So After Several Days With The Game... Is Top Mount OP?

[WarMMA]

Re: So After Several Days With The Game... Is Top Mount OP?

The thing I wanted to add most to the grappling this year was quarter guard.

I felt it would have really help balance out mount a lot more.

But to do that, we would have had to give up the single leg and double leg against the cage.

Quarter guard isn't as exciting a feature to market, so we went with what we have.

But I still really wish we could add quarter guard.

Yup definitely would have been a welcomed addition and I remember you talking about it. Tbh you should have just went ahead and added it anyway instead of the single and double against the cage, cuz those positions are not implemented the correct way anyhow. Such nice animations that we rarely see cuz the positions only trigger on late denials if I remember correctly? They should happen on everything except early denials once your near enough to the cage. Quarter guard would have definitely helped balance things out a bit more cuz it could have been an easier transition to pull off and help get the SUB fighter not completely out of the fire, but out of the heat a bit. Next game though or maybe in a patch?

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: So After Several Days With The Game... Is Top Mount OP?

This is actually what I was thinking. 10 years ago full mount was game over but these days people rarely even go for it because it is easily defended. Modern MMA the place to be is side control, it is easier to maintain and gives good striking and submission options and gives little leverage to the guy on bottom. Full mount is used more for stalling than anything else.

We also need cage positions badly. This is what Khabib does a lot too along with most wrestlers, you just look at Stipe vs Ngnnaou as well. But generally until a sub is sunk in, top position has mostly been used to control the fight, not finish it. And when fights do end from GnP outside of a knock down, it's from TONS of GnP...this is one of those things that EA MMA did almost perfectly. You would wear out the opponent and it would be easier to get the sub, which is how ground grappling & GnP has worked lately irl. Most wrestlers aren't finishing via GnP, they are getting UDs and Sub wins.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: So After Several Days With The Game... Is Top Mount OP?

In real finishes dont happen from mount because people give up their back

I do wish we could hip bump first for GA and get a speed boosted shrimp to half guard

[Serengeti1]

Re: So After Several Days With The Game... Is Top Mount OP?

Actually yes we do combat jujitsu sparring with open palm strikes.

It happens more often than I think you realise.

With that said what tends to happen more often is the person on the bottom rolls to their back after taking a series of shots in mount and thus give up their neck for the finish hence the finish not technically being from full mount.

Moreover the UFC isn't the only MMA organization around. Watch regional shows and some of the smaller organizations such as ONE FC, Bellator, WFA, IPL etc. And you will see a lot more mount finishes.

So to your sarcastic response, yes this does happen irl in the modern era. And yes i do have real life experience. I challenge you to let someone mount you and land strikes while you try to get out...It's not easy nor should it be in the game.

Finally look at the scoring system in jits. Each position is scored based on the ability to cause damage via strikes even though strikes aren't allowed in comp. Mount is the second highest scoring position other than back mount. Having mount as a strong position is very justified whether you agree or not.

It wasn't really a sarcastic response. I was just making a point. I didn't question whether you have real life experience? I and many others do too.

wtf is a Bellator?

Srsly tho regional shows don't count for much lol. We're playing as the highest level MMA fighters in the world. Not guys at your BJJ gym or at regional shows.

What I will say is guys rolling to their back and getting finished by a rear naked is pretty common.

Top mount should obviously be a dominant position. I just don't like getting KO'd stiff in like 5 punches.

[MadChendez]

Re: So After Several Days With The Game... Is Top Mount OP?

It wasn't really a sarcastic response. I was just making a point. I didn't question whether you have real life experience? I and many others do too.

wtf is a Bellator?

Srsly tho regional shows don't count for much lol. We're playing as the highest level MMA fighters in the world. Not guys at your BJJ gym or at regional shows.

What I will say is guys rolling to their back and getting finished by a rear naked is pretty common.

Top mount should obviously be a dominant position. I just don't like getting KO'd stiff in like 5 punches.

I think you are way off on this one.

But don't take my word for it. The below article is from Henry Akins March 17:

https://www.bjjee.com/articles/why-the-mount-is-superior-to-the-back-in-mma-or-for-fighting/

But I'm sure it's just "guys from my gym" that think mount is a strong position.

[Serengeti1]

Re: So After Several Days With The Game... Is Top Mount OP?

I think you are way off on this one.

But don't take my word for it. The below article is from Henry Akins March 17:

https://www.bjjee.com/articles/why-the-mount-is-superior-to-the-back-in-mma-or-for-fighting/

But I'm sure it's just "guys from my gym" that think mount is a strong position.

This article talks about submissions from mount. I'm only talking about the rate of striking finishes from top mount. Which is much, much higher in game than irl. It's just too easy. If the system and sequences were better and you couldn't KO a guy stiff in 5 punches I'd be much more okay with it. I mean who really ever goes for a submission from top mount in this game? It's rare.

Also, who gets KO'd unconscious by a guy in top mount irl?

[Serengeti1]

Re: So After Several Days With The Game... Is Top Mount OP?

As for the topic question: no. I know that’s funny coming from me considering I made a topic just like this, but mount over all is not OP.

What really happened was the defensive options were nerfed. Half guard transition only works now when the defender has good GA, stamina, and the opponent has lower stamina. I don’t like this change. However, I like that back mount has now been given some utility. Rolling over is your best defensive option now. The half guard roll from there is a fast transition. But, I like to stall and wait for punches so I can shake them off the back. Back mount needs a lot of work still (especially because people can stall from there and reset the standup timer) and I like that it was buffed, but not at the expense of the half guard transition.

As another note, arm traps are almost entirely useless in mount. They have to be wailing on you over and over with the same side arm for the risk-reward to swing in your favor. If you miss an arm trap, there is a good possibility you will be KOed. Currently, I’m okay with this.

I'll take your word for it as you've been playing ranked for longer than me. I'm going to work on those positions now.

The arm trap thing is definitely something to look out for. I'm also pretty fine with it for now but maybe a slight buff wouldn't hurt at some point if they're completely useless a bit later on into the game's cycle.

[MadChendez]

Re: So After Several Days With The Game... Is Top Mount OP?

This article talks about submissions from mount. I'm only talking about the rate of striking finishes from top mount. Which is much, much higher in game than irl. It's just too easy. If the system and sequences were better and you couldn't KO a guy stiff in 5 punches I'd be much more okay with it. I mean who really ever goes for a submission from top mount in this game? It's rare.

Also, who gets KO'd unconscious by a guy in top mount irl?

Because we only have one to chose from? In real life there are multiple.

The article also talks about the difficulty in escaping mount and the ability to land strikes in mount. It talks about the uncomfort of someone having you in mount

You have to understand that this game can't simulate real life 100% and there needs to be balance. This is coming from someone who plays a SIM style.

You can't just nerf everything because you can win using it.

If someone postures up in mount and lands 5 clean punches to your jaw you would be done. Watch Derek Lewis v Travis Brown

It's not impossible to escape mount either. Block 3 strikes get GA and transition?

The one area I think could improve are the arm trap windows but again this is not easy to do in real life.

Mount is a powerful position and has been recognised as such for years hence the jits scoring system.

As I said before you don't see so many finishes labelled as from mount as fighters usually give their back and neck for the choke.

That mechanic isn't going to be replicated in game because there are too many variables.what we have is a strong mount position that reflects the dangers that the position poses in real life.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: So After Several Days With The Game... Is Top Mount OP?

This article talks about submissions from mount. I'm only talking about the rate of striking finishes from top mount. Which is much, much higher in game than irl. It's just too easy. If the system and sequences were better and you couldn't KO a guy stiff in 5 punches I'd be much more okay with it. I mean who really ever goes for a submission from top mount in this game? It's rare.

Also, who gets KO'd unconscious by a guy in top mount irl?

When dudes get hit with heavy punches irl they usually give up their back and then get choked out.

If you choose to stay in mount that’s on you

[Abstrakt fists]

Re: So After Several Days With The Game... Is Top Mount OP?

Actually yes we do combat jujitsu sparring with open palm strikes.

It happens more often than I think you realise.

With that said what tends to happen more often is the person on the bottom rolls to their back after taking a series of shots in mount and thus give up their neck for the finish hence the finish not technically being from full mount.

Moreover the UFC isn't the only MMA organization around. Watch regional shows and some of the smaller organizations such as ONE FC, Bellator, WFA, IPL etc. And you will see a lot more mount finishes.

So to your sarcastic response, yes this does happen irl in the modern era. And yes i do have real life experience. I challenge you to let someone mount you and land strikes while you try to get out...It's not easy nor should it be in the game.

Finally look at the scoring system in jits. Each position is scored based on the ability to cause damage via strikes even though strikes aren't allowed in comp. Mount is the second highest scoring position other than back mount. Having mount as a strong position is very justified whether you agree or not.

I really don't see people finish from mount very much at all lately and I go to regional shows nearly every weekend. It is a sticky position but posturing up in mount puts you in such an awkward position in terms of balance to throw a strike. Your center of balance is over your opponents hips so every time they buck you have to either get back down from posture or put a hand down to post. If you posture up for longer than a second you are likely getting swept or they will shrimp out when you swing because your momentum is all going forward. I never really understood the scoring for mount in sports (no gi) bjj, competitively the position is just a stall tactic unless you have a really mean arm triangle. For the guy on top without strikes it really is the position with the least amount of options. I generally keep credentials out of the forum but just for reference I used to fight pro and have about 15 years training under Jeremy Horn.

[Dave_S]

Re: So After Several Days With The Game... Is Top Mount OP?

Lots of fighters in the UFC have a very poor mount. It's been described as a lost art, lol.


If you don't have arm traps it feels like you are frequently screwed. I can try and build up GA but sometimes the strikes still smash you before you can complete transition. We shouldn't be depending on arm traps or giving up the back, especially against 85% of the roster.

I don't know what quarter guard is lol.

From postured up back mount it would be great in UFC 4 if we could put one hand down for support with less stamina drain.

[Abstrakt fists]

Re: So After Several Days With The Game... Is Top Mount OP?

Because we only have one to chose from? In real life there are multiple.

The article also talks about the difficulty in escaping mount and the ability to land strikes in mount. It talks about the uncomfort of someone having you in mount

You have to understand that this game can't simulate real life 100% and there needs to be balance. This is coming from someone who plays a SIM style.

You can't just nerf everything because you can win using it.

If someone postures up in mount and lands 5 clean punches to your jaw you would be done. Watch Derek Lewis v Travis Brown

It's not impossible to escape mount either. Block 3 strikes get GA and transition?

The one area I think could improve are the arm trap windows but again this is not easy to do in real life.

Mount is a powerful position and has been recognised as such for years hence the jits scoring system.

As I said before you don't see so many finishes labelled as from mount as fighters usually give their back and neck for the choke.

That mechanic isn't going to be replicated in game because there are too many variables.what we have is a strong mount position that reflects the dangers that the position poses in real life.

Getting choked out from your back isn't mount though. If I could give up my back after getting hit instead of my fighter waiving his arms around like an idiot while he gets knocked out then I would do it.

[Abstrakt fists]

Re: So After Several Days With The Game... Is Top Mount OP?

I don't know what quarter guard is lol.

it's a Z-Guard or half butterfly. Basically half mount with the outside foot in a butterfly/x guard position

[Serengeti1]

Re: So After Several Days With The Game... Is Top Mount OP?

Because we only have one to chose from? In real life there are multiple.

The article also talks about the difficulty in escaping mount and the ability to land strikes in mount. It talks about the uncomfort of someone having you in mount

You have to understand that this game can't simulate real life 100% and there needs to be balance. This is coming from someone who plays a SIM style.

You can't just nerf everything because you can win using it.

If someone postures up in mount and lands 5 clean punches to your jaw you would be done. Watch Derek Lewis v Travis Brown

It's not impossible to escape mount either. Block 3 strikes get GA and transition?

The one area I think could improve are the arm trap windows but again this is not easy to do in real life.

Mount is a powerful position and has been recognised as such for years hence the jits scoring system.

As I said before you don't see so many finishes labelled as from mount as fighters usually give their back and neck for the choke.

That mechanic isn't going to be replicated in game because there are too many variables.what we have is a strong mount position that reflects the dangers that the position poses in real life.

Nah. It's because strikes from mount to finish a fight are way more effective than submissions. Guys aren't posturing up and landing 5 clean punches and KO'ing people tho. I know Lewis got the finish in mount but I can't remember how it got there and how much he had to hit him. Bear in mind Lewis is not only a HW with a ton of power but also a guy known for his deadly GnP.

Blocking 3 strikes and transitioning doesn't always work against guys with good top game stats. And bear in mind you're only really going to play against guys with good top game stats when someone plays that way.

I've already agreed that rolling to your back and getting choked is much more common. I'll have to get some more time in and see how I feel after more experience in the position for that aspect of things.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: So After Several Days With The Game... Is Top Mount OP?

it's a Z-Guard or half butterfly. Basically half mount with the outside foot in a butterfly/x guard position

It's half way between mount and half guard.

You have a leg in, but you're still essentially mounted and GnP is about the same as mount.