Why can people play like terminators

[Mydog8]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

Problem with pro players is that they are more worried about the game design and balance, which is important. But they dont think as much about think as much about the game being true to life.

So yes, there are a host of effective ways to deal with terminator's and therefore its reasonably balanced. But the prevalence of that style is a sign of it not being true to life.

I am div 5 hovering around 1600 puts. I am not a pro but I am pretty good. I say that to say i understand the gaming and the better i get I see the strategy and nuance which makes the game fun and competitive. But i also see how some of it is not Sim or reality based

The Devs run into these problems they tend to use gimmicky or gamy solutions. Instead of saying "what stops this from happening Irl and how should we implement that in game"

The solution for terminator's Irl are:
1. Reduced power on straights if in too close
2. Parrying
3. Short term and long term stamina for hi volume.
4. Slight Reduction to vulnerability for head movement into strikes(on punches, kicks seem about right)
5. The ability to block while doing head movement

[aholbert32]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

I disagree and that mindset is a major problem in media and in our country.

Instead of just doing what people say they want people need to have a big vision and stick to it. It is the courage of leadership.

Star Wars OG trilogy
NBA2k series
The Show series
Nirvana
Michael Jackson
Obama
Mass Effect

These things above would not have been so awesome unless the creative mind didn't follow the vision and instead just went with the crowd. Every slip up for n the above has been because they followed the crowd instead of leading the crowd

The truth is that EA is only the best sports game in categories that dont have other sports games because they just give people what they want. People dont know what they want. They should have vision of making an MMA Sim and good things will happen when you follow that idea.

I work in the TV business. We do surveys and focus groups to figure out what our audience wants to see on the air. We follow the ratings closely to see what kind of shows are clicking with the desired audience. That data helps us decide what shows to greenlight and what eventually makes the air.

Its a similar thing with EA. They have in game telemetry that tells them how people are playing, how long they are playing and what modes they are playing. They have surveys that random people take. They have focus groups that describe what they are looking for in an MMA game. They have a team of Gamechangers that is diverse and tells them what they want in an mma game. Finally, they have social media and forums where they can get more information about what people want.

Now from all that information they can determine what the buying public wants....and thats what really matters. Why? Because EA isnt making art. They are making a game that they are trying to sell to the most people possible. One way (and the most reliable way) is to use data create a game that appeals to the most people. There are outliers where going against the grain has lead to great success but that isnt the approach most businesses take.

That means that you, me and everyone here isnt likely to get the game we want. As a consumer, I can see why that would frustrate you.

I see it a bit different though. On some of these issues we are asking GPD and the devs to go counter to what the data (what the buying public wants) is telling them simply because we want the game to be strictly realistic. We believe that it will make the game better and will lead to more sales.

There are no consequences if we are wrong. If the next game drops significantly in sales, it doesn't effect us much other than there may not be a UFC 5. You know who does face consequences? The devs. If they go against the data presented and the next game is crushed by consumers and critics....thats their job.

Now I'm not saying that we shouldnt continue to press them to make the game more sim in certain areas but I think it does help to recognize that there is significant risk in outright changing the direction of the series. UFC 2 and 3 are both million selling games. The UFC series is the 3rd highest EA Sports game behind Madden and Fifa. I can see why they may be hesitant to rock the boat.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[Mydog8]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

Lol....i just uni ignored you yesterday so lets see how this goes.

TV stinks because of the process you just laid out. I am not denying the practice exists. I am just saying it doesn't yield a good product. Think of some cool ground breaking trend setting media and ask yourself if it would have been green lit based off surveys

Star Wars - if there was a survey about a fantasy space opera done circa 1975. The public would say hell no.

Hip hop music - if a survey said does anyone want sampling no singing just rhyming. The consensus would be hell no

1990 - survey about having mma as a sport. Another hell no.

BLADE - yes the granddaddy if modern comic book movies. After the Batman fiasco no body was trying to see superhero movies

Matrix - philosophical Kung Fu flick rolled into a cyberpunk dystopia starring Keanu Reeves. Anybody who saw Johny pneumonic would say that is a bad idea.

I could keep going.



EA is making art, but because they dont realize it they are making mediocre art. They also dont seem to realize good art sells better. But i guess its easier to just monopolize the industry. But NBA 2k and the Show are examples of creating art and dominating the competition by just being good

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

Lol....i just uni ignored you yesterday so lets see how this goes.

TV stinks because of the process you just laid out. I am not denying the practice exists. I am just saying it doesn't yield a good product. Think of some cool ground breaking trend setting media and ask yourself if it would have been green lit based off surveys

Star Wars - if there was a survey about a fantasy space opera done circa 1975. The public would say hell no.

Hip hop music - if a survey said does anyone want sampling no singing just rhyming. The consensus would be hell no

1990 - survey about having mma as a sport. Another hell no.

BLADE - yes the granddaddy if modern comic book movies. After the Batman fiasco no body was trying to see superhero movies

Matrix - philosophical Kung Fu flick rolled into a cyberpunk dystopia starring Keanu Reeves. Anybody who saw Johny pneumonic would say that is a bad idea.

I could keep going.



EA is making art, but because they dont realize it they are making mediocre art. They also dont seem to realize good art sells better. But i guess its easier to just monopolize the industry. But NBA 2k and the Show are examples of creating art and dominating the competition by just being good

Examples that show the opposite of this.

American office was changed after series one to fit an american audience, based on feedback it wss changed and became one of the most loved shows ever.

Parks and recs was changed, lesle knope especially as people found her too dopey and dimwitted and was unlikable. Due to audience feedback this was changed for the better.

Your argument is essentially creativity breeds good product, which is does. But audience feedback is essential in making something popular

[aholbert32]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

Lol....i just uni ignored you yesterday so lets see how this goes.

TV stinks because of the process you just laid out. I am not denying the practice exists. I am just saying it doesn't yield a good product. Think of some cool ground breaking trend setting media and ask yourself if it would have been green lit based off surveys

Star Wars - if there was a survey about a fantasy space opera done circa 1975. The public would say hell no.

Hip hop music - if a survey said does anyone want sampling no singing just rhyming. The consensus would be hell no

1990 - survey about having mma as a sport. Another hell no.

BLADE - yes the granddaddy if modern comic book movies. After the Batman fiasco no body was trying to see superhero movies

Matrix - philosophical Kung Fu flick rolled into a cyberpunk dystopia starring Keanu Reeves. Anybody who saw Johny pneumonic would say that is a bad idea.

I could keep going.



EA is making art, but because they dont realize it they are making mediocre art. They also dont seem to realize good art sells better. But i guess its easier to just monopolize the industry. But NBA 2k and the Show are examples of creating art and dominating the competition by just being good

I agree there are scenarios where the buying public loved something that wouldve never happened if surveys were listened too. There are also alot of scenarios where surveys and audience feedback were the reasons something was a success.

Even the game examples you used dont exactly fit. NBA 2k is an example of a great series vs a bad series (what Live became after 2001). There are people here who prefer EA's MVP Baseball (which many considered more sim) over the Show but the Show won that battle (partially because they have 3rd party exclusivity).

NFL2k was a significantly better football series and more realistic but it didnt have any traction until they drastically cut the price. I'd argue to this day that the NHL 2k series is a way better series than EA NHL but EA's series is the only one that still around and thats not because of an exclusivity deal.

My overall point is that EA isnt attempting to create art. They want to sell games. They have shareholders and employees who want to sell games. They arent in the business to ignore data and take chances. Their business model has worked for decades simply because they dont take a ton of chances. They take that data and they attempt to give people what they want (another piece of that business model is exclusive deals but thats another point).

Last point: If I was GPD or a dev, I would be cautious too. I have a family to feed. If the data says that fans want X and giving them X leads to the game selling 1 million copies (like the last 2 games have), I'm giving them X. Positive posts and praise from people at OS doesnt feed my kid and if I listen to them and the game doesnt sell, I'm unemployed.

[tomitomitomi]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

Star Wars OG trilogy
NBA2k series
The Show series
Nirvana
Michael Jackson
Obama
Mass Effect

Star Wars - if there was a survey about a fantasy space opera done circa 1975. The public would say hell no.

Hip hop music - if a survey said does anyone want sampling no singing just rhyming. The consensus would be hell no

1990 - survey about having mma as a sport. Another hell no.

BLADE - yes the granddaddy if modern comic book movies. After the Batman fiasco no body was trying to see superhero movies

Matrix - philosophical Kung Fu flick rolled into a cyberpunk dystopia starring Keanu Reeves. Anybody who saw Johny pneumonic would say that is a bad idea.

You are just randomly cherry picking examples that you think fit your agenda. Pop music is extremely formulaic and Marvel movies have been criticized for being very similar to each other for years yet they are raking in the money. Call of Duty has been the best selling video game franchise for a decade and they've had relatively marginal changes over the years.

Why are there so many sequels compared to new IPs?

On a side note, hip hop was already popular in 1990.

[aholbert32]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

You are just randomly cherry picking examples that you think fit your agenda. Pop music is extremely formulaic and Marvel movies have been criticized for being very similar to each other for years yet they are raking in the money. Call of Duty has been the best selling video game franchise for a decade and they've had relatively marginal changes over the years.

Why are there so many sequels compared to new IPs?

On a side note, hip hop was already popular in 1990.

****, I'd argue one of its biggest years was 88.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

I agree there are scenarios where the buying public loved something that wouldve never happened if surveys were listened too. There are also alot of scenarios where surveys and audience feedback were the reasons something was a success.

Even the game examples you used dont exactly fit. NBA 2k is an example of a great series vs a bad series (what Live became after 2001). There are people here who prefer EA's MVP Baseball (which many considered more sim) over the Show but the Show won that battle (partially because they have 3rd party exclusivity).

NFL2k was a significantly better football series and more realistic but it didnt have any traction until they drastically cut the price. I'd argue to this day that the NHL 2k series is a way better series than EA NHL but EA's series is the only one that still around and thats not because of an exclusivity deal.

My overall point is that EA isnt attempting to create art. They want to sell games. They have shareholders and employees who want to sell games. They arent in the business to ignore data and take chances. Their business model has worked for decades simply because they dont take a ton of chances. They take that data and they attempt to give people what they want (another piece of that business model is exclusive deals but thats another point).

Last point: If I was GPD or a dev, I would be cautious too. I have a family to feed. If the data says that fans want X and giving them X leads to the game selling 1 million copies (like the last 2 games have), I'm giving them X. Positive posts and praise from people at OS doesnt feed my kid and if I listen to them and the game doesnt sell, I'm unemployed.

Yeah, it is a business after all. All of it is understandable when you look at it from that side. I disagree with the overly-balanced competitive stance (which I think/thought) the devs support, but I can't really not understand all the things you listed. Hopefully our posts here do lead to some some sim changes and modes in the next games, though.


Edit: there were counter-arguments and examples though, so the game could improve drastically by taking a risk.

[Mydog8]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

Examples that show the opposite of this.

American office was changed after series one to fit an american audience, based on feedback it wss changed and became one of the most loved shows ever.

Parks and recs was changed, lesle knope especially as people found her too dopey and dimwitted and was unlikable. Due to audience feedback this was changed for the better.

Your argument is essentially creativity breeds good product, which is does. But audience feedback is essential in making something popular

Ironically, I hate both of those shows. I think those are examples of sub par programming. I think we can at least agree they are not great or iconic shows which is what I am talking about.

My point is not just creativity, but having a vision and leadership is what creates greatness in all areas. Now I am not saying you should not take advice or feedback. I am saying that changes should occur with the vision in mind first

[Mydog8]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

My point is that if you make being great as the goal. The money will come. If you make 💵 ey the goal you might get lucky and get some money but you will never be great.

I will go a bit deepe. I will concede that in achieving greatness you need to incorporate a way to properly monetize it. But none of that will matter if you aren't shooting for exceptionalism.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

Ironically, I hate both of those shows. I think those are examples of sub par programming. I think we can at least agree they are not great or iconic shows which is what I am talking about.

My point is not just creativity, but having a vision and leadership is what creates greatness in all areas. Now I am not saying you should not take advice or feedback. I am saying that changes should occur with the vision in mind first

Sorry but they are iconic shows, they are widely regarded as such. The british office would come under your argument of it being made with a vision, thats also a truly iconic show.

What happens if that vision is wrong? What happens if they have a vision but they change that vision?

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

My point is that if you make being great as the goal. The money will come. If you make 💵 ey the goal you might get lucky and get some money but you will never be great.

I will go a bit deepe. I will concede that in achieving greatness you need to incorporate a way to properly monetize it. But none of that will matter if you aren't shooting for exceptionalism.

Yeah I agree the aim should be to provide a great product. But listening to users etc is essential for doing such.

[aholbert32]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

Sorry but they are iconic shows, they are widely regarded as such. The british office would come under your argument of it being made with a vision, thats also a truly iconic show.

What happens if that vision is wrong? What happens if they have a vision but they change that vision?

There arent many all time comedy lists that dont have the US Office in its top 10.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

There arent many all time comedy lists that dont have the US Office in its top 10.

Its even popular in britain, where the original is regarded as untouchable. Brentisms are still present today. Ooh you're hard, is a brentism.

[tomitomitomi]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

Ironically, I hate both of those shows. I think those are examples of sub par programming. I think we can at least agree they are not great or iconic shows which is what I am talking about.

No that is a terrible take. They are unquestionably iconic. Unquestionably more iconic than Mass Effect.

My point is that if you make being great as the goal. The money will come. If you make 💵 ey the goal you might get lucky and get some money but you will never be great.

Conker's Bad Fur Day
Okami
Beyond Good & Evil
Grim Fandango
Psychonauts

All critically acclaimed and respected games that sold poorly. This is such a naive and baseless way to look at things.