What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

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  • UFCBlackbelt
    MVP
    • Jan 2018
    • 1067

    #46
    Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

    Originally posted by ragreynolds
    I think there should be an average leg and body health worked out. So say we’re working with the 80-100 star range again, let’s say 90 is the average leg or body health that any person has.

    If someone has been shown to be susceptible to leg kicks or has not been able to take many, then they should have a rating that is under 90. If someone has shown that they have durable legs, then they should have a rating over 90. Coming from a Muay Thai or say a Taekwondo background should perhaps also give a little boost on top of the base 90. Maybe the base should instead be 85, but Muay Thai or Taekwondo guys start at 88 or 90.

    I’d rate body health along the same lines. Start with a baseline that everyone has, then look at their fights and see if they do better than most do against body shots, or whether they fold easily against them. Adjust from there. If there is no strong evidence either way, then the fighter should be left at the average/baseline value.

    I’d apply this average/baseline method to most stats in the game quite honestly. I think it’s the best way to fairy work them out. Set everyone to 90 all around and then lower or raise each individual stat between 80 and 100 based on actual evidence. If there is no evidence of a fighter being better than average or worse than average in a certain area, then he or she should be left at the baseline and not changed from it.

    I would like to see a wider range used though. Even if it was just an extra 10 so we could see 70-100 instead of 80-100. I think it would help differentiate fighter more since we’d have more specifity in the ratings. Finally, a bit off topic, but I’d like to see many more rating categories added. I want power split up for hands and feet and not lumped together. I’d also like for those individual hands and feet to be rated instead of just having “hand power” and “feet power”. I’d love the same thing to happen for strike speed. I’d also even love to see more specific grappling related stats. Currently we have “bottom” and I’d like to see that split up some more. Just because someone has a dangerous guard, that doesn’t mean they’re great when held in side control. I’d like to see stats for positions, although that may be too much to ask for. I’d like stats for different types of takedowns though, rather than just one single takedown stat. Guys with great double legs don’t necessarily have good single legs, and vice versa.

    This is a lot like my previous post and I agree 100% this is how stats should be done

    ----

    We start with an Average-based approach to fighter ratings.

    80 is the lowest while 100 being the highest for any given stats.

    90 is the natural average, these are just numbers I am using for now, they can be any set that has an average, max and min.
    Just note, that 100 would be very rare and 80 would likewise be very rare. Consider them outliers.


    So this is how we would carry out a new fighter's ratings.

    STEP 1: [Average] We apply an average across the board to the fighter. This should feel like a truly average UFC fighter, well rounded but not too great or too bad at anything.

    STEP 2 [Credentials/Microadjustments] We apply small adjustments to the fighter based on their pre-mma credentials (if they have high wrestling credentials we boost their wrestling stats slightly depending on how high level and reduce their striking slightly). These are microadjustments between 2~4 pts because these skills don't always fully transfer well

    Think of these biases as "Classes" in your classic rpg, with weaknesses and strengths but not too extensive because...

    Step 3: [PERFORMANCES] We implement major stat changes based on performances in the cage, who they fought and what happened in the fight is critical. If fighter A ate a flush shot from Dan Henderson and wasn't stunned - well that is far more impressive than taking one punch from Bisping. Or beating a nobody from a weak organization would be less impressive than a UFC champ. Did they just complete a 5 round fight? Did they gas out in 2 rounds?

    Through this process we eliminate biases for favorite/hyped fighters, just because a fighter is a champion wont necessarily mean they have beyond average chin, if their career didn't involve them taking many shots, that information should remain average. Maybe their footwork and blocking was good enough to avoid those shots. Likewise, just because a fighter is a low ranked fighter doesn't mean their chin should be below average, in fact it's more likely to be average considering they are less likely to have been KO'd early in their careers.

    We give each fighters real weaknesses and strengths regardless of rank, so that if I had a lower ranked fighter I could still develop a real gameplan to beat a higher ranked fighter by exploiting his/her weaknesses and enforcing my strengths.

    I think we are almost there, we are miles ahead and continuing the Dynamic stat changes helps a ton because fighters evolve/show new holes each fight.

    This requires many more hours of studying each fight and it's a harder system to implement, but it can be done. Madden had an entire system of deep analysis for its original stats.
    ------------
    As for your initial question, leg strength/body strength should relate to how well you block+accept damage. Think of it more as "Body weakness, leg weakness". Cerrone has a body weakness, Diaz bros have leg weaknesses.

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    • Phillyboi207
      Banned
      • Apr 2012
      • 3159

      #47
      Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

      Originally posted by Good Grappler
      Very, very smart.

      In a nutshell: leg health should be about heart. Because you can tough through leg damage. A liver shot will shut you down no matter how tough you are, whereas you can tough out a beaten leg.
      I thought a guy’s nerve can literally get hit and mess up their leg

      Cejudo round 1 vs MM in their rematch or Michael Chandler vs Brent.

      Michael Chandler is a wild SOB and I cant imagine pain is what kept him from fighting on both legs. Hell he was swinging while on one foot lol

      I hope they change it next year so that level 1 moves do less damage/come out slower.

      I think most guys cant really destroy legs like a Barbosa
      Last edited by Phillyboi207; 11-07-2018, 12:02 PM.

      Comment

      • aholbert32
        (aka Alberto)
        • Jul 2002
        • 33106

        #48
        Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

        Originally posted by rabbitfistssaipailo
        @aholbert ...lemme ask you something out of all the champions on the various champion editions of UFC 3 ...how many of them did mo cap for EA ?

        Sent from my Infinix X604 using Operation Sports mobile app
        Zero. I know DJ came to Vancouver but I dont think he mocapped. Conor did not do Mocap.

        Comment

        • 1212headkick
          Banned
          • Mar 2018
          • 1823

          #49
          Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

          Originally posted by aholbert32
          Zero. I know DJ came to Vancouver but I dont think he mocapped. Conor did not do Mocap.
          Id like conor to do his own mocap next game would be worth the money

          Comment

          • GoDucks1224
            MVP
            • Jul 2012
            • 2623

            #50
            Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

            Originally posted by aholbert32
            Won’t likely happen.


            Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


            [emoji43][emoji379]

            Comment

            • ZombieRommel
              EA Game Changer
              • Apr 2016
              • 659

              #51
              Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

              Originally posted by Phillyboi207
              Oh im referring to Nate rocking him at WW

              Hell Nate even rocked him to the body.

              But Conor’s an exception thanks to uncle Dana
              Conor has never been finished with strikes, either KO or TKO. Got dropped by Nate but was still aware enough to keep fighting even though he got tapped out. Dropped by Khabib but instantly recovered. Getting dropped isn't the sign of a weak chin. Getting KO'd repeatedly is. See: Arlovski, Overeem, Chuck Liddell.

              I wouldn't call Nate pillow-fisted. He throws shots that are intentionally not all full-power to keep up a pressure wall and preserve stamina. But the concussive shots add up over time. It's not like he's trying with all his might to put people away and failing. His brother Nick has 13 KO wins out of 26 wins total. They aren't that dissimilar in terms of build. It's just that Nick slightly prefers to finish with a beatdown and Nate rocks dudes and then subs them. It's not like Nate is shooting in, taking people down, and subbing them. He's beating the hell out of them until they more or less give him the sub.

              Someone like Demien Maia is pillow fisted.

              Conor's chin doesn't deserve a nerf based on either the Nate or Khabib fights.

              EDIT: To the point, I do think fighter background should be factored, but it shouldn't tilt things too far in either direction. If so-and-so has a muay thai background, give him/her better leg health. Give a wrestler worse leg health.

              But don't tilt things unreasonably high or low UNLESS there is a reason to do so.

              This is why I disagreed 100% with Saki's 80 OTB stat. We have never seen him get utterly murked on the ground. An 80 OTB indicates that someone is WORSE than CM Punk (who has an 83) on the ground. Saki's OTB should have been around 86-88. Assume it isn't elite (because he is mainly a striker), but don't assume it is trash either.

              I also think the skillset of the opponent re: the domination should be factored in. Khabib controlled Conor pretty well on the ground, but... it's Khabib. Conor managed to survive until the 4th and stuffed some takedowns against the best grappler in MMA (aside from Askren maybe). His TDD or ground stats shouldn't be dramatically lowered because of that.

              Stats should only tilt hard in one direction if there is a pattern. Nate Diaz gets taken down by pretty much every wrestler. That's a pattern. Giving him bad TDD is okay. But I think the devs / Aholbert are already looking more at patterns than at single performances anyway.
              Last edited by ZombieRommel; 11-08-2018, 12:35 PM.
              ZombieRommel on YouTube - UFC3 coverage has begun!

              Comment

              • aholbert32
                (aka Alberto)
                • Jul 2002
                • 33106

                #52
                Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

                It’s kind of contradictory to say that fighters background should play a role in their stats and then argue that someone with bjj training (punk) should have a lower bottom game than someone who has no background and has never grappled in a fight (saki).



                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

                Comment

                • ZombieRommel
                  EA Game Changer
                  • Apr 2016
                  • 659

                  #53
                  Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

                  Originally posted by aholbert32
                  It’s kind of contradictory to say that fighters background should play a role in their stats and then argue that someone with bjj training (punk) should have a lower bottom game than someone who has no background and has never grappled in a fight (saki).



                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
                  The difference is we've seen Punk get utterly dominated on the ground and we haven't seen the same happen to Saki. So we have visual evidence that Punk's ground game sucks and no basis to say the same for Saki. We can't assume his ground game is great either, but we shouldn't assume it's trash just because.

                  If Punk's fights never went to the ground I'd be fine with him having a higher OTB than Saki based on training alone.
                  ZombieRommel on YouTube - UFC3 coverage has begun!

                  Comment

                  • Phillyboi207
                    Banned
                    • Apr 2012
                    • 3159

                    #54
                    Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

                    Just to clarify I never said Conor has a weak chin. Him beig given a granite chin at LW/WW (especially WW) doesnt make a lot of sense because he’a only shown the granite chin at FW. One thing I’d really like to see changed is guys having the same health stats across divisions.

                    I think physical stats should be capped per weight class. Taking bodyshots from a FW doesnt mean much in comparison to guys 25 lbs heavier.

                    Right now everyone gets the same boosts/decreases across weight classes (Assuming ratings are identical) when in reality weight cuts affect each fighter differently.

                    Comment

                    • aholbert32
                      (aka Alberto)
                      • Jul 2002
                      • 33106

                      #55
                      Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

                      Originally posted by ZombieRommel
                      The difference is we've seen Punk get utterly dominated on the ground and we haven't seen the same happen to Saki. So we have visual evidence that Punk's ground game sucks and no basis to say the same for Saki. We can't assume his ground game is great either, but we shouldn't assume it's trash just because.

                      If Punk's fights never went to the ground I'd be fine with him having a higher OTB than Saki based on training alone.
                      We dont have visual evidence that his ground game sucks. We have evidence that he got out grappled by a fellow MMA fighter. We also have evidence that Punk has trained in BJJ.

                      We have no evidence of Saki's skills in grappling. He doesnt have a background in it. He hasnt grappled in an MMA fight. To assume that he has better skills than someone who has trained is ridiculous.

                      To be honest, the only reason this is an issue is because Saki has a really cool moveset and skills when it comes to standup and you are pissed that when you play ranked and face a Cormier or another grappler, its difficult to get up from the bottom. We used the same or reasoning for other fighters and I havent heard any complaints about them from you or anyone else.

                      Comment

                      • Phillyboi207
                        Banned
                        • Apr 2012
                        • 3159

                        #56
                        Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

                        To be fair CM Punk deserves 70s/60s across all ratings outside of Heart/toughness/Chin/Body

                        Btw Aholbert are you planning on making of these for other ratings or can this become the topic for discussing how we’d want ratings done overall?

                        Comment

                        • aholbert32
                          (aka Alberto)
                          • Jul 2002
                          • 33106

                          #57
                          Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

                          Originally posted by Phillyboi207
                          To be fair CM Punk deserves 70s/60s across all ratings outside of Heart/toughness/Chin/Body

                          Btw Aholbert are you planning on making of these for other ratings or can this become the topic for discussing how we’d want ratings done overall?
                          You would laugh if you saw the ratings originally proposed for Punk.

                          To be honest, I'm looking for specific input so I'm gonna make another thread about another ratings area. When it comes to most of the categories, I'm happy with the process we use to determine the stats. The only ones that bug me are leg strength, body strength and the stamina stats (thats more because I hate that grappling and striking stamina are split.

                          Comment

                          • UFCBlackbelt
                            MVP
                            • Jan 2018
                            • 1067

                            #58
                            Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

                            Originally posted by ZombieRommel
                            Conor has never been finished with strikes, either KO or TKO. Got dropped by Nate but was still aware enough to keep fighting even though he got tapped out. Dropped by Khabib but instantly recovered. Getting dropped isn't the sign of a weak chin. Getting KO'd repeatedly is. See: Arlovski, Overeem, Chuck Liddell.

                            I wouldn't call Nate pillow-fisted. He throws shots that are intentionally not all full-power to keep up a pressure wall and preserve stamina. But the concussive shots add up over time. It's not like he's trying with all his might to put people away and failing. His brother Nick has 13 KO wins out of 26 wins total. They aren't that dissimilar in terms of build. It's just that Nick slightly prefers to finish with a beatdown and Nate rocks dudes and then subs them. It's not like Nate is shooting in, taking people down, and subbing them. He's beating the hell out of them until they more or less give him the sub.

                            Someone like Demien Maia is pillow fisted.

                            Conor's chin doesn't deserve a nerf based on either the Nate or Khabib fights.

                            EDIT: To the point, I do think fighter background should be factored, but it shouldn't tilt things too far in either direction. If so-and-so has a muay thai background, give him/her better leg health. Give a wrestler worse leg health.

                            But don't tilt things unreasonably high or low UNLESS there is a reason to do so.

                            This is why I disagreed 100% with Saki's 80 OTB stat. We have never seen him get utterly murked on the ground. An 80 OTB indicates that someone is WORSE than CM Punk (who has an 83) on the ground. Saki's OTB should have been around 86-88. Assume it isn't elite (because he is mainly a striker), but don't assume it is trash either.

                            I also think the skillset of the opponent re: the domination should be factored in. Khabib controlled Conor pretty well on the ground, but... it's Khabib. Conor managed to survive until the 4th and stuffed some takedowns against the best grappler in MMA (aside from Askren maybe). His TDD or ground stats shouldn't be dramatically lowered because of that.

                            Stats should only tilt hard in one direction if there is a pattern. Nate Diaz gets taken down by pretty much every wrestler. That's a pattern. Giving him bad TDD is okay. But I think the devs / Aholbert are already looking more at patterns than at single performances anyway.
                            Conor having his WW chin stat is in no way justifiable. It's insane to think that a guy who has been dropped by two lightweights has one of the best chins in the entire welterweight. Could you even imagine what would happen if he took a shot from Woodley like he did from Khabib?

                            It's just insane. His chin is only justified in FW. At LW he should have an average chin, same at WW. (90)

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                            • RomeroXVII
                              MVP
                              • May 2018
                              • 1663

                              #59
                              Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

                              Originally posted by ZombieRommel
                              Conor has never been finished with strikes, either KO or TKO. Got dropped by Nate but was still aware enough to keep fighting even though he got tapped out. Dropped by Khabib but instantly recovered. Getting dropped isn't the sign of a weak chin. Getting KO'd repeatedly is. See: Arlovski, Overeem, Chuck Liddell.

                              I wouldn't call Nate pillow-fisted. He throws shots that are intentionally not all full-power to keep up a pressure wall and preserve stamina. But the concussive shots add up over time. It's not like he's trying with all his might to put people away and failing. His brother Nick has 13 KO wins out of 26 wins total. They aren't that dissimilar in terms of build. It's just that Nick slightly prefers to finish with a beatdown and Nate rocks dudes and then subs them. It's not like Nate is shooting in, taking people down, and subbing them. He's beating the hell out of them until they more or less give him the sub.

                              Someone like Demien Maia is pillow fisted.

                              Conor's chin doesn't deserve a nerf based on either the Nate or Khabib fights.

                              EDIT: To the point, I do think fighter background should be factored, but it shouldn't tilt things too far in either direction. If so-and-so has a muay thai background, give him/her better leg health. Give a wrestler worse leg health.

                              But don't tilt things unreasonably high or low UNLESS there is a reason to do so.

                              This is why I disagreed 100% with Saki's 80 OTB stat. We have never seen him get utterly murked on the ground. An 80 OTB indicates that someone is WORSE than CM Punk (who has an 83) on the ground. Saki's OTB should have been around 86-88. Assume it isn't elite (because he is mainly a striker), but don't assume it is trash either.

                              I also think the skillset of the opponent re: the domination should be factored in. Khabib controlled Conor pretty well on the ground, but... it's Khabib. Conor managed to survive until the 4th and stuffed some takedowns against the best grappler in MMA (aside from Askren maybe). His TDD or ground stats shouldn't be dramatically lowered because of that.

                              Stats should only tilt hard in one direction if there is a pattern. Nate Diaz gets taken down by pretty much every wrestler. That's a pattern. Giving him bad TDD is okay. But I think the devs / Aholbert are already looking more at patterns than at single performances anyway.
                              With the way Conor illegally kneed him from bottom, grabbed on his shorts, grabbed the inside of Khabib's gloves and stuck his toes in the fence not to get taken down, and the illegal elbows to the back of the head, his TDD deserves to be the way it is. There are gifs literally showing every moment that Conor played dirty to try not to get taken down, especially in the third round.

                              Conor's chin at Welterweight is unjustifiable.
                              So are his inflated super CAF leg and body stats in FW/LW but aholbert and I already had the discussion about that in another thread and the dilemma sucks since he's the poster boy, but the poster boy got beat down. I always felt the body and leg health should be in the 90-92 range for him.
                              EA Sports UFC GameChanger
                              PSN: RomeroXVII
                              ESFL UFC 4 PS4 Champion
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                              • WarMMA
                                MVP
                                • Apr 2016
                                • 4612

                                #60
                                Re: What the hell do you guys want? (Part 1)

                                Originally posted by RomeroXVII
                                With the way Conor illegally kneed him from bottom, grabbed on his shorts, grabbed the inside of Khabib's gloves and stuck his toes in the fence not to get taken down, and the illegal elbows to the back of the head, his TDD deserves to be the way it is. There are gifs literally showing every moment that Conor played dirty to try not to get taken down, especially in the third round.

                                Conor's chin at Welterweight is unjustifiable.
                                So are his inflated super CAF leg and body stats in FW/LW but aholbert and I already had the discussion about that in another thread and the dilemma sucks since he's the poster boy, but the poster boy got beat down. I always felt the body and leg health should be in the 90-92 range for him.
                                I'm sure some of Conor's stats are cuz he's cover boy and Uncle Dana's golden boy. We're lucky the UFC didn't demand they give him the highest rating for everything lol. And yh his WW chin is ridiculous. He does have a good chin, but i'm sure it's not the same at WW. Idc what anyone says, I think most heavy hitters at WW would either put Conor to sleep or drop him if they landed flush. If he's getting rocked by Diaz, imagine a guy like Woodley hitting him smh. If anything, Diaz should probably have the most ridiculous chin at WW.

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