Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

We can't do that in UFC 3?

No. Not to the same degree.

[johnmangala]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I don't really understand.

Don't we still have EAUFC2 style 360 headmovement while standing still in EAUFC3? Just when moving it becomes the classic 4 direction sways.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I don't really understand.

Don't we still have EAUFC2 style 360 headmovement while standing still in EAUFC3? Just when moving it becomes the classic 4 direction sways.

I believe so.

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Agree 1000% with Zombie. Dude is always on point.

I dont think they’ll be interested in scrapping the current head movement system since it isnt really “bad”.

I still think the 8 direction system plus smaller dead zone and have us retain ability to slip even while getting hit(unless rocked or staggered). And having the start up/active frames tuned so it’s more responsive

AydinDubstep layed out a fantastic blue print.

But the idea of head movement being primarily preemptive isnt accurate.

How would you argue to GPD that an 8-way system gives users more functionality than they currently have with the 4-way system? I very much like the idea of an 8-way discrete system as a compromise if 360 degrees can't be done, but I think GPD might argue (and Solid_Altair also) that the current 4-way system provides the same functionality as an 8 way system, but just doesn't "feel" quite as fluid. I think they'd argue that you'd only be getting an aesthetic boost that wouldn't actually affect gameplay. I don't fully agree with that, but I'm posing the counter-arguments to you so that you can address them. GPD is a reasonable guy, he just wants to understand how an 8 way or 360 system provides concrete gameplay value that the current system doesn't.

One example I gave privately is that if I'm crouching and a fighter throws a knee or an uppercut at me in UFC3, I'm as good as dead. But in real life, I'd be able to pivot my head to the left or right, WHILE retaining my crouch, and then spring forward from the crouch for a powerful counter.

In UFC3, something like this is totally impossible. You'd have to cancel your crouch and swing your head fully to the left or right, opening you up to an uppercut/hook combo. If we could retain the crouch we'd be able to dodge the linear strike and the rounded strike.

But I think there are more gameplay scenarios like this I'm not thinking of.

Yup, good times.



I honestly agree with you entirely.



Baiting and conditioning.



Again, I entirely agree.

Btw, I don't want to lose the current system, I think it's awesome, just incomplete and needs a bit of tweaking.

My guess is that to make head movement complete we'd need some kind of hybrid between what we have now and FNC (in terms of controls).

When stationary, a modifier allows 360 head movement with the left stick. That way you can still press buttons. In any other situation we'd have the current system. Or something along those lines.

I'll give it some thought after the holidays..

Right, the baiting was a big part of how I played FNC... just putting my head at weird angles to see if people would bite and throw... or hanging my head off to a side, throwing a couple feeler jabs, and then slipping to another direction whenever the opponent tried to counter. Maybe pulling back just a little bit and throwing shots and then pulling completely back when the opponent fired back for real to screw with their sense of distance.

All these little nuances that come naturally as you play FNC.... all these things that feel so natural you don't even think about them, are gone in UFC3.

I think it's hard for Solid_Altair to appreciate subtleties like this because he didn't play FNC in its heyday. I picked the game up on midnight launch and played it for the better part of 3-4 years and at certain points was ranked in the top 200 players online. But I think these subtleties are easy to dismiss if you didn't experience them firsthand, and it's easy to point at the flaws and inconsistencies of the physics-based system and just say "Look, we have it better now. Everything is 100% consistent and fair."

While it's hard to argue that more consistency isn't better, I don't think the current system is a straight upgrade from FNC's head movement system. It's like a sidegrade. Each system had pros and cons. I would've preferred FNC's physics based approach, tuned more carefully for balance, and tuned for consistency, while also allowing us to do it while moving.

Instead we got a completely rebuilt system that threw the FNC system out the back door, and while the current system is good and has its own unique merits, I don't feel it fills the void left by FNC's system.

As for holding the left trigger to plant and move the head while being able to press the buttons (and alternatively use the right stick to move the head at will), I REALLY like this idea and I've forwarded it to GPD. I'm skeptical we'll see changes this late in development, but I would love to not have to transfer my thumbs from the stick to the buttons constantly. I think that's one of the current system's biggest flaws. Any way you slice it, using one thumb to access two different control platforms (stick vs buttons) is clumsier and less elegant than using a dedicated thumb for each task.

I believe so.

No, it's still a 4-way system, but we have the ability to sustain the leans as long as we want and transfer between them at will when stationary -- whereas while moving, each slip has a fixed amount of time for the head to move off center and then back to center.

I argued pretty hard for the sustained lean to be included in the game at all, as it wasn't part of the original design. It was originally going to be flicks only.

[johnmangala]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I believe so.

So the issue is we want 360 headmovement while moving?

That's fair. If possible, I would be in favor of that too.

[johnmangala]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Either 360 head movement or 8 directions?

[Haz____]

`

I don't really understand.

Don't we still have EAUFC2 style 360 headmovement while standing still in EAUFC3? Just when moving it becomes the classic 4 direction sways.

Not exactly. You sort of move from from 1 directional angle to the next, but not in a fluid smooth 360° rotation.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

So the issue is we want 360 headmovement while moving?

That's fair. If possible, I would be in favor of that too.

I think I get it now. I guess there isn't 360 movement in UFC 3 like in 2. In UFC 3 there are only four positions that you can shift through, but you can remain there when stationary. In UFC 2, punches while slipping relied on hit detection, but punches while slipping in 3 rely on frames.

The advocates want full 360 movement, but don't realize that it wouldn't really matter. Those that do understand that want to scrap it in favor of a FNC slip and lean system.

I didn't really get into FNC for more than 3 months, but based on descriptions I agree and disagree. I think baiting diagonally should be implemented in some capacity, but 360 headmovement while moving is a stretch. Slipping while moving already looks stupid. In reality MMA fighters only pull counter while stepping backwards and lean forward while moving forwards. There is zero reason rooted in realism for full 360 head movement while moving.

All said, I am perfectly fine with the current system so far. As far as utility goes, the frame tuning does the job well. I don't need full hit detection if the result is the same.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

No. Not to the same degree.

I'd agree to disagree, there.

[Haz____]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

So the issue is we want 360 headmovement while moving?

No, lol.....

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Either 360 head movement or 8 directions?

In my absolute dream system (that would make me cry tears of joy if I saw it):

• Flick-based head movement can still be done with the right stick, just like we can now
• Holding the Left Trigger and moving the Left Stick would plant the fighter's feet and result in full, 360 degree head movement with an instant return to center if the player let the stick return to neutral
• The "grey area" between the four cardinal directions would result in either reduced damage, slight misses, or longer or shorter punish windows depending upon the strike being slipped. There would be actual gameplay incentive to use the full range of motion.
• The "ideal" would be full 360 degree uninterrupted movement (while stationary) but 8 discrete angles with rapid transfer between each would be acceptable. The reason 360 degrees would be better is we would be able to assign HOW MUCH we want to lean in a given direction, which would allow us to play with distance. If I'm standing at the same distance away from Jon Jones throwing a hook vs Mark Hunt throwing a hook, I want to lean back MORE against Jones. Right now we can't manually prescribe that distance... we can only try to cancel the lean with a strike, which is something, but not ideal.

I agree that we don't really need full 360 degrees while moving. But if we're planted there is no reason we shouldn't have a full range of motion.

Right now, the 4 way system, while reliable and consistent (which is great), is too deterministic, stilted, and robotic, and it stifles the creativity that a free-form system allows.

I'd agree to disagree, there.

And I'd agree to disagree with you

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

I'd agree to disagree, there.

There's nothing to agree or disagree on.

I can't do the same kind of conditioning and baiting I used to do in FNC because it requires a level of control that doesn't exist in UFC3. It's a factual statement.

That's not to say there's no baiting and/or conditioning in UFC3, but like I said, not to the same degree because the head-movement is simplified.

[edit]

There is zero reason rooted in realism for full 360 head movement while moving.

Let the record state, I agreed with RetractedMonkey for the first time on 27 December 2017.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

There's nothing to agree or disagree on.

I can't do the same kind of conditioning and baiting I used to do in FNC because it requires a level of control that doesn't exist in UFC3. It's a factual statement.

That's not to say there's no baiting and/or conditioning in UFC3, but like I said, not to the same degree because the head-movement is simplified.

[edit]



Let the record state, I agreed with RetractedMonkey for the first time on 27 December 2017.

Not its meta.

When it comes to coaxing the opponent into doing or not doing specific things, there is much more variety and specificity in UFC 3.

The extra degrees (360) in FNC give the impression that there is much more going on in the meta than there actually is.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

Not its meta.

When it comes to coaxing the opponent into doing or not doing specific things, there is much more variety and specificity in UFC 3.

Yes, on paper. But no, not really.

Yes, since specific leans avoid specific punches, doing a certain lean over and over again invites your opponent to throw the type of strike that would beat said lean. That type of baiting doesn't exist in FNC because it's not a rock-paper-scissors system.

But no, it's not even remotely close to FNC because you cannot lean into angles that threaten specific punches. You can't lean forward to throw off your opponents distance gauging. You can't drop your guard and slowly move your head inviting offense, then dodge on reaction and counter. You also can't corner yourself and invite your opponent to gas himself out while you turtle up with head-movement while blocking and plenty more.

For the nth time, head-movement is significantly more nuanced than UFC3s variant. It's not bad, just incomplete.

The extra degrees (360) in FNC give the impression that there is much more going on in the meta than there actually is.

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

[johnmangala]

Re: Head Movement: Final Boss Thread

No, lol.....

Well what exactly then?