Why can people play like terminators

[aholbert32]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

You could state the arguments the 'elite' make rather than just stating they have a stance. It's unsubstantiated. Just saying they disagree without mentioning the reasons why gets us nowhere.

Ive stated the arguments time and time again. ****, they have too. Its not my argument and most people are aware of what their argument is and why they feel that way.

I'm not going to relitigate an argument that isnt mine. With that said, if you want to pretend that the elite and others dont disagree with your (and some of the people in this forum) views on where stamina should be....thats fine.

Finally, you dont have to convince me (I think there is no solution to this issue other than different stamina modes) or even the elite players. You have to convince the devs and they dont appear to be convinced.

This argument has been made since the ****ing beta and they havent made many of the specific stamina changes requested here like increasing the stamina drain on blocked strikes. What should be also clear to you is that the devs dont seem to be scared of making stamina changes (they increased the stamina drain on consecutive failed takedowns). They just dont appear to be willing to make the specific changes this forum wants.

Convince them.

[aholbert32]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

I find this argument interesting because while I agree you should have to put the work in with the defensive tools, surely you should also have to put in the work to have good stamina management on the offensive?
I'm not sure where I stand on this subject myself. I would hate for the game to be fully 'realistic' because lets be honest we've all watched absolute stinkers and at the end of the day this is a video game for fun. At the same time, it's quite funny seeing HWs gas irl after 15 or so strikes in the first round but I've comfortably hit 200+ fine on UFC 3.

I guess the counterargument is that it doesnt take much skill to slow your output. I'm an average player. My timing sucks when it comes to head movement but it could be improved if I played a lot more. On the flip side, I could manage a fighter's stamina well simply by knowing who im using and slowing down my output.

[Haz____]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

Abert, no disrespect but you speak with a sense of finality, as if there was zero reason to even have this discussion.

There's mutliple threads about this topic open currently, with active discussions taking place in each. There is no consensus at all.

Even amongst the elite players, they themselves dont even agree on how a change in stamina would effect the game.

Tbh, there hasn't been a single solid arguement actually made in favor of the unrealistic stamina, and when Good Grappler laid out a very detailed and compossed response to Monkey, asking for a detailed explanation of how he perseves this change could effect the game, instead of responding and furthering the discussion, Monkey just took a personal shot at me instead, and completely ignored Grappler. Which is a diversionary tactic I've seen used repeatedly to derail conversations.


There is a very active discussion happening on all sides here.

[johnmangala]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

Ive stated the arguments time and time again. ****, they have too. Its not my argument and most people are aware of what their argument is and why they feel that way.

I'm not going to relitigate an argument that isnt mine. With that said, if you want to pretend that the elite and others dont disagree with your (and some of the people in this forum) views on where stamina should be....thats fine.

Finally, you dont have to convince me (I think there is no solution to this issue other than different stamina modes) or even the elite players. You have to convince the devs and they dont appear to be convinced.

This argument has been made since the ****ing beta and they havent made many of the specific stamina changes like increasing the stamina drain on blocked strikes. What should be also clear to you is that the devs dont seem to be scared of making stamina changes (they increased the stamina drain on consecutive failed takedowns). They just dont appear to be willing to make the specific changes this forum wants.

Convince them.

I don't mind trying to convince anyone but there is no one here besides you defending it right now. As such, I laid out the argument accordingly. The argument isn't directed at you but at readers in general- you are the just only one here that is engaging the argument atm.

How are we supposed to convince anyone if they are not here to be convinced or state the reasons why not, other than just laying out the rebuttal here for anyone to see like I have done.

It doesn't take much skill currently to manage stamina, stamina is very forgiving for strikes. Unless you actively evade them with riskier defenses like lunges or head movement than simply blocking.

It takes more skill to have to manage stamina than not have to that much like now. It also takes more skill to evade than to throw strikes in this game.

The strikes already have too high accuracy and it is easy to rock people. This is skewed on top of having such forgiving strike stamina. Footwork should be more effective at evading. It is far more risky to use lunges/head movement to evade than just blocking or to throw strikes.

I wouldn't even mind if stamina remained the same but had the defense reflect reality more. Footwork should have it's place as the primary form of defense, rather the blocking. The tracking or window to evade can be more forgiving rather than having the meta be skewed one way or the other. It should be balanced.

Or just have strikes cost more stamina/blocking drain more from the attacker, so regardless the same effect is achieved in trying to balance realistic strike output.

It is odd that grappling has such punishing stamina but striking remains disproportionately forgiving. Grappling is more taxing than striking, but strike stamina in this game is significantly less punishing than reality.

[aholbert32]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

I don't mind trying to convince anyone but there is no one here besides you defending it right now. As such, I laid out the argument accordingly. The argument isn't directed at you but at readers in general- you are the just only one here that is engaging the argument atm.

I keep having this issue with you and I dont know how to avoid it other than to put you on ignore. I present a statement/position and make it clear that its not my position. I'm doing that to make people aware that there is another side. I state it time and time again that its not my position. Yet you treat me stating someone else's position as "defending it".

I'm not defending it. I actually think both sides in this situation are flat out wrong and each would make the game worse.

I think leaving stamina as it is makes the game unrealistic and I'm not a fan of that. Thats why I play with stamina sliders changed offline. I also think that things like increasing the stamina on blocked punches will lead to more people hiding behind block simply to gas people. I've also heard the proposed solution of making block weaker and that has its own downsides.

My only solution is online sliders or a sim stamina mode online but even that comes with its own issues.

Thats my only proposed solution. I dont care to debate because I already have multiple times. What I do wish you would stop doing is making it seem like im defending a position that I'm not.

You want to convince the devs?

Make a thread that clearly presents arguments that casual fans wont have an issue with increased stamina and fighters gassing early. That shows that elite fighters concerns about people hiding behind block are unfounded. That decreasing the block wont lead to more KOs and make it hard as hell to ever have decisions.

Stop acting like you dont know the counterpoints. You ****ing do. They are all over this forum and they are some of the reasons why you guys havent gotten what you want.

[TheShizNo1]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

You want to convince the devs?

Make a thread that clearly presents arguments that casual fans wont have an issue with increased stamina and fighters gassing early. That shows that elite fighters concerns about people hiding behind block are unfounded. That decreasing the block wont lead to more KOs and make it hard as hell to ever have decisions.

Well, that would involve a thread actually staying on topic...

Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app

[aholbert32]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

Abert, no disrespect but you speak with a sense of finality, as if there was zero reason to even have this discussion.

There's mutliple threads about this topic open currently, with active discussions taking place in each. There is no consensus at all.

Even amongst the elite players, they themselves dont even agree on how a change in stamina would effect the game.

Tbh, there hasn't been a single solid arguement actually made in favor of the unrealistic stamina, and when Good Grappler laid out a very detailed and compossed response to Monkey, asking for a detailed explanation of how he perseves this change could effect the game, instead of responding and furthering the discussion, Monkey just took a personal shot at me instead, and completely ignored Grappler. Which is a diversionary tactic I've seen used repeatedly to derail conversations.


There is a very active discussion happening on all sides here.

No I dont. I made it clear what I've seen. I've had long discussions with multiple elite players about this issue. I've talked to the devs about many of the stamina changes you have suggested and been presented the downsides. I've seen convos in ESFL chats and in the discord about this a while back.

I come into this debate well informed and have seen all sides. As you should know, OS isnt the end all/be all of conversation about this game. There are plenty of people who dont want this game to be anymore sim or realistic than it is. I dont agree with those people but im aware of what they want.

Having a active discussion here doesnt hold the weight that you think it does because this forum doesnt represent the entire EA UFC community. It represents an important part of it but still just a part. So just because the folks here at OS want something and what they want is realistic doesnt mean that the rest of the buying public wants that.

To be honest, the fact that this community (which doesnt include a ton of casual or elite players) cant come to a consensus is kind of telling.

[johnmangala]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

I keep having this issue with you and I dont know how to avoid it other than to put you on ignore. I present a statement/position and make it clear that its not my position. I'm doing that to make people aware that there is another side. I state it time and time again that its not my position. Yet you treat me stating someone else's position as "defending it".

I'm not defending it. I actually think both sides in this situation are flat out wrong and each would make the game worse.

I think leaving stamina as it is makes the game unrealistic and I'm not a fan of that. Thats why I play with stamina sliders changed offline. I also think that things like increasing the stamina on blocked punches will lead to more people hiding behind block simply to gas people. I've also heard the proposed solution of making block weaker and that has its own downsides.

My only solution is online sliders or a sim stamina mode online but even that comes with its own issues.

Thats my only proposed solution. I dont care to debate because I already have multiple times. What I do wish you would stop doing is making it seem like im defending a position that I'm not.

You want to convince the devs?

Make a thread that clearly presents arguments that casual fans wont have an issue with increased stamina and fighters gassing early. That shows that elite fighters concerns about people hiding behind block are unfounded. That decreasing the block wont lead to more KOs and make it hard as hell to ever have decisions.

Stop acting like you dont know the counterpoints. You ****ing do. They are all over this forum and they are some of the reasons why you guys havent gotten what you want.

You shouldn't assume that I know all the counterpoints. I don't know what you are specifically referring to unless it is laid out clearly. How can you expect someone to know all the various points made across several threads. There could be more or less points that are relevant, if you are the one to state both sides and raise awareness then it'd be good if you clearly state the arguments that are relevant so one can clearly address each point systematically.

If the last bolded part is the main counter-arguments here are my rebuttals.

1. Casuals may have an issue with increased stamina and fighters gassing early.
- That assumes gassing early, when most just want more realistic stamina. It could entail gassing earlier or gassing later if stamina is managed realistically appropriately. Casuals could have had issues with incorporating all the changes over the patch cycle. I have seen people complain about the driving TDs and spear TDs but that doesn't stop the progress. People are expected to adjust to gameplay changes, so what's the difference in regards to stamina which is perhaps the most crucial aspect of fighting. If the basis is wrong the whole meta is based on wrong parameters leading to inappropriate strategies and tactics becoming common. Like the abundance of body 1212 or bobble head movement before the corrections.

2. That shows that elite fighters concerns about people hiding behind block are unfounded.
- This problem is due to blocking being the primary (safest) form of defense currently. If it were aligned more towards reality- footwork should be safer and the preferred method of defense. Block breaking down easier also helps by making blocking more risky (as it should be), then footwork can also be made to be less risky so the tuning results in more favorable and realistic outputs and outcomes.

3. That decreasing the block wont lead to more KOs and make it hard as hell to ever have decisions.
- It is easy to land strikes, accuracy is very high. That is the main issue from this. If it were harder to land strikes then the chances of being KO'd decreases dramatically and there would be more decisions like reality. This can be achieved by making it easier to evade with footwork- lower the tracking of strikes on moving opponents (so the accuracy stat matters more) and/or increase the window to evade.

[Haz____]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

Well, that would involve a thread actually staying on topic...

Exactly though....

How many of these threads have been made? How many are actively and currently open? Bert said himself it's been brought up over and over since beta.....

Isnt it logical to deduce if the same thing is being brought up over and over and over, consistently, over a long period of time; there might be something to it?


Abert is the one here derailing the discussion, by not allowing a discussion to be had..

[aholbert32]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

Exactly though....

How many of these threads have been made? How many are actively and currently open? Bert said himself it's been brought up over and over since beta.....

Isnt it logical to deduce if the same thing is being brought up over and over and over, consistently, over a long period of time; there might be something to it?


Abert is the one here derailing the discussion, by not allowing a discussion to be had..

How am I stopping discussion? I'm not a mod. I made a point. If making a statement is enough to halt discussion than it wasnt much of a discussion. If you dont think my point is valid, ignore it and continue your original discussion.

And no "bringing up the same thing over and over" doesnt mean there is something to it. It could mean that the same people are bringing up the same **** over and over. You know what might "have something to it"? The fact that the devs have fixed a ton of issues identified on this forum.....but not this one.

You have been banging this drum since the beta and its had zero results. Now you can blame me (I guess for stopping discussion) or the devs but maybe you arent making a compelling argument. Maybe its your fault. Maybe if you made a better argument than some of the elite ranked player game changers or the casual gamers that are game testers, you would get what you want.

[aholbert32]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

You shouldn't assume that I know all the counterpoints. I don't know what you are specifically referring to unless it is laid out clearly. How can you expect someone to know all the various points made across several threads. There could be more or less points that are relevant, if you are the one to state both sides and raise awareness then it'd be good if you clearly state the arguments that are relevant so one can clearly address each point systematically.

If the last bolded part is the main counter-arguments here are my rebuttals.

1. Casuals may have an issue with increased stamina and fighters gassing early.
- That assumes gassing early, when most just want more realistic stamina. It could entail gassing earlier or gassing later if stamina is managed realistically appropriately. Casuals could have had issues with incorporating all the changes over the patch cycle. I have seen people complain about the driving TDs and spear TDs but that doesn't stop the progress. People are expected to adjust to gameplay changes, so what's the difference in regards to stamina which is perhaps the most crucial aspect of fighting. If the basis is wrong the whole meta is based on wrong parameters leading to inappropriate strategies and tactics becoming common. Like the abundance of body 1212 or bobble head movement before the corrections.

2. That shows that elite fighters concerns about people hiding behind block are unfounded.
- This problem is due to blocking being the primary (safest) form of defense currently. If it were aligned more towards reality- footwork should be safer and the preferred method of defense. Block breaking down easier also helps by making blocking more risky (as it should be), then footwork can also be made to be less risky so the tuning results in more favorable and realistic outputs and outcomes.

3. That decreasing the block wont lead to more KOs and make it hard as hell to ever have decisions.
- It is easy to land strikes, accuracy is very high. That is the main issue from this. If it were harder to land strikes then the chances of being KO'd decreases dramatically and there would be more decisions like reality. This can be achieved by making it easier to evade with footwork- lower the tracking of strikes on moving opponents (so the accuracy stat matters more) and/or increase the window to evade.

You still arent listening. You expect the devs to find this post amongst all of this? I said "Make a Thread" but do what you want.

Also if most of your argument is "casuals will adjust", thats probably not the best argument to make to a team with a primary goal of selling games. There also is a big difference between adjusting to a spear takedown (which not every fighter has) and an overall game mechanic like stamina that affects every game.

I look forward to you guys presenting the same demands until UFC 4 with no adjustments to your approach.

[Haz____]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

Aberts posts confuse me. To me they read something along the lines of:

~"I don't care about what you guys are talking about at all, because I don't even play those game modes, and don't actually have any experience with what you guys are talking about at all, but I heard someone say something about why they don't like it, so even though I don't actually care at all, and have never even experienced what your talking about, youre wrong because that guy said something about it"

It's weird that you spend so much time defending things you don't care about, and writing posts about game modes you don't even play.

Who are these "elite" players? What exactly was their arguement? Why are you speaking on their behalf if you dont even care? How can we have a discussion with someone who isn't even here, when our posts are getting buried under "he said she said" while the real discussion is sidelined..


If you really "don't care" then stop burying the actual discussion, and let the people that do care make their points.

[johnmangala]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

You still arent listening. You expect the devs to find this post amongst all of this? I said "Make a Thread" but do what you want.

Also if most of your argument is "casuals will adjust", thats probably not the best argument to make to a team with a primary goal of selling games. There also is a big difference between adjusting to a spear takedown (which not every fighter has) and an overall game mechanic like stamina that affects every game.

I look forward to you guys presenting the same demands until UFC 4 with no adjustments to your approach.

This thread is already serving that function, wouldn't it be spamming if I just start another for the same?

Grappling stamina was changed and that affects every game. Casuals could've loved body 1212 and bobble head movement for all we know but it was changed for authenticity and balance but everyone had to adjust.

What adjustments would you recommend to my approach? I would at least try.

[aholbert32]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

Aberts posts confuse me. To me they read something along the lines of:

~"I don't care about what you guys are talking about at all, because I don't even play those game modes, and don't actually have any experience with what you guys are talking about at all, but I heard someone say something about why they don't like it, so even though I don't actually care at all, and have never even experienced what your talking about, youre wrong because that guy said something about it"

It's weird that you spend so much time defending things you don't care about, and writing posts about game modes you don't even play.

Who are these "elite" players? What exactly was their arguement? Why are you speaking on their behalf if you dont even care? How can we have a discussion with someone who isn't even here, when our posts are getting buried under "he said she said" while the real discussion is sidelined..

I'll break it down for you so you wont be confused anymore:

- The reason I'm a game changer is OS and offline gaming. Not you and the people who came over when the EA forums were shut down. The guys like Shiz (who is still here) and many others who stopped posting here once many of the EA forum guys came over. They are well reasoned guys who want a realistic representation of MMA but also are mature enough to understand that this is a game.

- Because I represent offline and OS, anytime an issue here pops up here (whether its stamina, movement or head movement or AI), I bring it up in the chat that the Gamechangers and the devs share. Half the time, I'm not even aware of the issue. Its just "Hey, take a look at this thread and tell me what you think." I did that regularly pre and post launch. In fact, last spring I brought up this very subject to the GCs and the devs and we discussed it for a long time (days). Its the reason I was able to land on my conclusion that none of the proposed solutions will make everyone happy.

- Now this isnt part of my responsibility but the reason im a GC is because of OS, so I provide the information I can back to this forum. If someone asks a question, I'll provide an answer if i know it. If someone is out here making wild speculation or providing incorrect info, I'll correct that. I do that because I know the answer and because the devs dont spend a ton of time posting here.

- Other GCs dont come here regularly. They dont enjoy debating with you guys for the most part nor do that find it a fun way to spend their time. They have no obligation to listen to or debate what you guys are saying.

- The reality is you dont really like debate. You dont like legit pushback. I've observed that for years now. When you get legit pushback you try to change the subject or (in the past) flipped out and got yourself banned multiple times. So I see why this is tough for you. With that said, all I'm trying to do is help you.

You want more realistic stamina? Come with a better argument because the one you've been using for over a year doesnt seem to have much traction. Dont get mad at me because it doesnt have traction. Regroup and come with a better argument. The team is developing a new game right now. Now is the time. The approach you should be taking is to present a better argument that will convince the devs that this is the way to go and that it will benefit every type of player who plays the game.

I hope this clears your confusion.

[aholbert32]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

This thread is already serving that function, wouldn't it be spamming if I just start another for the same?

Grappling stamina was changed and that affects every game. Casuals could've loved body 1212 and bobble head movement for all we know but it was changed for authenticity and balance but everyone had to adjust.

What adjustments would you recommend to my approach? I would at least try.

Nope because you would be presenting your argument of what should change about stamina and what shouldnt. Being a former mod, I doubt anyone would lock that.

Body 1212 and bobble heads were removed because there was a consensus amongst the entire community that it should be changed.

Your adjustments should be what I just told you. Present an argument in a separate thread. Anticipate the counter arguments (many of which can be found in this thread or by using the search engine). Avoid arguments like "Casuals will adjust".