Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

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  • johnmangala
    MVP
    • Apr 2016
    • 4525

    #871
    Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

    Few major issues with the AI:

    • You cannot enter the pocket without the AI striking, at least on Legendary difficulty. It's very predictable.

    • The AI never taunts.

    • The AI always has ridiculous output. Averaging 100+ strikes around even for low stamina fighters like McGregor.

    • The AI never uses the new lunging straight strikes, but uses the newer fake TDs tho.

    • The AI rarely uses minor lunges. On Legendary it would actually enhance the difficulty. It would vary the tempo and not always be so lightning combo and perfect counter happy.

    • The AI rarely switches stances for fighters that regularly do like Dillashaw, Cruz etc. It doesn't even switch much with damaged legs.

    • The AI rarely utlizes single strikes it's almost always combo happy, but maybe that is more indicative of the meta than the AI

    • Stuns in this game in general are way too common. It shouldn't be so easy to cause them. It's almost always a rock fest against the AI or human.

    • What are the downsides of being gassed? The strikes are seemingly nearly the same if not same speed and retain most if not all the power. There is no incentive to play conservatively when being gassed is hardly a dangerous situation. This is the case for both the AI and humans.

    Comment

    • WarMMA
      MVP
      • Apr 2016
      • 4612

      #872
      Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

      Yh the AI has a few things it can do better and some of their tendancies and things need to be polished up, but its the best AI in an MMA game so far tbh. Definitely agree with the issues in your post though. My thing is just the AI not being a bit more true to the fighters, as I stated in my previous post. Like on the harder difficulties, its like they settled for just letting the AI do the "perfect" thing in situations while striking, instead of letting it stay more true to its real life counterpart. Thus you have things going on like the AI spamming side lunges at times, a fighter like DC throwing too much front kicks to the face, or Cody Garbrandt throwing these handplant roundhouse too much or Wanderlei countering like he's prime Anderson Silva. Needs to be more emphasis on the fighters AI striking like the fighters themselves and less on them being these great counter strikers or always doing the "perfect" thing in a given situation. That kind of thing could be left for strictly legendary difficulty.
      Last edited by WarMMA; 01-06-2019, 07:14 PM.

      Comment

      • johnmangala
        MVP
        • Apr 2016
        • 4525

        #873
        Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

        I agree there should be more fighter specific templates, at least for the major distinguishable fighters.

        One issue is there really isn't a leading AI template, they seem to rely on countering too much.

        For example on Legendary difficulty you could be standing still or circling and the AI will stand still and won't engage much. They will come forward for a moment fire a lightning combo and be back out of range and circle away. But if you move forward on the AI it will be on it's bike.

        Moving forward into the pocket the AI will throw strikes out predictably and circle away.

        It doesn't seem to adapt or make reads noticably.. it just throws lightning combos and circle away- rinse and repeat.

        The AI doesn't seem to have a concept of cutting the cage either, it would rather sit back and land perfect counters.

        Comment

        • AeroZeppelin27
          MVP
          • Nov 2017
          • 2287

          #874
          Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

          Originally posted by johnmangala
          Few major issues with the AI:
          .
          Great post, I agree with a lot of these.
          Though I'd argue the AIs output is subjective.

          Personally it averages 50 strikes per round for me on Pro or Legendary on ACC clock, this is possibly due to play style or clock speed. I've had 30's and 40's from counter strikers too.

          Though I'd love to see the Real Time Clock AI have it's output dropped to compensate for increased round time.

          Same with low stamina. I can definitely notice the difference in striking and movement speed after hitting 50% stamina, it's not huge but it does make a difference, especially if you're fighting someone with the same strike speed.

          Though I agree that more often than not the AI still feels extremely powerful when gassed.

          And finally, I strongly believe taunts shouldn't be added until we have true adaptive AI, simply because under the current system. It would taunt randomly, which wouldn't be good given how dangerous taunting is. Unless the AI taunted intelligently and cancelled taunts to block 99% of the time I really don't think it would work.

          Rest of your points are pretty damn spot on though, especially the AI striking as you come into range. That's reliable and easy to exploit.

          Same with feints. It's arguably too easy to use feints well out of effective range and get reactions.

          Also I'd love to see more pressure heavy, walk you down AIs that aren't so reliant on counter striking, currently there is only Mike Perry who springs to mind, his AI is pretty aggressive.

          Comment

          • WarMMA
            MVP
            • Apr 2016
            • 4612

            #875
            Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

            Originally posted by AeroZeppelin27
            Also I'd love to see more pressure heavy, walk you down AIs that aren't so reliant on counter striking, currently there is only Mike Perry who springs to mind, his AI is pretty aggressive.
            Wanderlei Silva's AI is also. But its also a counter god lol.

            Comment

            • johnmangala
              MVP
              • Apr 2016
              • 4525

              #876
              Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

              Originally posted by AeroZeppelin27
              Great post, I agree with a lot of these.
              Though I'd argue the AIs output is subjective.

              Personally it averages 50 strikes per round for me on Pro or Legendary on ACC clock, this is possibly due to play style or clock speed. I've had 30's and 40's from counter strikers too.

              Though I'd love to see the Real Time Clock AI have it's output dropped to compensate for increased round time.

              Same with low stamina. I can definitely notice the difference in striking and movement speed after hitting 50% stamina, it's not huge but it does make a difference, especially if you're fighting someone with the same strike speed.

              Though I agree that more often than not the AI still feels extremely powerful when gassed.

              And finally, I strongly believe taunts shouldn't be added until we have true adaptive AI, simply because under the current system. It would taunt randomly, which wouldn't be good given how dangerous taunting is. Unless the AI taunted intelligently and cancelled taunts to block 99% of the time I really don't think it would work.

              Rest of your points are pretty damn spot on though, especially the AI striking as you come into range. That's reliable and easy to exploit.

              Same with feints. It's arguably too easy to use feints well out of effective range and get reactions.

              Also I'd love to see more pressure heavy, walk you down AIs that aren't so reliant on counter striking, currently there is only Mike Perry who springs to mind, his AI is pretty aggressive.
              I play on RTC, so that's why there is around a 100+ strike average. IIRC ACC is around 3 mins so even 50 strikes in 3 mins is pretty high output. An output slider would be useful.

              There is a slight difference in speed but not enough imo. Change in power is negligible as well. It need not be a dramatic difference, but it should be more pronounced imo.

              Getting someone low stamina is hard work in the game since you have to evade the strikes with minor and major lunges/head movement or land more body strikes to cause significant stamina drain. These are more risky than just throwing combos and getting an easy rock with uppercut hook style combos.

              I doubt blocked strikes will ever significantly drain the opponent's stamina since the GCs are against it apparently because they argue it's too high a reward for a passive easy action as blocking.. which is a decent argument.

              So I think raising the base stamina cost for strikes is what is needed. The stamina cost slider really demonstrates the difference and makes for a more realistic game.

              That is a good point on taunting AI. The AI doesn't really adapt that well, it is hard to beat on higher levels because of it's lightning combos and perfect counters. High level human players are hard to beat because they adapt and make reads in the game.

              I find that the AI bites on feints very often because it is programmed to try to make us respect their range too much. If you feint from quite a distant the AI doesn't do anything but feint anywhere around the pocket and it will try to maintain that space.

              The AI should use minor lunges more to drain stamina rather than nearly always striking once near the pocket to maintain distance. It would make the AI much harder to beat but would add variety and realism.

              There definitely is slightly aggressive templates but it doesn't lead that much, it will push forward for a bit then fire lightning combos and back away- more like Cody Garbrant. There really isn't Prime Cain style constant pressure and cage cutting like you see online often.

              Comment

              • Skynet
                EA Sports UFC Developer
                • Mar 2015
                • 703

                #877
                Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                Originally posted by AeroZeppelin27
                I've found a pretty reliable exploit that you can use to KO the AI easily.

                TD oriented AIs, when denied into over under off a takedown, will often immediately shoot another take-down off the break, which you can reliably counter with a knee or uppercut for huge damage (95%)

                So:
                AI shoots on player.

                Player denies to double under and immediately separates from the clinch.

                AI will FAR more often than not shoot another TD.

                Rinse and repeat, it will keep shooting as long as you keep denying to double under and breaking.

                If you're using a fighter with a flying knee you can basically throw it immediately after the break and the AI will legitimately dive into its pretty funny really.

                I can put together a video if required but it's pretty easy to replicate on Pro difficulty.
                Thankfully, I know exactly what's going on here from your explanation.

                Sadly, I likely won't have the time/resources to fix it. Would have to be a house rule at this point

                Comment

                • dude169
                  Just started!
                  • Apr 2013
                  • 1

                  #878
                  Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                  Originally posted by Skynet
                  Thankfully, I know exactly what's going on here from your explanation.

                  Sadly, I likely won't have the time/resources to fix it. Would have to be a house rule at this point
                  hi Skynet do you have a plan to put AI Tendencies like in the Fire Pro Wrestling in the next UFC game? let the player share the fighter roster and ai tendencies ? i think it is the key to fix offline player who find the AI is unrealistic at some point.

                  Comment

                  • Skynet
                    EA Sports UFC Developer
                    • Mar 2015
                    • 703

                    #879
                    Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                    Originally posted by dude169
                    hi Skynet do you have a plan to put AI Tendencies like in the Fire Pro Wrestling in the next UFC game? let the player share the fighter roster and ai tendencies ? i think it is the key to fix offline player who find the AI is unrealistic at some point.
                    I'd love to make highly customizable and shareable AIs, but that involves a lot more than just exposing the values in the AI. We've actually looked at doing this a few times, and tried to scope out what all the work would be, and it's no small task.

                    The only thing I would have to do is expose some more AI data. However, someone would have to create screens, someone would have to create a save/load system for exporting and importing the AIs, someone would have to build a method of actually sharing those between consoles/modes, we would have to make sure the customization interface didn't allow for broken AIs, etc.

                    There are also significant security risks with having shared content between users, and loading public data into a game.

                    So again, I'd love to see this kind of feature, and have indeed been pushing for it, but it's ultimately not up to me nor would I be responsible for most of the work needed.

                    Edit: This is not to say it can't or won't be done, as it's definitely a feature that we can see has a ton of potential, and that a lot of people want. It's just not something we can add in on a whim.

                    Comment

                    • iceberg3445
                      Rookie
                      • Dec 2017
                      • 431

                      #880
                      Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                      Originally posted by Skynet
                      I'd love to make highly customizable and shareable AIs, but that involves a lot more than just exposing the values in the AI. We've actually looked at doing this a few times, and tried to scope out what all the work would be, and it's no small task.

                      The only thing I would have to do is expose some more AI data. However, someone would have to create screens, someone would have to create a save/load system for exporting and importing the AIs, someone would have to build a method of actually sharing those between consoles/modes, we would have to make sure the customization interface didn't allow for broken AIs, etc.

                      There are also significant security risks with having shared content between users, and loading public data into a game.

                      So again, I'd love to see this kind of feature, and have indeed been pushing for it, but it's ultimately not up to me nor would I be responsible for most of the work needed.

                      Edit: This is not to say it can't or won't be done, as it's definitely a feature that we can see has a ton of potential, and that a lot of people want. It's just not something we can add in on a whim.


                      You’re the man Skynet


                      Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

                      Comment

                      • AeroZeppelin27
                        MVP
                        • Nov 2017
                        • 2287

                        #881
                        Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                        Something I'd love to see in UFC 4:

                        Separated difficulty for stand up and ground game.

                        An example under the current system:

                        I love the AIs grappling on Legendary, it almost feels competent, but it's striking just feels way too mechanically perfect.

                        It's always throwing the right strike in the right direction and will slip damn near everything setup or no and it has that impeccable frame time knowledge that just destroys my existence.

                        But Pro presents a much more realistic striking output and defense that's also challenging, but the ground game is pretty easy, one denial from top gives you a free transition against all but the best AIs on Pro, 2 from bottom against high level wrestlers.

                        I also see a lot of casual players complain that the AI is too good for them on the ground at higher difficulties and too easy on the feet at lower so this would alleviate that I believe.

                        Comment

                        • aholbert32
                          (aka Alberto)
                          • Jul 2002
                          • 33106

                          #882
                          Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                          Originally posted by AeroZeppelin27
                          Something I'd love to see in UFC 4:

                          Separated difficulty for stand up and ground game.

                          An example under the current system:

                          I love the AIs grappling on Legendary, it almost feels competent, but it's striking just feels way too mechanically perfect.

                          It's always throwing the right strike in the right direction and will slip damn near everything setup or no and it has that impeccable frame time knowledge that just destroys my existence.

                          But Pro presents a much more realistic striking output and defense that's also challenging, but the ground game is pretty easy, one denial from top gives you a free transition against all but the best AIs on Pro, 2 from bottom against high level wrestlers.

                          I also see a lot of casual players complain that the AI is too good for them on the ground at higher difficulties and too easy on the feet at lower so this would alleviate that I believe.
                          Great idea. Its similar to the Show where there is separate difficulties for pitching and hitting.

                          Comment

                          • Phillyboi207
                            Banned
                            • Apr 2012
                            • 3159

                            #883
                            Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                            Originally posted by aholbert32
                            Great idea. Its similar to the Show where there is separate difficulties for pitching and hitting.
                            Would be cool if the AI template could be different for striking and grappling as well.

                            It would make a big difference when creating Cafs

                            Comment

                            • aholbert32
                              (aka Alberto)
                              • Jul 2002
                              • 33106

                              #884
                              Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                              Originally posted by Phillyboi207
                              Would be cool if the AI template could be different for striking and grappling as well.

                              It would make a big difference when creating Cafs
                              Intrested to see what Skynet thinks about that because at first glance it doesnt appear to be an easy thing to add with the way the AI templates were structured.

                              Comment

                              • Phillyboi207
                                Banned
                                • Apr 2012
                                • 3159

                                #885
                                Re: Fighter AI Realism vs Difficulty

                                Originally posted by aholbert32
                                Intrested to see what Skynet thinks about that because at first glance it doesnt appear to be an easy thing to add with the way the AI templates were structured.
                                I hope it could be changed. Also the sliders being switched to Red vs Blue corner. That way we can use them for cpu vs cpu matches.

                                Add in online sliders (for quick match invites) and I dont think I could ask for much else.

                                Ability to edit the roster an save/share/ use online would be incredible but I wont get my hopes up on that.

                                Comment

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