement is way more nuanced than that.

Look at this:



You can tell Tyson is looking at his opponent and reacted as soon as he saw the guy was about to throw a strike.

If that was UFC3 he'd have his head punched into orbit because "Uppercut beats duck bro".

[Haz____]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Assuming I've positioned myself properly and I'm not at point blank range, yeah, I can react to that.

In real life it's somewhat similar. You keep your head off the center line and move it from side to side. If you see your opponent moving as if they're throwing, you twitch in a certain direction, confirm whether or not they're actually throwing and then either complete the full head movement or go back to the casual head sways.

What I can do though, is see which limb you're using and calculate the possible paths your strike can take (assuming you're aiming at my head) and decide where to move my head for you to be unable to hit me. I did it in Fight Night, I do it in real life, can't do it in UFC3.

It's why I hate the Rock-paper-scissors. Head movement is way more nuanced than that.

Look at this:

Yes sir. Precisely this.

I also do this allllll the time in UFC 2. It's actually a huge part of my style.

Here is a video is just made of me showing off this exact movement type in UFC 2. This can not be done in UFC 3. It's just not responsive or smooth enough to pull it off.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/CdRg-HxzFuk" frameborder="0" gesture="media" allow="encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

What I can do though, is see which limb you're using and calculate the possible paths your strike can take (assuming you're aiming at my head) and decide where to move my head for you to be unable to hit me. I did it in Fight Night, I do it in real life, can't do it in UFC3.

Being able to do """that""" in FNC is where the subtle illusion is. Since the head movement in FNC lacks the specificity of tracking mechanics, it's easy to overestimate how specific it has to be. You think you're reacting to a a punch from a specific side, but if the direction of your slip doesn't have to be side-specific, are you really reacting to it, or tricking yourself into thinking you did, even though your mind processed the side of the strike considerably later? I had a similar to talk with ZombieRommel about this stuff, a while ago.

In UFC 3 you can actually react to specific sides and be duly rewarded for it. If you slip away from the punch, it will whiff if it's an upper or straight... and if it's a hook you will mitigate and armor it. Use it and rejoice!

[Haz____]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

In UFC 3 you can actually react to specific sides and be duly rewarded for it. If you slip away from the punch, it will whiff if it's an upper or straight... and if it's a hook you will mitigate and armor it. Use it and rejoice!

That is the exact rock, paper, scissors, X beats Y gameplay we are talking about not liking, is it not?

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Yes. Though that has timing, too... and "Option Select" alternatives, but lets simplify and say it is...

Do you think rock paper scissors is bad in general?