You CANNOT tell me UFC 3's ground game is better than Undisputed 3!!!

[1212headkick]

Re: You CANNOT tell me UFC 3's ground game is better than Undisputed 3!!!

I know some of the people who worked on UD3, and I worked in video games for ~10 years.

It wouldn't take a full development cycle. It would take significant time, and development, but actually mo-capping everything is part of the problem with EA UFC. It's quicker, and maybe cheaper to do, but it gives you a bunch of stock animations that are very hard to alter in a way that doesn't look jarring.

A lot of the animations in the Undisputed series were hand made. This takes longer but gives you more control over everything.

There's no comparison here. UD3's grappling is vastly superior to UFC3's grappling. It's a no-brainer. You can defend UFC3's grappling all you want, but you'd simply be incorrect.
THQ had a more limited budget than EA UFC's team. They didn't even have a mocap studio.

Obviously doing this for UFC 3 is not going to happen, but it should be demanded for UFC 4.
Leave the striking as it is in 3, add some new stuff, sure, but if the grappling in UFC 4 isn't at least as deep as Undisputed 3, they're dropping the ball big time.

how long do you reckon it'd take? would like to hear more about your connection to ud3. they did use mocap though thats a fact

[aholbert32]

Re: You CANNOT tell me UFC 3's ground game is better than Undisputed 3!!!

I know some of the people who worked on UD3, and I worked in video games for ~10 years.

It wouldn't take a full development cycle. It would take significant time, and development, but actually mo-capping everything is part of the problem with EA UFC. It's quicker, and maybe cheaper to do, but it gives you a bunch of stock animations that are very hard to alter in a way that doesn't look jarring.

A lot of the animations in the Undisputed series were hand made. This takes longer but gives you more control over everything.

There's no comparison here. UD3's grappling is vastly superior to UFC3's grappling. It's a no-brainer. You can defend UFC3's grappling all you want, but you'd simply be incorrect.
THQ had a more limited budget than EA UFC's team. They didn't even have a mocap studio.

Obviously doing this for UFC 3 is not going to happen, but it should be demanded for UFC 4.
Leave the striking as it is in 3, add some new stuff, sure, but if the grappling in UFC 4 isn't at least as deep as Undisputed 3, they're dropping the ball big time.

It would if you mocapped...and EA seems to prefer mocap (for all of its current sports games) so it would take a full development cycle. That was the point I made. If you think animation would be a better approach, cool. It just has nothing to do with the statement I made.

What's interesting in my statement "defends UFC3's grappling" other than "its not universal that everyone wants UD3's grappling added to the game."
Thats a statement of fact. Its seconded by people who are posted in this thread.

Some prefer UD3's entire system. Some prefer UFC3's system. Some would like a mix.

[aholbert32]

Re: You CANNOT tell me UFC 3's ground game is better than Undisputed 3!!!

I've been thinking the same thing. I'm not a developer, but sometimes I watch the EXACT same raising of the hand, or introduction by Bruce Buffer, and I wonder if they could've made an algorithm that made slight variations instead of mo capping it and locking it down.

It looks great on trailers, but after you play the game a few times you feel like you've seen the same takedown or guardpass clip a billion times before.

or they could just mo cap more takedowns or raising of the hands (FYI, there is more than one animation for that currently in the game).

Thats why I'm in favor of just adding more to it. I disagree that UD3's system was better when it comes to mechanics. I 100% agree that UD3's system had more depth. The only way to match that depth is to add more takedown animations, clinch animations, positions, sweeps, ground strike and reversal animations....on top of what we currently have.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: You CANNOT tell me UFC 3's ground game is better than Undisputed 3

We wouldnt have as many positions/ transitions because a lot of their resources would be spent creating the ones that already exist. I dont think you realize how many grappling oriented animations already exist.

I an aware that people were asking for a new grappling system for UFC3 which is honestly ridiculous. No other sport game has changed as much game to game as this UFC series has.

That said we can agree to disagree. I think scrapping our current system would be a huge waste of time. Especially for UD’s when the few things UD did better could just be added to the current system.

Again, they rebuilt a striking system with a combo system on top of that, the gave us a combo system to go on top of that new striking system...I don't get your concern. I'm more than sure they can handle rebuilding a grapple system with new animations which would pretty much come with the territory.

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[aholbert32]

Re: You CANNOT tell me UFC 3's ground game is better than Undisputed 3

Again, they rebuilt a striking system with a combo system on top of that, the gave us a combo system to go on top of that new striking system...I don't get your concern. I'm more than sure they can handle rebuilding a grapple system with new animations which would pretty much come with the territory.

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They could but we would likely run into the same scenario as we have with UFC 3. Pretty much nothing significant was added to grappling during the pre-launch development cycle because all of the time was focused on striking.

So with UFC 4, people would complain about how striking pretty much was the same as UFC 3.

I'd rather they just add to both. I think the foundations are solid. They just need to add more on top of that.

[MacGowan]

Re: You CANNOT tell me UFC 3's ground game is better than Undisputed 3!!!

or they could just mo cap more takedowns or raising of the hands (FYI, there is more than one animation for that currently in the game).

Right, but that was kinda what I think he was getting at, or at least what I'm getting at anyways.

So now we mo-cap 4 new animations per takedown. that's
single leg - x5
double leg - x5
ankle pick - x5
the zabit one - x5

4 new animations for hand raising
left side - x5
right side - x5

4 new animations per introduction
Conor - x5
Khabib - x5
DC - x5
Jones - x5
etc, etc

you can start to see how the issue compounds. imstead of a system that perhaps is less about mo cap and more about the inputs you add to it (maybe only mo cap taunts that can be used by every fighter during walk in/introduction/official announcement. that would be a lot less work).

Take the striking, it can often feel like you're making your own style in the way you mix in the inputs. You can clearly tell I'm fighting by the way I use my fighter. I actively fight the way I do in real life (or try to). The combinations feel less finite there and the striking is fun and fluid.

The grappling however can often feel like a Quicktime event video on a loop.

[Nekrotik]

Re: You CANNOT tell me UFC 3's ground game is better than Undisputed 3!!!

how long do you reckon it'd take? would like to hear more about your connection to ud3. they did use mocap though thats a fact

I worked with a few people who had worked for THQ on UD3, different people and in different teams. A couple of QA guys and developers as well.

I was also approached to work on UD3, but there were rumors that THQ was in a rough spot financially, and, knowing how the game industry works, I decided it would be too risky to go there (ironically, at about the same time as THQ folded, the company I was at had massive layoffs too).

From what I heard, almost everyone on the team trained - they hired testers specifically if they trained in martial arts. One of my friends was VERY heavily training in BJJ, and provided a lot of feedback on the ground game.
He didn't design it, but did point out inconsistencies or problems with it a lot.

They did use mocap, but a lot of it was handmade. Some of the signature strikes, for example, as they couldn't get all the actual fighters in the mocap studio.
A lot of the ground animations were hand made.

There were also a ton of bugs that made it to launch and beyond. Unfortunately they had to rush to meet deadlines and the budget was pretty low.

I don't know how things work at EA, but if I were to make an estimate, based on my experience...it could be possible to take the current animations, add new ones and create control mapping to add things like ground sways, guard holding/blocking, ground rocks pretty easily.
The problem isn't technical as much as it is design, I think.

Best guess - if they did focus primarily on developing the ground game without touching the standup too much, I'd say it'd take 6-8 months to develop, maybe another 4-8 to test and balance correctly. Maybe less, maybe more - depending on how many developers and QA they have.

[Zeta Reticulan1]

Re: You CANNOT tell me UFC 3's ground game is better than Undisputed 3!!!

Uh huh. Anyway, I hate when people say they only liked certain aspects. The whole UD3 ground game is just better than the current one. The ground just needs to be reworked period. Casuals shouldn’t have to memorize denial directions or get owned. The ground needs a much more simple entry point to entice a larger audience. More people understanding the ground game = more sales.


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[Solid_Altair]

Re: You CANNOT tell me UFC 3's ground game is better than Undisputed 3!!!

Have yall watched GPD's GDC presentation about UFC 2?

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: You CANNOT tell me UFC 3's ground game is better than Undisputed 3

They could but we would likely run into the same scenario as we have with UFC 3. Pretty much nothing significant was added to grappling during the pre-launch development cycle because all of the time was focused on striking.

So with UFC 4, people would complain about how striking pretty much was the same as UFC 3.

I'd rather they just add to both. I think the foundations are solid. They just need to add more on top of that.

Here's what I'm hoping as far as grappling changes, and I don't know if this would be considered revamping the entire grappling system or not, but...

At the very least, I'd take slightly faster meters that would be unseen.

Adding more transitions (major & minor).

More grappling animations.

Struggle mechanic for takedowns.

Implementing a bigger emphasis on strike-to-pass based grappling that also applies to submissions.

Changing subs to be more player vs player based and to take stamina into account while locked in submission.


I don't know how much of this can be done by just adding on to what they have now, but I feel like these are key elements that will make grappling and the overall ground game better. For me, striking itself doesn't need to be rebuilt, I don't expect it to be touched much...it's everything else around it like footwork, the combo system, ratings (like not having separate kick & punch speed) & vulnerability that need fixing, as well as a few things with stamina which seem to be an ongoing WIP. But grappling needs the most work right now along with the clinch.

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[NEWSS]

Re: You CANNOT tell me UFC 3's ground game is better than Undisputed 3!!!

I worked with a few people who had worked for THQ on UD3, different people and in different teams. A couple of QA guys and developers as well.

Weren't the developers from the japanese Yukes?

[Martyzz]

Re: You CANNOT tell me UFC 3's ground game is better than Undisputed 3!!!

I could definitely be wrong here, but my theory as to why the punches look like they have force behind them and are actually connecting in UD3 is because they werent mocapped the same away as UFC3. Look at the ground and pound for example, in EA UFC it looks like they are in their mocap suits throwing weak shots and pulling the punches back as soon as the punch gets close to the head. In UD3 it looks like its all hand made and thats why it looks so vicious, it looks like somebody is actually getting their face punched in.

Doesnt matter if its standing or on the ground, in EA UFC it always looks like the fighters are pulling the punches back as soon as they connect. Doesnt look good.

[rabbitfistssaipailo]

Re: You CANNOT tell me UFC 3's ground game is better than Undisputed 3!!!

Hmmm

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[bmlimo]

Re: You CANNOT tell me UFC 3's ground game is better than Undisputed 3!!!

To me grappling have 3 issues that kills imersion

-the whole system is based on the defense... doesnt matter what you do, to have sucess in 90% of the cases you have to deny

-system based on reflexes... who gets the better conection/its adapted to the lag has a huge advantage. also turns the game in a stalling/fakes competition.

-lack of a real gnp, with a good gnp deny should be drastically nerfed on top and, ground would be more based on pass to strike, strike to pass instead of deny to pass, pass to deny.

[VitoBurrito]

Re: You CANNOT tell me UFC 3's ground game is better than Undisputed 3!!!

I dug out my Xbox 360 and played ud3 for the first time in at least 3 years. I can’t believe I forgot how awesome it is. What if thq never went away and they were on undisputed 7 or 8, it makes me want to cry,