Soooo, are you part of the 'data"?

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Soooo, are you part of the 'data"?

This is such a subjective thing. You can say that "EA does not care about making the ultimate UFC experience for ME", or "EA does not care about making the best game ever for ME".

But it's rather presumptuous to assume that you speak for the entire world when judging what the ultimate UFC experience is, or what being the best game ever means for everyone else.

Perhaps there are people out there for whom the "best game" needs an underground Kumite environment.

Perhaps there are people out there for whom the "ultimate UFC experience" must include back yard fights.

And if there are more of those people than you, then EA is clearly demonstrating that they do in fact care about the things you are so certain they don't care about.

Sure, that's the fully objective way of looking at it. I can't even argue with what you said — the ultimate UFC experience" will differ from person to person.

However, I do think the idea of "if the game sells sufficiently you're clearly wrong about what EA care about" is...I don't know...flawed? I think they, like any business, care about money. The series is just a means to obtain said money. That's my opinion. And by having that opinion I don't mean to disregard your personal passion for MMA, or that of Skynet, or to disrespect your efforts over the past six years.

Still, even though the "ultimate UFC experience" cannot be quantified, I'm not sure that what you said really defeats what I said, as presumptuous as it may have been.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: Soooo, are you part of the 'data"?

Sure, that's the fully objective way of looking at it. I can't even argue with what you said — the ultimate UFC experience" will differ from person to person.

However, I do think the idea of "if the game sells sufficiently you're clearly wrong about what EA care about" is...I don't know...flawed? I think they, like any business, care about money. The series is just a means to obtain said money. That's my opinion. And by having that opinion I don't mean to disregard your personal passion for MMA, or that of Skynet, or to disrespect your efforts over the past six years.

Still, even though the "ultimate UFC experience" cannot be quantified, I'm not sure that what you said really defeats what I said, as presumptuous as it may have been.

Yeah of course, EA only cares about making money. It would be really weird if that wasn't the case.

I would imagine making "the best game ever" aligns pretty well with that goal though, wouldn't you say?

And even if it didn't, and EA only cares about making money, you can be sure the collective group of people actually working on making the game care about more than just making money.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Soooo, are you part of the 'data"?

Yeah of course, EA only cares about making money. It would be really weird if that wasn't the case.

I would imagine making "the best game ever" aligns pretty well with that goal though, wouldn't you say?

And even if it didn't, and EA only cares about making money, you can be sure the collective group of people actually working on making the game care about more than just making money.

That's why I explicitly stated that I mean no disrespect to you or Skynet's efforts and love for the sport. I did not talk about developers, I talked about EA the corporation.

I know you guys have a certain amount of resources to work with and certain guidelines that you have to operate by. After that, I'm left with the impression that from there it's up to you to salvage whatever's possible for the more dedicated fans. For that I thank you. Same for Skynet who does his best with the AIs behaviour.

But my opinion is always going to be my own, and as such, subjective. Objectively, I fully understand a company's goal is to make money. I just don't think they (not you) care about much more than that. They allocate a certain budget which A) could be higher in order to truly appease everyone or B) not use up almost all of it on what I think is shallow cash grab moves, leaving you to pick up the pieces. I don't even have to assume here, aholbert literally said they're barely restraining themselves from not abandoning the hardcore players completely.

And for the last time, none of this is aimed at you. But if there happen to be any devs who'd like to abandon the hardcore playerbase completely (as aholbert alluded to) then I see no reason to apologise. And why should I? For telling the truth? But yeah, none of this is aimed at you, Skynet, or anyone who truly did and does their best to make the hardcore fans happy and isn't being as dismissive of them as the rest of the company. I don't know how to be any clearer about this.

[Counter Punch]

Re: Soooo, are you part of the 'data"?

That sounds nice and maybe even logical in theory but what makes you think they'll start spending resources to appeal to people who are already buying the game while disliking it?

They won’t. That’s why I referenced people who aren’t buying the game.

[Counter Punch]

Re: Soooo, are you part of the 'data"?

It's like you skipped over these parts


Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I’m not sure how you got that impression, considering I addressed each of those parts:

“Like you said...”

“You seem to have explained...”

Edit:

In fact my entire post is a direct response to what you’re accusing me of ignoring.

What’s your deal?

[Skynet]

Re: Soooo, are you part of the 'data"?

Sure, that's the fully objective way of looking at it. I can't even argue with what you said — the ultimate UFC experience" will differ from person to person.

However, I do think the idea of "if the game sells sufficiently you're clearly wrong about what EA care about" is...I don't know...flawed? I think they, like any business, care about money. The series is just a means to obtain said money. That's my opinion. And by having that opinion I don't mean to disregard your personal passion for MMA, or that of Skynet, or to disrespect your efforts over the past six years.

Still, even though the "ultimate UFC experience" cannot be quantified, I'm not sure that what you said really defeats what I said, as presumptuous as it may have been.

Well I am...

People get so hung up on this magical entity known as 'EA'. What do you think EA is? Some machine with literal cogs and pistons that whirs away, making 100% cold and inhuman decisions that do nothing but gain short-term profit?

No. It's people. It is a large group of people, who share similar passions and vision and a desire to make quality and engaging experiences for the millions of people who will play our games. I have never even talked to or heard of, let alone interacted with, 95% of the people that make up "The big evil EA monster". But I can tell you that almost everyone I have had the pleasure of working with is nothing more or less than a person who has a passion for making games.

Do you think the people making UFC, or any game, sit at their desks and wonder 'how can I maximize the chance of stranger #122432 paying EA $$ that I'll never see...'. No. We sit there thinking "Damn, I have 2 weeks... what's the best possible version of this feature that I can make. What experience do I think will be the most enjoyable for the millions of people who will spend time engaging with it." This is often followed by "Damnit.... if only I had another week I could make it even better". That's it. That's basically the whole process. And just so you know, no amount of time ever feels like it was 'enough'. We work on these games for years, and at the end we still say "Damn... if only I had 1 more week". There is no perfect, finished game these days. Not at this scale.

Sometimes we make the wrong call (looking at you, Star Wars Battlefront) and most times we honestly listen to our players and strive to do better (Reverting the SW loot boxes and having years of free DLC). Sometimes we try new things, because we want to know what "data" might come out of it. Sometimes we just have an artistic vision for what we want to spend the next 2-3 years of our lives working on. Sometimes we monetize content that could have been free, and sometimes we put out content for free that could be monetized (UFC has never charged a cent for the maany patches and DLC we've made). Sometimes there are choices made for business reasons, but that doesn't mean those choices are harmful to players...

I have never in my time as a person on this team or as part of this larger group constituting the business of EA, heard a single choice being made because it would exploit our players for our benefit. Has it happened in the past? I'm sure it has. As it has in damn near every industry known to humanity. Do those businesses last if they keep doing it? They sure as hell do not.

EA's most valuable asset is firstly the people working here every day, and we're well looked after in that regard. In fact, I've often been very pleasantly surprised and grateful for how much EA goes above and beyond for not only the employees, but the larger communities we as people are a part of. The second biggest asset is our player communities, and you can be damned sure we do everything we can to make the best experiences we can for them. We don't always get it right, and we don't create the ideal result for every single person, but we sure as hell try. That mentality goes from the boots on the ground, to the people at the top. I think so, anyway.

[Skynet]

Re: Soooo, are you part of the 'data"?

That's why I explicitly stated that I mean no disrespect to you or Skynet's efforts and love for the sport. I did not talk about developers, I talked about EA the corporation.

I know you guys have a certain amount of resources to work with and certain guidelines that you have to operate by. After that, I'm left with the impression that from there it's up to you to salvage whatever's possible for the more dedicated fans. For that I thank you. Same for Skynet who does his best with the AIs behaviour.

But my opinion is always going to be my own, and as such, subjective. Objectively, I fully understand a company's goal is to make money. I just don't think they (not you) care about much more than that. They allocate a certain budget which A) could be higher in order to truly appease everyone or B) not use up almost all of it on what I think is shallow cash grab moves, leaving you to pick up the pieces. I don't even have to assume here, aholbert literally said they're barely restraining themselves from not abandoning the hardcore players completely.

And for the last time, none of this is aimed at you. But if there happen to be any devs who'd like to abandon the hardcore playerbase completely (as aholbert alluded to) then I see no reason to apologise. And why should I? For telling the truth? But yeah, none of this is aimed at you, Skynet, or anyone who truly did and does their best to make the hardcore fans happy and isn't being as dismissive of them as the rest of the company. I don't know how to be any clearer about this.

Not directing it at GPD or myself is a moot point. There is no 'EA' making evil choices. Do you mean our CEO, Andrew Wilson? Or our CFO Blake? Do you mean the leadership that guides the Sports franchises? Maybe the production leadership within the UFC team... They're all people. They all have names, they all have families, they all have jobs to do. And their main job is to support everyone around them to make the best possible content they can while still letting the company grow and prosper, so that we can continue the cycle.

The best strategy for that has, and always will be, making the best possible games we can.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Soooo, are you part of the 'data"?

@Skynet

I made another post on the previous page, you may not have seen it due to typing yours.


You sound like a guy with a lot of passion for what you're doing. Same with GPD. I appreciate that and I wish you all the time, resources and opportunity to do what you love and do it as best you can.

I have not accused EA of trying to exploit its playerbase here. All I said is that I believe the hardcore players are being disregarded as far as UFC 4 is being concerned. I'm not going to get into complaining about modes, gameplay decisions, etc. As a consumer, a fan, someone who has spent years trying to give you guys good ideas for your next game and someone who has read what aholbert has had to say, I am disappointed in the decisions EA have made regarding UFC 4. That has nothing to do with exploitation. People are free to choose whether they like those changes or not, the direction the series appears to be headed and whether they'll buy the game. I haven't accused anyone of exploitation in any of these posts.

You appear to be taking my criticism very personally. It was never my intention to make this ugly or to be disrespectful towards anyone. I don't think I could have voiced my criticism and advice for those who actually do **** on the game every day on how to send a real message any more respectfully. Again, best of luck with your work, and the same to GPD at Sony.


Edit: I don't know who makes the big decisions. I don't know who allocates the budget, I don't know who decides that the main target will be the casuals and that the hardcores will buy the game anyway and nothing significant will be done for them. It is those people that I'm talking about. And I haven't accused them of being criminals or anything such. They are free to do whatever they want with their business and people are free to buy or not buy their games. But I am also free to voice my criticisms, opinions, pieces of advice, anything. They are your colleagues and it's nice that you have such a great working relationship. I, as a consumer, don't care about that and have a right to speak my mind on the product you guys are trying to sell. I'm not a fan of the turn this has taken.

[Skynet]

Re: Soooo, are you part of the 'data"?

@Skynet

I made another post on the previous page, you may not have seen it due to typing yours.


You sound like a guy with a lot of passion for what you're doing. Same with GPD. I appreciate that and I wish you all the time, resources and opportunity to do what you love and do it as best you can.

I have not accused EA of trying to exploit its playerbase here. All I said is that I believe the hardcore players are being disregarded as far as UFC 4 is being concerned. I'm not going to get into complaining about modes, gameplay decisions, etc. As a consumer, a fan, someone who has spent years trying to give you guys good ideas for your next game and someone who has read what aholbert has had to say, I am disappointed in the decisions EA have made regarding UFC 4. That has nothing to do with exploitation. People are free to choose whether they like those changes or not, the direction the series appears to be headed and whether they'll buy the game. I haven't accused anyone of exploitation in any of these posts.

You appear to be taking my criticism very personally. It was never my intention to make this ugly or to be disrespectful towards anyone. I don't think I could have voiced my criticism and advice for those who actually do **** on the game every day on how to send a real message any more respectfully. Again, best of luck with your work, and the same to GPD at EA.

Not to worry, mate. There's no personal vendettas or hard feelings here. I get dismayed when I see passion from fans being directed in what, in my opinion, is the wrong direction for the very reasonable desires they have. And you have been quite respectful and mature in your comments, this last one most of all given the passion in my response

I just get a little tired of hearing the ole "It's not you, it's EA" shtick. I, along with everyone I work with, am EA for as long as I still work here.

There is always this unfounded sentiment that any design choice made to appeal to a more casual audience is detrimental to the hardcore. Or that, given their passion, the hardcore somehow have more right to be listened and appealed to. People get up in arms when different choices appear to appeal to different user groups, as if there's never any cross over or that helping one hurts another... and even if it sometimes does, are you really so unhappy that 10 other people will enjoy the game more but 1 will not? Is that a bad thing?

If we only cared about a single audience, with a single purpose, there wouldn't even be choices in the game. There would be a single way to play. No one is supposed to or expected to engage with the entire game, but rather find the part of it that they enjoy the most while maybe experiencing part of what makes other players enjoy it too. There's not even a consensus on what the 'hardcore' players want, or even what constitutes a 'hardcore' player...

[Skynet]

Re: Soooo, are you part of the 'data"?

I don't know who makes the big decisions. I don't know who allocates the budget, I don't know who decides that the main target will be the casuals and that the hardcores will buy the game anyway and nothing significant will be done for them. It is those people that I'm talking about. And I haven't accused them of being criminals or anything such. They are free to do whatever they want with their business and people are free to buy or not buy their games. But I am also free to voice my criticisms, opinions, pieces of advice, anything. They are your colleagues and it's nice that you have such a great working relationship. I, as a consumer, don't care about that and have a right to speak my mind on the product you guys are trying to sell. I'm not a fan of the turn this has taken.

But that's just it. That doesn't happen. You've built a falsehood in your head about what really happens, due either to lack of insight or willful ignorance.

If our budget was 50% bigger... we'd still be having this conversation. There'd still be improvement to be made. We'd still be catering to multiple audiences. We'd still be doing the best we could, and cutting out things that we want but simply can't get to in time. That balancing point is one of the biggest jobs leadership has to manage, "When do we stop". I wouldn't be able to do that. I would hate having to try and make that call. Engineers will always want more resources, and will never stop working if given the chance to keep going.

The only time the main audience for a game is hardcore users, is when that game is very niche. It has a very narrow user base and experience. Why is it that you think our including more people in the greater UFC experience means that we haven't provided you with an enjoyable place to call home too?

Imagine we made the perfect experience for you. Slim, direct, exactly what you wanted and then nothing else. Then we did the same for 10 other groups and put them all in one package. You'd now be a minority of the whole, but your experience is no lesser because of it. That's what we strive for. That's the goal. Adding more experiences and way to play is not taking away from yours with every choice we make. That is why you see thing like the simplified ground controls but also an incredible deep clinch system. That's why we have ranked and quick fight. Or tournament and KO mode. It's not always about you and your group, and that's okay. That doesn't mean it's never about you and yours.

Edit: No, I'm not being fully fair to you here. What we strive for is an ideal as much as what you ask for is. The reality is not so simple and there are times where appeasing one impacts the other. And to be fair, I believe those cases are most of what you're having grievances with. Many people on the team have had those exact same grievances, myself included. However, the narrative around how/why those come to pass is inaccurate and unhelpful, and I would hope that it does not continue.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Soooo, are you part of the 'data"?

Not to worry, mate. There's no personal vendettas or hard feelings here. I get dismayed when I see passion from fans being directed in what, in my opinion, is the wrong direction for the very reasonable desires they have. And you have been quite respectful and mature in your comments, this last one most of all given the passion in my response

I just get a little tired of hearing the ole "It's not you, it's EA" shtick. I, along with everyone I work with, am EA for as long as I still work here.

There is always this unfounded sentiment that any design choice made to appeal to a more casual audience is detrimental to the hardcore. Or that, given their passion, the hardcore somehow have more right to be listened and appealed to. People get up in arms when different choices appear to appeal to different user groups, as if there's never any cross over or that helping one hurts another... and even if it sometimes does, are you really so unhappy that 10 other people will enjoy the game more but 1 will not? Is that a bad thing?

If we only cared about a single audience, with a single purpose, there wouldn't even be choices in the game. There would be a single way to play. No one is supposed to or expected to engage with the entire game, but rather find the part of it that they enjoy the most while maybe experiencing part of what makes other players enjoy it too. There's not even a consensus on what the 'hardcore' players want, or even what constitutes a 'hardcore' player...

Actually I'd like for the game to be played by as many people as possible, casual fans included. I'd love it if there was something for everyone to sink their teeth in, hard. More depth. I hope the series acquires that depth and hopefully as fast as possible. But I think it's far from it right now, unfortunately. Still, I haven't seen the finished article so the jury is still out as to how far exactly.

As for the EA/Dev thing...I understand. You are EA and given your love for your work it's understandable that you would take it personally. In my edited previous post I tried to specify what I meant to the best of my abilities. Actually I don't want to praise or damn individuals because the truth is I don't know who does what exactly. So whoever feels what I said applies to them — that's for you.

Anyway, while we disagree on a lot of things, I appreciate that the conversation concludes in a civil manner (I hope you see it that way, at least).

[MacGowan]

Re: Soooo, are you part of the 'data"?

People get so hung up on this magical entity known as 'EA'. What do you think EA is? Some machine with literal cogs and pistons that whirs away, making 100% cold and inhuman decisions that do nothing but gain short-term profit?

That is the gravest logical fallacy I’ve seen you pull, Skynet. Anyone could make the same defence about any corporation. They are all made up of normal human beings who want nothing more than to support their families and perhaps add something to the world. But that doesn’t mean the sum equals its parts.

Sometimes there are choices made for business reasons, but that doesn't mean those choices are harmful to players...

The company you work for is actively lobbying (through ESA) politicians to keep micro-transactions legal, even though several countries in the EU (and the world) have labeled it gambling and shown clear data that adolescents are involved in spending large amounts of money and a link to gambling addiction. You don’t then get to say “whoops, we all have names.” so does insert-the-worst-corporation-you-can-think-of-here. A CEO job is to make money for their shareholders, not to make a good game. We judge EA for its actions, not the intent of its workers.

Honestly, the level of willful ignorance you and GPD have shown to the critisism you have received here is baffling to me.

[Counter Punch]

Re: Soooo, are you part of the 'data"?

Lot of big egos swinging around in this thread, as usual.

[Therebelyell626]

Re: Soooo, are you part of the 'data"?

Well I am...

People get so hung up on this magical entity known as 'EA'. What do you think EA is? Some machine with literal cogs and pistons that whirs away, making 100% cold and inhuman decisions that do nothing but gain short-term profit?

No. It's people. It is a large group of people, who share similar passions and vision and a desire to make quality and engaging experiences for the millions of people who will play our games. I have never even talked to or heard of, let alone interacted with, 95% of the people that make up "The big evil EA monster". But I can tell you that almost everyone I have had the pleasure of working with is nothing more or less than a person who has a passion for making games.

Do you think the people making UFC, or any game, sit at their desks and wonder 'how can I maximize the chance of stranger #122432 paying EA $$ that I'll never see...'. No. We sit there thinking "Damn, I have 2 weeks... what's the best possible version of this feature that I can make. What experience do I think will be the most enjoyable for the millions of people who will spend time engaging with it." This is often followed by "Damnit.... if only I had another week I could make it even better". That's it. That's basically the whole process. And just so you know, no amount of time ever feels like it was 'enough'. We work on these games for years, and at the end we still say "Damn... if only I had 1 more week". There is no perfect, finished game these days. Not at this scale.

Sometimes we make the wrong call (looking at you, Star Wars Battlefront) and most times we honestly listen to our players and strive to do better (Reverting the SW loot boxes and having years of free DLC). Sometimes we try new things, because we want to know what "data" might come out of it. Sometimes we just have an artistic vision for what we want to spend the next 2-3 years of our lives working on. Sometimes we monetize content that could have been free, and sometimes we put out content for free that could be monetized (UFC has never charged a cent for the maany patches and DLC we've made). Sometimes there are choices made for business reasons, but that doesn't mean those choices are harmful to players...

I have never in my time as a person on this team or as part of this larger group constituting the business of EA, heard a single choice being made because it would exploit our players for our benefit. Has it happened in the past? I'm sure it has. As it has in damn near every industry known to humanity. Do those businesses last if they keep doing it? They sure as hell do not.

EA's most valuable asset is firstly the people working here every day, and we're well looked after in that regard. In fact, I've often been very pleasantly surprised and grateful for how much EA goes above and beyond for not only the employees, but the larger communities we as people are a part of. The second biggest asset is our player communities, and you can be damned sure we do everything we can to make the best experiences we can for them. We don't always get it right, and we don't create the ideal result for every single person, but we sure as hell try. That mentality goes from the boots on the ground, to the people at the top. I think so, anyway.

This post was amazing, and literally why this is my favorite dev team. This is coming from someone who didn’t really like UFC 3 or the direction it went in form 2. But all year I followed the threads and continuously thought “man I wish (insert publisher) was more like these guys”.

Good for you skynet, and thanks for giving us insight into what you guys do. I think people on this forum sometimes forget you guys are human beings to.

And to McGowan. So what? Name one company in the world that wouldn’t lobby Congress to keep a money machine like micro transactions running. I don’t live in a world where unicorns and fairy tales come true. If you want to do some good go start a non-profit. But it’s more “willfully ignorant“ to assume that trying to keep a profitable Component of your business from churning on is somehow “evil”. You don’t want your kids participating in what you consider child gambling? Good. Do your research and do not let them play games that feature components such as this. You don’t want your kids spending YOUR hard earned money on in game micro transactions? Good. Do your research and most of all tell little Timmy and little jessica to pound sand if the base game you paid $60 for is not enough for them. At some point parents have to take responsibility. People claim they want less government but then expect the government to regulate everything they can’t handle themselves

[aholbert32]

Re: Soooo, are you part of the 'data"?

But that's just it. That doesn't happen. You've built a falsehood in your head about what really happens, due either to lack of insight or willful ignorance.

If our budget was 50% bigger... we'd still be having this conversation. There'd still be improvement to be made. We'd still be catering to multiple audiences. We'd still be doing the best we could, and cutting out things that we want but simply can't get to in time. That balancing point is one of the biggest jobs leadership has to manage, "When do we stop". I wouldn't be able to do that. I would hate having to try and make that call. Engineers will always want more resources, and will never stop working if given the chance to keep going.

The only time the main audience for a game is hardcore users, is when that game is very niche. It has a very narrow user base and experience. Why is it that you think our including more people in the greater UFC experience means that we haven't provided you with an enjoyable place to call home too?

Imagine we made the perfect experience for you. Slim, direct, exactly what you wanted and then nothing else. Then we did the same for 10 other groups and put them all in one package. You'd now be a minority of the whole, but your experience is no lesser because of it. That's what we strive for. That's the goal. Adding more experiences and way to play is not taking away from yours with every choice we make. That is why you see thing like the simplified ground controls but also an incredible deep clinch system. That's why we have ranked and quick fight. Or tournament and KO mode. It's not always about you and your group, and that's okay. That doesn't mean it's never about you and yours.

Edit: No, I'm not being fully fair to you here. What we strive for is an ideal as much as what you ask for is. The reality is not so simple and there are times where appeasing one impacts the other. And to be fair, I believe those cases are most of what you're having grievances with. Many people on the team have had those exact same grievances, myself included. However, the narrative around how/why those come to pass is inaccurate and unhelpful, and I would hope that it does not continue.

I HATE to disagree with one of my favorite devs publicaly but I have to address this a little.

"Why is it that you think our including more people in the greater UFC experience means that we haven't provided you with an enjoyable place to call home too?"

To use your example, we may all be in the same home but my cousin "Casual Fan" looks like he has a much nicer room than I do as a "hardcore fan" right now.

This isnt directed at you because you are the AI dev but the CAF situation is a prime example. Hardcore fans have been asking for an expanded CAF suite for 4 yrs. Now the team did add to the CAF suite....new tattoos, hairstyles etc. But they also took away from it. I cant speak on all of it because it hasnt been fully announced but one thing they took away was the ability to edit movesets/stats/perks from the CAFs.

Now that feature isnt one that really affects anyone but hardcore fans. So when someone sees that you can put clown wigs or wrestling headgear on but cant specifically determine what kind of fighter he is (down to specific moves etc.)...its kind of clear who EA or the UFC devs that make the decisions are targeting.

There are other areas that I could mention to but you get my point.

I get the frustration that OSers are showing. ****, I predicted it and told people directly months ago. Some of it is an overreaction but some of it...is indefensible.

Finally, I think people use "EA" because this situation seems to be occuring in all of their sports games. What mode do hardcore sim Madden fans play most? Franchise mode. What mode has barely been improved the last 5 yrs?....Franchise mode. To the point where gamers had a top 10 trending topic a few weeks ago "Fix Madden Franchise".

What mode do hardcore sim Fifa fans play most? Career mode. What mode has barely improved the last 5 yrs?....Career mode.

Eventually you have to start listening when someone repeatedly shows you something through their actions. EA as a company is showing what they prioritize through who it targets with their game improvements.