Why can people play like terminators

[RomeroXVII]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

http://www.twitch.tv/swisslibax/v/361842993?sr=a&t=3649s

I fought my good buddy, former ESFL Champ Swiss-Libax on Ranked and he just so happened to be streaming, so this is very convenient considering the conversation.

Anybody who has ever watched Swiss play, knows that he is nearly relentless with his pressure. Granted, we've played each other plenty of times now that he knows not to simple throw wombo combos against me because he WILL be punished, but look:

Head movement is utilized.

Lunges are utilized so I'm not trapped against the cage.

Using the left stick to circle is another tactic.

And the most important thing, something that I stress A LOT, is making READS.

The tools are there to use it, and like RetratcedMonkey , a former ESFL Champ himself says, at this stage in the game things cannot be simply spoon fed to you and you expect a desirable result everytime. You have to PRACTICE.

Even the guys who are throwing these seemingly 'terminator' like combos, there is a METHOD behind it, and the really smart players change up their patterns based on your reaction to their pressure. The easiest victims are those who don't utilize slips, slip counters, pushes, clinches (the over-under clinch is ESPECIALLY good, ask FlaccoNumbah5).

I'm not saying I'm the best player in the world, sometimes I mistime slips and get hit with a hook instead of slipping a straight like I expected, that can happen, there's no need to brood and be mad the entire fight because I mistimed something, I move on, and try to either create another opening or capitalize on the other players mistakes.

People get so worried about the 'what-if's' so much, that they're mentally trapping themselves from progressing further in the game. Take some time, practice with some friends, use the A.I. on strike recording mode to practice, the tools are there for you to use, it is up to the player to utilize them.

MartialMind has been posting a series using the WORST fighters in each weight class, and was able to pull of wins with many, the one I deemed most impressive was the Teruto Ishihara pick he had (C+ Fighter) vs a very solid Conor McGregor (A+ Fighter) one of the most recognized OP fighters with regards to stand up in the game, and Martial used the tools (slips, ducks, lunges) + plus made the proper reads to adjust to what his Opponent was doing.

https://youtu.be/RxR_OIr85aI Skip to 11:05 for the fight.

It is dependent on the player to make the necessary adjustments to win the fight. Take the time to learn, and most importantly, have fun.

[RomeroXVII]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

Because the clinch entries should have the logic TDs have now.

Oppoent moving towards: over/under, double leg
Opponent moving away: single collar, single leg

Like the single collar tie the over under entry animation needed to be updated.

You don't need to strike prior to land TDs now with that logic, same should be for the clinch. The current over/under entry has such a long animation to deny.

Not if you do it off a hit stun, or successfully slip a strike. Especially with Khabib, it is absolutely godly how fast it is to get that over under clinch when set up correctly.

[FadeawayJay]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

It’s only possible for someone to do that if you’re just blocking and walking backwards.

Utilize lunges/headmovement and bodywork. You’ll see their stamina drain

I am well aware. I can do that to a lot of guys, but good players are too technical in their pressure, so my basic head movement (my movement in general are pretty decent though) will only get me in danger. That's how it should be though, don't get me wrong. My only point, and what I assume was that other poster point, is that even if you're just walking away and blocking, throwing +100 strikes, from heavy combos with very small breaks in between each one, would be really taxing on your stamina. Again, if you're hitting the heavy bag for 10 minutes, even if you're only hitting it relatively light, it's actually pretty hard. I'm in good condition myself, and I would never be able to recreate the production on a heavy bag, that some of these players put forth in-game, where adrenaline and the wear and tear you pick up over the course of a fight from getting punched should play a factor as well. Pro fighters wouldn't either. But then again, it's a game, and you take certain liberties for gameplay purposes, that's understandable.

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

God sake here we go again.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

I am well aware. I can do that to a lot of guys, but good players are too technical in their pressure, so my basic head movement (my movement in general are pretty decent though) will only get me in danger. That's how it should be though, don't get me wrong. My only point, and what I assume was that other poster point, is that even if you're just walking away and blocking, throwing +100 strikes, from heavy combos with very small breaks in between each one, would be really taxing on your stamina. Again, if you're hitting the heavy bag for 10 minutes, even if you're only hitting it relatively light, it's actually pretty hard. I'm in good condition myself, and I would never be able to recreate the production on a heavy bag, that some of these players put forth in-game, where adrenaline and the wear and tear you pick up over the course of a fight from getting punched should play a factor as well. Pro fighters wouldn't either. But then again, it's a game, and you take certain liberties for gameplay purposes, that's understandable.

You’re 100% correct in that regard.

Unfortunately the Devs dont want to make a completely sim game so we wont get that. But we have been given tools to gas our opponents.

[johnmangala]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

Not if you do it off a hit stun, or successfully slip a strike. Especially with Khabib, it is absolutely godly how fast it is to get that over under clinch when set up correctly.

I'm saying you shouldn't have to strike to clinch. Even Martial Mind says when someone is crashing into you it should be easier to clinch.

The animation for the over under entry is poor and should've been reanimated like the single collar. That's all my point.

[Haz_____]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

To me, in my opinion, it doesn't matter how much skill it takes, its incredibly unrealistic to fight with the volume and pressure people do in this game. You look at the fight metric for world record setting volume thrown in fights, and just the normal average fight in this game blows that out of the water. To me that alone is enough of a reason to fix or change things. Fights in this game are not very realistic at all.

________________________

Here's a little copy and paste from a thread I made months ago. With some small edits to bring up to date.

The stamina in this game is insanely unrealistic. I'm seeing people go completely crazy in round 1, just chasing me down down non stop, throwing a never ending stream of strikes. I've seen countless fights where in the first round alone, people are throwing 140+ strikes, and starting round 2 with near full stamina still. Now i'm sure i'm gonna get a handful of people jumping down my throat for saying that, but it's true, and hear me out.

Now first off, can that type of striking be dealt with? Sure. of course. We have talked about in it many of the other threads. Duck a punch and counter. Slip and Counter. Use lunge back to create distance. Etc. But whether it can be dealt with is not the point. The point is, that it shouldn't even be possible in the first place. You shouldn't be able to throw 140 strikes, and still start round 2 just fine.


http://fightnomics.com/category/blog...striking-pace/

According to this graph, which tracks all fights in the UFC starting from the very beginning.... The average number of strikes per min IN REAL LIFE, is only around 9 strikes. 9 strikes per minute.. In EA UFC 3, it's more like 30-40 strikes per minute. That's an incredibly huge difference.

Now i'm totally OK with you being able to throw 140 strikes in a round. Go for it. But there needs to be consequences to putting that kind of work in. If you throw 140 strikes in round 1, you better be starting round 2 with a big ol' chunk out of your stamina. As it stands now, unless you're actively putting in a ton of body work ALSO, then the opponent isn't draining much stamina at all, despite the fact they are throwing an entire fights worth of strikes in 1 round. Again tho, this goes back to my original point; Whether it can be dealt with is not the point. The point is, that it shouldn't even be possible in the first place.







Here's another interesting article which showes how Diaz actually broke the world record for most strikes in a fight when he fought Conor the 2nd time.

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/mma/nate-diaz-set-a-ufc-record-during-his-five-round-war-with-conor-mcgregor-92949

Diaz threw 435 strikes in that fight. That is the world record for strikes thrown in a fight.... Now in EA UFC 3, almost every single 5 round fight completely blows that out of the water. Shoot, almost every 3 round fight in EA UFC 3 blows that out of the water..

Conor only threw 322 strikes that fight. In 5 rounds he threw 322 strikes and was completely and totally gassed out. Why can Conor throw that many strikes in just 2 rounds in EA UFC 3, and be just fine? That is an issue. The stamina in this game is an issue.


My suggestion, is that when you throw long enough strings of combinations to drain most, or all of your short term stamina, that needs to have a bigger effect on long term stamina drain. This would reward picking your shots, but put a tax on non stop pressure, while still allowing you to go completely crazy in a round if you really wanted. Which is far more realistic. Still it's not a perfect solution, but in my opinion something has to be done.

Again, does it take immense skill? YES. But it is extremely unrealistic? Also yes.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

That graph is misleading because there’s way more grappling in real life then we see in this game.

If you have a grappling heavy round you can see strikes totals look way more realistic.

Plus in real life guys rarely just back up holding block. They use head movement, lunges, parries, and basic footwork to make their opponent’s miss. If you did the same in the game your opponents would be gasping for air pretty soon.

[RetractedMonkey]

Why can people play like terminators

Players will always throw more strikes than in real life no matter what you do to the game because there is no bodily risk. I don’t know why y’all keep taking the time to not only post about this again, but to repost old messages when you’ve been told why things are they way they are and why they aren’t changing.

Be mad about it or not, but constantly complaining about strike counts is not only totally unproductive and overplayed at this point, but annoying.

Petition for a realism mode. You can stare at each other and replicate all the boring and random features of a fight to your heart’s content.

To summarize the point: you can’t apply a multitude of examples of “realistic” features to an inherently unrealistic experience. You can apply some, but nothing will ever change the human element. And trying to force the changes through gameplay mechanics will only result in frustrated players, not some utopia where every match looks like a real fight because the devs implemented your realism ideas.

Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[GamingPractitioner]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

The pressure does get annoying but there indeed are some defensive tools in the game to use against players who use pressure fighting in strategic or wreckless manner. Ex. Push, Long Guard Retreat or stiff arm retreat, Teeps, Head Movement, Pivots and Lunges. Though to be fair pivoting and lunging certain strikes doesn't work 100% of the time due to the tracking of some strikes. It's just takes a bit more effort, practice and understanding of the defensive mechanics. Btw i am no where NEAR being a top player in the game either.

[RematchKing]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

LMAO! Welcome to MMA, man. All those variables you just spouted? That's the name of the game. It isn't supposed to be easy. This is what I mean when I say you guys want to be spoonfed git gud juice without putting work in. Yes, it's difficult (particularly if your opponent is good), but all the tools are there. If you have the skill, your actions will be consistent and purposeful. But that doesn't mean you're going to win, dude. You can do everything right and still lose. That's just the way it is.

I literally listed all of the best ways to deal with pressure. They aren't invalid because you can't use them properly. You are bad. If you want to get better, you need to accept that and stop looking left and right for every excuse to confirm your bias that something is wrong with the game.

I’m not saying it needs to be easy, because everyone would just play the same. I’m saying that if you’re going to have a game with THIS many problems with inputs and whatnot, things that are completely out of my control, then there should be some reliable way to defend yourself against a constant barrage like this. What is with people here and acting like this game doesn’t have issues with inputs?

Do you really think nothing should be sone about this (rhetorical)? That people should be able to walk forward with constant combos and not get tired? I’m all for people being able to do this for about a round before being dead tired but they shouldn’t be able to do it every round of a fight.

When they fix the input delay and all of that other stuff that I can’t control, then maybe a lot of the preexisting defenses would actually be useful. Its not that I’m unaware of the mechanisms that SHOULD be used for defense, its that they DON’T WORK reliably. What kind of crap is it to say “Oh, that’s the nature of MMA!” Really? Its the nature of MMA for the fighters to want to major slip and they do a minor slip? Its MMA for a fighter to want to throw a slip straight and a hook comes out? Its MMA for a fighter to walk forward throwing everything in their tank and then going back to the stool and being able to do it again the next round and then the next? Its MMA for leg kicks to not slow the movement of people down? Oh, I’m sorry Mr. MMA expert, I didn’t realize. Maybe I need to go and reevaluate how I’m watching MMA.

You’re trying to justify short comings in the actual design of the game. If you think unreliable inputs are OK, then doctor stoppages should be OK as well and they should also be random just to make it fair. I’m sure plenty of people would have an issue with that.

Point is, if it wasn’t an issue many were facing, this thread would have been done before 2 pages. I love how when people present an actual problem, the defacto defense is that the person doesn’t know how to play. I’m an average player and by no means a noob. I’m sure I’ve kicked a few guys asses here on the forum before. I’d love to see how you people saying it’s that easy would handle someone doing this and I don’t mean a scrub doing it. I mean the actual guys that do nothing but use this strategy all day every day. It’s nowhere near as easy to counter as you’re trying to make it seem.

I don’t need to satirically like someone’s posts like Romero is doing. I’ve seen how he gets when someone is putting a beating on him so he can say and like whatever he wants because I’ve seen it. He can’t deny fact. He can say it’s easy all day long but guess what? Him cursing and calling the other player all kinds of names when they’re beating him is proof of that so you can say what you want Monkey and Romero can keep lying to himself liking your posts.

I made an account specifically to post on this thread because before, I thought that maybe I was one of only few having issues with this. Its not that I have a problem with the aggression, its the time that they’re able to keep it up. I can avoid the strikes fairly well a lot of the times, but eventually, your block breaks down and it’s only a matter of time because they don’t lose enough stamina from doing this. I’ve been playing these games since the MMA games on like PS2 with Throwdown. These people need to be zombies if they do this for a round straight!

Bottom line is if you don’t agree with what I’m saying, so be it. You have a right to disagree, but you going around calling everyone bad when they have an issue with something that you literally should not be able to do in the game because its totally unrealistic, is just childish and why this game hasn’t taken off the way it should have. You don’t like what I’m saying? Ok, that’s fine, stop quoting me and just mute me. I’m not here to go back and forth with you dude, I really don’t care about what you have to say. I care about getting something done about a strategy that should not be as effective as it is. Good player or bad, this should not be something that people can do, point blank. It has nothing to do with whether you can or can’t beat it, why can people do it in the first place? You lose stamina for head movement, but not throwing 150+ strikes a round? Seriously?

[RematchKing]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

The pressure does get annoying but there indeed are some defensive tools in the game to use against players who use pressure fighting in strategic or wreckless manner. Ex. Push, Long Guard Retreat or stiff arm retreat, Teeps, Head Movement, Pivots and Lunges. Though to be fair pivoting and lunging certain strikes doesn't work 100% of the time due to the tracking of some strikes. It's just takes a bit more effort, practice and understanding of the defensive mechanics. Btw i am no where NEAR being a top player in the game either.

So you do understand what I’m saying about the mechanics not working as they should. That’s what people here aren’t seeming to get. What SHOULD work to counter this, DOESN’T. Like if the consequence of a slip can potentially be a KO, then the slip mechanic should work flawlessly. There’s none of this stuff in other fighting games. I’ve never once input a command in MK or SF or Tekken and had it not work. If you’re going to put in these frame advantages and whatnot, then they need to be done correctly. If you want to make the game realistic, then it needs to be universal. Don’t try to make one thing realistic and then another completely arcade. That does not work well because you have realistic consequence, but arcade aspects when it comes to attacks.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

Rematch King are you on Xbox? I’d be more than happy to work with you in regard to the defensive tools in the game and how to use them.

I fear you may be trying to use them reactively instead of relying on prediction. The former is only viable when you have high stats/ stamina. The latter works with any/everyone. That’s why Martial suceeds with all types of fighters he’s great at making reads and adjusting.

I’m nowhere near a top player but I can make Div5 when I’m serious and outside of the super high level guys I can handle pressure fairly well.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

I’m not saying it needs to be easy, because everyone would just play the same. I’m saying that if you’re going to have a game with THIS many problems with inputs and whatnot, things that are completely out of my control, then there should be some reliable way to defend yourself against a constant barrage like this. What is with people here and acting like this game doesn’t have issues with inputs?

Do you really think nothing should be sone about this (rhetorical)? That people should be able to walk forward with constant combos and not get tired? I’m all for people being able to do this for about a round before being dead tired but they shouldn’t be able to do it every round of a fight.

When they fix the input delay and all of that other stuff that I can’t control, then maybe a lot of the preexisting defenses would actually be useful. Its not that I’m unaware of the mechanisms that SHOULD be used for defense, its that they DON’T WORK reliably. What kind of crap is it to say “Oh, that’s the nature of MMA!” Really? Its the nature of MMA for the fighters to want to major slip and they do a minor slip? Its MMA for a fighter to want to throw a slip straight and a hook comes out? Its MMA for a fighter to walk forward throwing everything in their tank and then going back to the stool and being able to do it again the next round and then the next? Its MMA for leg kicks to not slow the movement of people down? Oh, I’m sorry Mr. MMA expert, I didn’t realize. Maybe I need to go and reevaluate how I’m watching MMA.

You’re trying to justify short comings in the actual design of the game. If you think unreliable inputs are OK, then doctor stoppages should be OK as well and they should also be random just to make it fair. I’m sure plenty of people would have an issue with that.

Point is, if it wasn’t an issue many were facing, this thread would have been done before 2 pages. I love how when people present an actual problem, the defacto defense is that the person doesn’t know how to play. I’m an average player and by no means a noob. I’m sure I’ve kicked a few guys asses here on the forum before. I’d love to see how you people saying it’s that easy would handle someone doing this and I don’t mean a scrub doing it. I mean the actual guys that do nothing but use this strategy all day every day. It’s nowhere near as easy to counter as you’re trying to make it seem.

I don’t need to satirically like someone’s posts like Romero is doing. I’ve seen how he gets when someone is putting a beating on him so he can say and like whatever he wants because I’ve seen it. He can’t deny fact. He can say it’s easy all day long but guess what? Him cursing and calling the other player all kinds of names when they’re beating him is proof of that so you can say what you want Monkey and Romero can keep lying to himself liking your posts.

I made an account specifically to post on this thread because before, I thought that maybe I was one of only few having issues with this. Its not that I have a problem with the aggression, its the time that they’re able to keep it up. I can avoid the strikes fairly well a lot of the times, but eventually, your block breaks down and it’s only a matter of time because they don’t lose enough stamina from doing this. I’ve been playing these games since the MMA games on like PS2 with Throwdown. These people need to be zombies if they do this for a round straight!

Bottom line is if you don’t agree with what I’m saying, so be it. You have a right to disagree, but you going around calling everyone bad when they have an issue with something that you literally should not be able to do in the game because its totally unrealistic, is just childish and why this game hasn’t taken off the way it should have. You don’t like what I’m saying? Ok, that’s fine, stop quoting me and just mute me. I’m not here to go back and forth with you dude, I really don’t care about what you have to say. I care about getting something done about a strategy that should not be as effective as it is. Good player or bad, this should not be something that people can do, point blank. It has nothing to do with whether you can or can’t beat it, why can people do it in the first place? You lose stamina for head movement, but not throwing 150+ strikes a round? Seriously?

You literally used MartialMind and Romero as proof that high level players react poorly to pressure. Then, when multiple people point out that MM was in a series called using the WORST fighters and STILL wins, you don't even acknowledge that. Furthermore, you see Romero completely contradict everything you said about him and then say he's LYING TO HIMSELF. The only one lying to themselves here is you. The fact that you're digging through the couch to find anything to support your ideas, including flat out lying is proof enough to any reasonable viewer here that you are mad cuz bad. Using cursing as a metric to determine whether or not something is OP? G'won 'n git.

SwissLibax is the best pure pressure fighter in the game. You want to see a good player deal with it? Romero posted it. You conveniently ignoring everything you don't like isn't going to cut it around here. I'm always going to call you out and I'm always going to be that bug in your ear so long as you choose to post inane comments. So you can go ahead and take your own advice and mute these facts if your feelings can't handle them.

Also, using the fallacy "appeal to popularity" does not bolster your point. It doesn't matter how many people complain. That's not empirical proof. Only anecdotes.

[Good Grappler]

Re: Why can people play like terminators

People who play like Terminators just haven’t been matched up with enough people who play like me.