Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

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  • Skynet
    EA Sports UFC Developer
    • Mar 2015
    • 703

    #721
    Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

    Originally posted by sdpdude9
    Skynet, can you explain why I am seeing this type of behavior frequently from fighters are that are typically more passive fighters? Machida is being hyper aggressive from the get go.



    The aggressive types are even worse about this in my experience. This is on Pro difficulty with no sliders. The ai is often so aggressive they are gassed by round 3, or even halfway through round 2.
    Honestly, I cannot. That looks odd to me as well, and not the norm I'm used to. As noted in the above post about the goal system the AI chooses its goals using a weighted random, so it's always possible, although unlikely, that passive fighters will be aggressive. Though over time it shouldn't be that much...

    The AI will indeed be taking a notable chill-pill with the upcoming patch, as aholbert said, so I'll wait until after that settles to look into these cases much further.

    Comment

    • Phillyboi207
      Banned
      • Apr 2012
      • 3159

      #722
      Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

      Originally posted by Skynet
      Honestly, I cannot. That looks odd to me as well, and not the norm I'm used to. As noted in the above post about the goal system the AI chooses its goals using a weighted random, so it's always possible, although unlikely, that passive fighters will be aggressive. Though over time it shouldn't be that much...

      The AI will indeed be taking a notable chill-pill with the upcoming patch, as aholbert said, so I'll wait until after that settles to look into these cases much further.
      Cant wait

      Is it possible to remove the “random” from the goals?

      Fighters generally have a set gameplan at least the ones at the highest level.

      The random ones could be saved for well rounded guys.

      The dream would be to have goals based on your opponent’s ratings/perks

      Comment

      • AeroZeppelin27
        MVP
        • Nov 2017
        • 2287

        #723
        Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

        Originally posted by Kingslayer04
        I played vs Machida AI with Uriah Hall, +1 on Stamina tax for both me and AI, Legendary difficulty. It was a counterstriking behaviour, low output, no complaints whatsoever.
        All the passive guys CAN fight like that.
        But they very, very often don't, hopefully the new AI changes help make it a bit better.

        I too have them be overly aggressive quite often.

        As for Silva, I agree that he comes forward way too much, I don't mind his insanely good combos or counters, but he walks you down like we all wished Anderson did IRL.

        So I do hope that one changes with the (awesome sounding) New AI tweaks.

        Comment

        • AeroZeppelin27
          MVP
          • Nov 2017
          • 2287

          #724
          Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

          Originally posted by sdpdude9
          Skynet, can you explain why I am seeing this type of behavior frequently from fighters are that are typically more passive fighters? Machida is being hyper aggressive from the get go.



          The aggressive types are even worse about this in my experience. This is on Pro difficulty with no sliders. The ai is often so aggressive they are gassed by round 3, or even halfway through round 2.
          This is exactly the over aggression I've been having issues with and complaining about aswell.
          As has been stated it doesn't occur all the time, but it does happen more often than not for me.

          Great post/vid.

          Comment

          • AeroZeppelin27
            MVP
            • Nov 2017
            • 2287

            #725
            Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

            Originally posted by Phillyboi207
            Cant wait

            Is it possible to remove the “random” from the goals?

            Fighters generally have a set gameplan at least the ones at the highest level.

            The random ones could be saved for well rounded guys.

            The dream would be to have goals based on your opponent’s ratings/perks
            This is something I'd love to see in the future too.
            Adaptive AI.

            Basically I'd love to see it read the stats of the opponent and adapt accordingly.

            Tim Johnson v Werdum? Johnson shouldn't be regularly blasting double legs into Werdums Guard like he currently will.

            He should box, initiate clinches and basically look to control the fight in a very boring fashion on the feet as its his best path to victory.

            Basically, in this instance where Fighter A is outranked in every way by fighter B, then fighter A should ascertain which is the more dangerous (in this case, Werdums standup vs his ground game)

            And attempt to avoid that at all costs whilst using whatever gameplan it dictates may work.

            Think Ragin' Al vs Khabib. I'd love to see an AI that has a HUGE ground disadvantage literally change its whole striking style to lessen its risk of being taken down, no kicks, eating light shots over blocking as to not give up GA (this is probably a somewhat extreme example)

            I haven't articulated this that well.
            But it would (could) fix issues like the AI taking down Maia and Jacare, boxing with Conor, Sub grappling against Werdum, ect ect.

            Comment

            • Skynet
              EA Sports UFC Developer
              • Mar 2015
              • 703

              #726
              Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

              Originally posted by Phillyboi207
              Cant wait

              Is it possible to remove the “random” from the goals?

              Fighters generally have a set gameplan at least the ones at the highest level.

              The random ones could be saved for well rounded guys.

              The dream would be to have goals based on your opponent’s ratings/perks
              I would caution you not to overthink the examples I gave, and think that is exactly how the AI operates.

              In this case, a weighted random is a necessary part of a GOAP system in that it creates dynamic encounters and emergent behavior. The randomness is only in which goal gets picked, not in how they behave, and the weighted part means that some goals are much more likely than others. This also happens at a very fast pace, potentially multiple times each second. This isn't the larger 'what's my strategy in this fight' kind of choice, but the 'what action should I be performing this very moment' kind of choice.

              Without a random element, the AI would be 100% identical in fights, and would be insanely predictable, as it would likely just pick the current highest rated goal. This would also mean that lower rated but important goals would never be chosen.

              It's also the case that not every fighter has access to every goal, and that not every goal means the same thing to every fighter. Goals turn on and off all the time, depending on the state of the fight. Some goals are also forced to be chosen in some scenarios, such as when the higher lvl AI is rocked or injured, they retreat and try to recover.

              There's a heck of a lot more going on than I put into that little post, so again, I'd caution you to not think the AI does only what you might think from reading that.

              Comment

              • Skynet
                EA Sports UFC Developer
                • Mar 2015
                • 703

                #727
                Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                Originally posted by AeroZeppelin27
                This is something I'd love to see in the future too.
                Adaptive AI.

                Basically I'd love to see it read the stats of the opponent and adapt accordingly.

                Tim Johnson v Werdum? Johnson shouldn't be regularly blasting double legs into Werdums Guard like he currently will.

                He should box, initiate clinches and basically look to control the fight in a very boring fashion on the feet as its his best path to victory.

                Basically, in this instance where Fighter A is outranked in every way by fighter B, then fighter A should ascertain which is the more dangerous (in this case, Werdums standup vs his ground game)

                And attempt to avoid that at all costs whilst using whatever gameplan it dictates may work.

                Think Ragin' Al vs Khabib. I'd love to see an AI that has a HUGE ground disadvantage literally change its whole striking style to lessen its risk of being taken down, no kicks, eating light shots over blocking as to not give up GA (this is probably a somewhat extreme example)

                I haven't articulated this that well.
                But it would (could) fix issues like the AI taking down Maia and Jacare, boxing with Conor, Sub grappling against Werdum, ect ect.
                You're not alone in sharing this dream; however, Rome wasn't built in a day as they say. We've steadily been taking steps towards this, and continue to do so.

                This is definitely one of the long-term goals for the AI, as it ought to be. This is how real fighters fight, and that is the motivation for how the AI should fight.

                Feel free to agree with each other all you like and praise the glory of "if the AI only did this one thing...", but know that this one is definitely on our list already

                Comment

                • Phillyboi207
                  Banned
                  • Apr 2012
                  • 3159

                  #728
                  Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                  Originally posted by Skynet
                  I would caution you not to overthink the examples I gave, and think that is exactly how the AI operates.

                  In this case, a weighted random is a necessary part of a GOAP system in that it creates dynamic encounters and emergent behavior. The randomness is only in which goal gets picked, not in how they behave, and the weighted part means that some goals are much more likely than others. This also happens at a very fast pace, potentially multiple times each second. This isn't the larger 'what's my strategy in this fight' kind of choice, but the 'what action should I be performing this very moment' kind of choice.

                  Without a random element, the AI would be 100% identical in fights, and would be insanely predictable, as it would likely just pick the current highest rated goal. This would also mean that lower rated but important goals would never be chosen.

                  It's also the case that not every fighter has access to every goal, and that not every goal means the same thing to every fighter. Goals turn on and off all the time, depending on the state of the fight. Some goals are also forced to be chosen in some scenarios, such as when the higher lvl AI is rocked or injured, they retreat and try to recover.

                  There's a heck of a lot more going on than I put into that little post, so again, I'd caution you to not think the AI does only what you might think from reading that.
                  Fair enough

                  I appreciate the insight you’ve provided and I’m sure I wouldnt be able to comprehend everything going on with the AI.

                  Just know you’ve done an amazing job since taking over. The AI is sooo much better than it’s ever been.

                  I hope for UFC4 we can get more sliders/ freedom to edit fighters( think nba 2k levels of customization). I can only imagine how difficult it is to tune the AI to please everyone. I’d rather ease the burdon on you and have us spend the time tweaking it.

                  Comment

                  • Kingslayer04
                    MVP
                    • Dec 2017
                    • 1482

                    #729
                    Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                    This is probably for Skynet - is stamima preservation a possible goal for the AI? I notice they gas out very fast, which is further exacerbated by me going for the body and them not blocking enough in general.

                    Comment

                    • Skynet
                      EA Sports UFC Developer
                      • Mar 2015
                      • 703

                      #730
                      Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                      Originally posted by Kingslayer04
                      This is probably for Skynet - is stamima preservation a possible goal for the AI? I notice they gas out very fast, which is further exacerbated by me going for the body and them not blocking enough in general.
                      The planner system is rather too short-term for something like stamina preservation on a whole. While there are goals to recover stamina when it's low, they are already fairly high in selection weight.

                      The kind of behavioral changes needed for something like this are more widespread, and are around things like which strike do I pick given how low my current stamina is, and should I be notably less aggressive because this is a 5 round fight vs 3 round, etc. Those kinds of changes are much more difficult, because they're never tied to any one place, and it's hard to control them from any one tendency of a given fighter to preserve stamina.

                      An ongoing battle...

                      Comment

                      • Kingslayer04
                        MVP
                        • Dec 2017
                        • 1482

                        #731
                        Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                        A few questions about Open Weight - can it be made so power, etc., is represented in a way where if DJ gets hit by Ngannou it's lights out. I'm not sure if it's like that now, but by guess is no, since I got taken down as Ngannou by Ricardo Lamas. It's just a bummer, and I suppose nothing can be done about it, but I want to ask anyway. Also, a suggestion - why not add a 32 and 64 fighter bracket, not just 16. Surely that can't be hard to do?

                        Oh my, Stipe dropped my Lamas with ease now. Is it realistic?
                        Last edited by Kingslayer04; 08-16-2018, 12:44 PM.

                        Comment

                        • AeroZeppelin27
                          MVP
                          • Nov 2017
                          • 2287

                          #732
                          Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                          Originally posted by Kingslayer04
                          A few questions about Open Weight - can it be made so power, etc., is represented in a way where if DJ gets hit by Ngannou it's lights out. I'm not sure if it's like that now, but by guess is no, since I got taken down as Ngannou by Ricardo Lamas. It's just a bummer, and I suppose nothing can be done about it, but I want to ask anyway. Also, a suggestion - why not add a 32 and 64 fighter bracket, not just 16. Surely that can't be hard to do?

                          Oh my, Stipe dropped my Lamas with ease now. Is it realistic?
                          OW is basically just each weight classes default settings vs eachother if I'm not mistaken.

                          So Llamas strikes are doing the dam they'd normally do at FW, and Stipes HW.

                          So on the feet its all about volume vs power, there's a noticeable speed difference, ect.

                          Buuut, grappling breaks the illusion hardcore.
                          Ngannou morphs down to compensate for DJs size, so when they stand back up he awkwardly Hulks out and grows a good 2 foot

                          This actually happens a lot more than you'd think when fighters have drastic height/reach differences in grappling, its purely astjetic however, presumably to fix clipping/awkward looking animations.

                          I think there is a difference in strike damage in grappling, however there is (that I've found) no difference in top game/TD off or any of that.

                          It's no real issue as its a kinda little bonus mode, don't get me wrong, but I think drastic weight differences only really feel (somewhat) realistic on the feet.

                          If you were doing set weight class mixes Fly v HW, for example, you could also adjust with sliders to make it far more accurate.

                          And fights within 3 weight classes of eachother (MW v HW) usually feel pretty good.

                          Comment

                          • aholbert32
                            (aka Alberto)
                            • Jul 2002
                            • 33106

                            #733
                            Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                            Originally posted by Kingslayer04
                            A few questions about Open Weight - can it be made so power, etc., is represented in a way where if DJ gets hit by Ngannou it's lights out. I'm not sure if it's like that now, but by guess is no, since I got taken down as Ngannou by Ricardo Lamas. It's just a bummer, and I suppose nothing can be done about it, but I want to ask anyway. Also, a suggestion - why not add a 32 and 64 fighter bracket, not just 16. Surely that can't be hard to do?

                            Oh my, Stipe dropped my Lamas with ease now. Is it realistic?
                            Its like that now. I was able to rock DJ with Struve within seconds just by landing a clean strike.

                            Comment

                            • Kingslayer04
                              MVP
                              • Dec 2017
                              • 1482

                              #734
                              Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                              Originally posted by aholbert32
                              Its like that now. I was able to rock DJ with Struve within seconds just by landing a clean strike.
                              Yeah, I noticed. With continued damage I struggled to hurt Rothwell with Iaquinta. Another question, does continued damage mean lower stamina as well? I'm asking because I played with the HUD off.

                              Comment

                              • AeroZeppelin27
                                MVP
                                • Nov 2017
                                • 2287

                                #735
                                Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                                Originally posted by Kingslayer04
                                Yeah, I noticed. With continued damage I struggled to hurt Rothwell with Iaquinta. Another question, does continued damage mean lower stamina as well? I'm asking because I played with the HUD off.
                                Are you talking about the continued damaged feature of tournaments?

                                Where you'll keep the damage sustained in fight A into fight B?

                                If so, yes, stamina drain carries too.

                                If I'm not mistaken, you get a slight stam boost between fights, but if you finish your 2nd fight gassed there's a very good chance you'll start the 3rd gassed.

                                Comment

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